Serious Research into Ghosts?

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, openozy said:

Another Quack.Do you actually have any input into threads or do you just like putting up other people's garbage that you have googled?.I doubt anyone with any knowledge of the paranormal would be influenced by suggestion.

People with knowledge of the paranormal.

That aspect is never factored in regarding investigation, but I have little doubt it accounts for most if not all of "the paranormal"

Hubris excludes the most obvious common denominator.

I've buried 5 friends and family in the last 10 years. I've noticed this myself. People who want to believe will see something. A shadow, a sign, anything they can shoehorn into their belief. 

[openozy]

1 hour ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

This man is actually interested in studying paranormal claims. 

 

So,he obviously has no insight of this,and probably never will.

 

1 hour ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

The power of suggestion is a well known occurrence. If you are unaware of that fact, I suggest you do some research on it.

It may work with gullible fools.You may be impressed with book smart people,I'd rather talk to the people who have lived it.

[openozy]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

I've buried 5 friends and family in the last 10 years. I've noticed this myself. People who want to believe will see something. A shadow, a sign, anything they can shoehorn into their belief. 

They are people grabbing at straws,the same people who look to a religion for guidance,I have no problem with this if it gives them some peace of mind,just don't confuse that with paranormal experiences.

[psyche101]

16 minutes ago, openozy said:

So,he obviously has no insight of this,and probably never will.

Seems a bit harsh to bag someone for genuinely trying?

Quote

It may work with gullible fools.You may be impressed with book smart people,I'd rather talk to the people who have lived it.

My own family has spoken of such experiences, amongst them high level council accountants and air force officers. Some shocked about my atheism. I'm not saying one has to be stupid to believe in the paranormal, but there's definitely bias involved through culture, upbringing and the individual. Also, ignorance isn't stupidity, deliberate ignorance is.

Edited January 7, 2020 by psyche101

[psyche101]

6 minutes ago, openozy said:

They are people grabbing at straws,the same people who look to a religion for guidance,I have no problem with this if it gives them some peace of mind,just don't confuse that with paranormal experiences.

With all due respect, what exactly is the difference?

[openozy]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

Seems a bit harsh to bag someone for genuinely trying?

 I don't think so,I hate messers and try-hards

 

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

My own family has spoken of such experiences, amongst them high level council accountants and air force officers

Well why do you find it so hard to fathom?

[openozy]

6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

With all due respect, what exactly is the difference?

Believing in something and experiencing something seem different to me.

[psyche101]

1 minute ago, openozy said:

 I don't think so,I hate messers and try-hards

I think you would be better of showing why his claims are incorrect rather than just slating them and character assassination. 

Just a suggestion.

1 minute ago, openozy said:

Well why do you find it so hard to fathom?

Because I was brought up with them. I know what we were raised to believe. Hollow superstitions. And I can't unsee the science that negates those old wives tales 

That's what I'm saying. Individuals who have such beliefs tend to have backgrounds built on such beliefs, and don't have a strong understanding of leading edge scientific observation and discovery. Most people read a newspaper and possibly the astrology column, not the latest papers in science. I et how that s normal, but it also explains a lot. People who tend to put so much investment into these cultural beliefs tend to also he suspicious of science, even though not well enough versed to logically make that conclusion.

There seems to be more in common with people who support the paranormal than there is consistency of paranormal claims. An obvious common denominator entirely ignored on the basis of hubris. 

[psyche101]

11 minutes ago, openozy said:

Believing in something and experiencing something seem different to me.

What about the interpretation though?

That's where people really disagree.

[openozy]

9 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I think you would be better of showing why his claims are incorrect rather than just slating them and character assassination. 

I didn't say they were incorrect,just that he has no insight eg it's like a person reading up on breeding cattle then trying to educate a famer who has been breeding cattle for generations.

 

12 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Because I was brought up with them. I know what we were raised to believe. Hollow superstitions. And I can't unsee the science that negates those old wives tales 

That's what I'm saying. Individuals who have such beliefs tend to have backgrounds built on such beliefs, and don't have a strong understanding of leading edge scientific observation and discovery. Most people read a newspaper and possibly the astrology column, not the latest papers in science. I et how that s normal, but it also explains a lot. People who tend to put so much investment into these cultural beliefs tend to also he suspicious of science, even though not well enough versed to logically make that conclusion.

There seems to be more in common with people who support the paranormal than there is consistency of paranormal claims. An obvious common denominator entirely ignored on the basis of hubris. 

Not very respectful to your family but still nothing to do with the paranormal,so I can't see what your on about,sounds like religious beliefs.

[openozy]

17 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

What about the interpretation though?

That's where people really disagree.

I think the main difference is that the paranormal is reality and unique for each individual where religion is a story in a book they expect people to blindly follow.

[psyche101]

8 minutes ago, openozy said:

I didn't say they were incorrect,just that he has no insight eg it's like a person reading up on breeding cattle then trying to educate a famer who has been breeding cattle for generations.

There's still going to be useful input from both sides 

That's why farmers send their sons to Ag college. They don't just pass down what they know, they allow for improvement.

8 minutes ago, openozy said:

Not very respectful to your family but still nothing to do with the paranormal,so I can't see what your on about,sounds like religious beliefs.

I honestly don't see how it is disrespectful. I love them dearly and are there for them at any moment. I'm spending the day with my little sister tomorrow in fact, just to hang out. I have moved past our cultural upbringing and improved my knowledge. My father's death actually prompted me to search long and hard on the subject. I came away rather jaded.

My sister claims to have seen my father after his death, and both keep saying how my recently deceased brothers "energy" is around them all the time. Does that qualify as paranormal claims or religious beliefs to you? Neither are sold on the Bible as an accurate document.

[psyche101]

11 minutes ago, openozy said:

I think the main difference is that the paranormal is reality and unique for each individual where religion is a story in a book they expect people to blindly follow.

I don't see religion as that conforming these days. Most people seem to have their own interpretation, some entirely ignore the OT. Most seem to cherry pick it and follow their own idea, in the west at least. Spiritual seems to be the popular buzz word these days.

How can the paranormal be individual for each person if it's a real thing?

[openozy]

10 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

My sister claims to have seen my father after his death, and both keep saying how my recently deceased brothers "energy" is around them all the time. Does that qualify as paranormal claims or religious beliefs to you?

Your sister/s sound open to this so they experience it,yes, paranormal but not dark.I don't think it's a matter of belief just not shutting yourself out.

[openozy]

17 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

There's still going to be useful input from both sides 

That's why farmers send their sons to Ag college. They don't just pass down what they know, they allow for improvement.

True and with new farming methods it's a good idea,as long as the son doesn't think he knows it all as a year of hands on experience is worth ten years of reading.

[openozy]

21 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

How can the paranormal be individual for each person if it's a real thing?

It's how your mind interprets it,thats all I can say,I don't know it all, nobody does.I think people build a wall in their minds(to survive ) and that's good but if you can let that wall down and risk it all,you will see.You need to be able to put it back up to protect yourself sometimes,as I do.In these moments you are shut out and feel safe but I like taking risks to see it all.

[psyche101]

8 hours ago, openozy said:

Your sister/s sound open to this so they experience it,yes, paranormal but not dark.I don't think it's a matter of belief just not shutting yourself out.

Same family, brought up on the same beliefs. I didn't shut it out, I went looking for it 

If there is something tangible to the paranormal, then mindset shouldn't matter, if dependant on the individual, it simply has to be the individual. That's the only logical conclusion.

[psyche101]

8 hours ago, openozy said:

True and with new farming methods it's a good idea,as long as the son doesn't think he knows it all as a year of hands on experience is worth ten years of reading.

Then there's every good reason to consider the link in the argument before judging it, don't you agree?

[psyche101]

8 hours ago, openozy said:

It's how your mind interprets it,thats all I can say,I don't know it all, nobody does.I think people build a wall in their minds(to survive ) and that's good but if you can let that wall down and risk it all,you will see.You need to be able to put it back up to protect yourself sometimes,as I do.In these moments you are shut out and feel safe but I like taking risks to see it all.

I don't think it's a wall. I really don't. If something is valid, nothing holds it back. 

I think people see what they want to see. I was recently seeing someone who told me to look for certain signs. And they were found. A coin on the floor. A feather. All that stuff. It's all very explainable though. It certainly was in my case anyway. Yet this other person saw it as amazing. People interpret what they want to interpret. All I'm seeing is people convince themselves of the most silly things to maintain an irrational belief.

[openozy]

17 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I don't think it's a wall. I really don't. If something is valid, nothing holds it back. 

I think people see what they want to see. I was recently seeing someone who told me to look for certain signs. And they were found. A coin on the floor. A feather. All that stuff. It's all very explainable though. It certainly was in my case anyway. Yet this other person saw it as amazing. People interpret what they want to interpret. All I'm seeing is people convince themselves of the most silly things to maintain an irrational belief.

If it's easily explainable it's most likely not paranormal imo.

[openozy]

18 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Then there's every good reason to consider the link in the argument before judging it, don't you agree?

I have no interest in proving the paranormal with experiments,I already know.

Edited January 8, 2020 by openozy

[openozy]

17 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Same family, brought up on the same beliefs. I didn't shut it out, I went looking for it 

If there is something tangible to the paranormal, then mindset shouldn't matter, if dependant on the individual, it simply has to be the individual. That's the only logical conclusion.

It's all about mindset.You sound a bit like a ghost hunter,running around looking everywhere when its all around you.

[psyche101]

7 hours ago, openozy said:

If it's easily explainable it's most likely not paranormal imo.

In my case it was, that's the point here. Despite that, another person was disappointed I didn't take said instances as a sign. They were convinced I was just being closed minded despite the obvious.

7 hours ago, openozy said:

I have no interest in proving the paranormal with experiments,I already know.

I beg to differ. I would say you have a conclusion that you are satisfied with. IMHO, if you "knew" it would be knowledge you could transfer, not trying to be rude, that's just how it is. Nobody can even define "non-physical" any further than the word suggests. It's just an idea of a concept. Physics denies life after death. There's just a lot more real world reliable information supporting the very opposite of what you're saying is very "real" (but not real?). Why would physics be wrong? Why should one genuinely doubt it?

7 hours ago, openozy said:

It's all about mindset.You sound a bit like a ghost hunter,running around looking everywhere when its all around you.

That's what I'm saying. Mindset. If one wants to see signs they will. The aforementioned coin on the ground was below a short shelf that I keep loose change on. The feather was a chicken feather. We have chickens, and they come inside sometimes. It seems to rather amuse my sister's when they visit. They ruffle themselves out and shake loose dirt in circles, and feathers come off. It's actually bloody annoying.

See easily explainable, yet I'm considered closed minded to these so called obvious signs?

Edited January 8, 2020 by psyche101

[openozy]

24 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That's what I'm saying. Mindset. If one wants to see signs they will. The aforementioned coin on the ground was below a short shelf that I keep loose change on. The feather was a chicken feather. We have chickens, and they come inside sometimes.

People look for signs when someone close passes over,something tangible and if they see something they believe is a message and it comforts them,its a beautiful thing that you wouldn't take from them.I get comfort from the knowledge that I will see them again when my time comes.I've had them come to me in dreams,very vivid,not like normal dreams.I've seen ghosts,which I believe are just glimpses of the past on re-run and I've experienced poltergeist and demon type entities which I believe are not human souls and never were.You are not experiencing anything as your mindset is they don't exist,sometimes I wish my mind was set on that mode.

[psyche101]

9 hours ago, openozy said:

People look for signs when someone close passes over,something tangible and if they see something they believe is a message and it comforts them,its a beautiful thing that you wouldn't take from them.

I consider that false hope, I have no regard for false hope. 

Quote

Iget comfort from the knowledge that I will see them again when my time comes.I've had them come to me in dreams,very vivid,not like normal dreams.I've seen ghosts,which I believe are just glimpses of the past on re-run and I've experienced poltergeist and demon type entities which I believe are not human souls and never were.

As much as you don't adhere to religion, that's where those concepts come from. 

Your beliefs are based on superstitions. I just can't work with that. Facts provide answers with better support and foundation. I can trust them and their origins.

Quote

Youare not experiencing anything as your mindset is they don't exist,sometimes I wish my mind was set on that mode.

What about when I was very open to this in my younger years and went seeking it? Still, I saw interpretation, not actual unexplained events. I honestly feel that it is far more likely that the claimant creates the experience. It's the only logical solution that ticks all boxes. 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by psyche101