US betrays Kurdish Allies

[Farmer77]

2 minutes ago, and then said:

The point I attempted to make was that she seems hell-bent now on pushing the Impeachment and was shutting down the reporter's question to show who was "driving the bus" so to speak.  It's a valid point the reporter made and I've heard others make it as well. 

No its not a valid point at all. That argument is yet another version of "Trump is above the law" .

An election does not negate the Constitution.

[Tatetopa]

25 minutes ago, and then said:

I appreciate the tutorial though, I think you may have missed the point, or maybe I misunderstand yours  . The point I attempted to make was that she seems hell-bent now on pushing the Impeachment and was shutting down the reporter's question to show who was "driving the bus" so to speak.  It's a valid point the reporter made and I've heard others make it as well.  The idea of attempting to undo the will of the electorate over an issue that is FAR from being any kind of crisis when 13 months away the choice could be left, more legitimately, to the voters seems to be obviously politically driven.  

Sorry if I was pedantic.Maybe Nancy was trying to stall to the next election, the her own parties pressure to impeach got too great.

[+and-then]

16 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Sorry if I was pedantic.Maybe Nancy was trying to stall to the next election, the her own parties pressure to impeach got too great.

Does that account for how quickly she turned on the issue?  I have to wonder.  Remember she had been talking it down consistently and avoiding the topic altogether for weeks then, overnight she was on board.  Something changed other than AOC braying like a jackass.  I just wish I knew what it was.  I intensely dislike the old bird but I have to admit that anyone that stays around long enough to get THAT job, knows a thing or two about how to read the wind.  She has to know this is alosing effort so what makes it worth the risk to her newby, Red state Representatives from 2018?  I think someone hears something on the tracks and know the train is comin'.  They need a diversion, pronto.  My 2c

[Grim Reaper 6]

13 hours ago, joc said:

mmmm hmmm....and what do you call Obama pulling out of Iraq? 

President Trump didn't start this situation....you are on thin ice there brother!  

President Trump was on thin ice for a very long time in his Foreign Polcy concerning Syria, While he didn't start the situation in Syriait it certainly became his responsibility when he became President, just more proof of hie Brilliance. Like I said, I don't understand why people are using the words Cease Fire that is not what Turkey is calling it.

Turkey has only given the Kurds a few days to pull out of the contested areas. Then it all starts again, if President Trump had thought this through before his knee jerk reaction it could all have ended in a much different way.

You know Trump keeps saying that he is a Genius and that he is Brilliant. I am still waiting for him to show these amazing traits, because to date all he has shown the world is his foolishness, I mean the guy is the laughing stock of the world as far as World Leaders are concerned.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Manwon Lender

[Black Red Devil]

1 hour ago, and then said:

I appreciate the tutorial though, I think you may have missed the point, or maybe I misunderstand yours  . The point I attempted to make was that she seems hell-bent now on pushing the Impeachment and was shutting down the reporter's question to show who was "driving the bus" so to speak.  It's a valid point the reporter made and I've heard others make it as well.  The idea of attempting to undo the will of the electorate over an issue that is FAR from being any kind of crisis when 13 months away the choice could be left, more legitimately, to the voters seems to be obviously politically driven.  

 

So what are you suggesting?  If there's an impeachable offense, let the crook carry on and skip to the elections instead because people should decide if he's a crook or not?  Imagine if justice systems worked that way, the rich could bribe themselves out of all sorts of crimes.  Hmmm, hang on.....

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

4 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

No its not a valid point at all. That argument is yet another version of "Trump is above the law" .

An election does not negate the Constitution.

I agree, Farmer, Trump is not above the law, he is not a democrat.

Now, as soon as we can find what law Trump broke, then the dems can act on it! 

[+joc]

13 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

President Trump was on thin ice for a very long time in his Foreign Polcy concerning Syria, While he didn't start the situation in Syriait it certainly became his responsibility when he became President, just more proof of hie Brilliance. Like I said, I don't understand why people are using the words Cease Fire that is not what Turkey is calling it.

Turkey has only given the Kurds a few days to pull out of the contested areas. Then it all starts again, if President Trump had thought this through before his knee jerk reaction it could all have ended in a much different way.

You know Trump keeps saying that he is a Genius and that he is Brilliant. I am still waiting for him to show these amazing traits, because to date all he has shown the world is his foolishness, I mean the guy is the laughing stock of the world as far as World Leaders are concerned.

You know...you are right!  He should have followed Obama's lead...draw a line in the sand.   Worked well for Obama!  Assad killed more people with Chemical Weapons and Obama did....yeah...  N  O  T  H  I  N  G

We are not the worlds policemen.   The Liberal, Progressive, Leftists want to use our military and our money to police the world...but when it comes to defending our own borders...well...there aren't any borders to defend.  Where is the logic in that?  Why don't you just tell Turkey to erase their border with Syria and let everyone come and go as they please.  

When Obama pulled out of Iraq....   C  R  I  Q  U  E  T  S

Hypocrites occupy the Left

Edited October 19, 2019 by joc

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

2 hours ago, joc said:

We are not the worlds policemen.

 

Agreed! although the US acts like it is the world's police and the world *expects* us to act the police. And every time we touch the tar baby to avenge the bad guys, we end up in an infinite, fruitlessly descending rabbit hole. Korea, Viet Nam, Afghanistan. When will we ever learn?! 

2 hours ago, joc said:

   The Liberal, Progressive, Leftists want to use our military and our money to police the world...

 

hohoho!  Hardly just the liberals. First off, inre Syria, libs want us in there **only because Trump wants us out!** 
And the hardliner hawks are almost all repubs, conservs. Look at mad man "bombs" Bolton. Pompeo. All they could think about is an Iran invasion.

Then the Euros can't understand why the US cannot/does not supply health care to citizens or make higher education affordable. 

[+and-then]

18 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I mean the guy is the laughing stock of the world as far as World Leaders are concerned.

Do you believe he should base his decisions on the feedback he receives from leaders around the globe?  I agree that his apparent lack of deliberation on these decisions can lead to a lot of unnecessary stress and noise but the last thing he worries about is how other leaders feel about his choices for America.  It may be hard to believe but maybe, just maybe, MAGA isn't just a campaign slogan for him?  He repositioned about 50 troops from a corridor that Erdog had insisted on moving into.  Was it worth risking the lives of those men and potentially, the fracture of NATO just to please SOME of the world's leaders?  This kind of behavior from him might well stem in part from the fact that he knows without doubt that he will be vilified no matter what choices he makes.  

Erdog has just as big an ego but when he was told to give the Kurdish fighters a chance to pull back, what did he DO?  There is still sporadic fire but the assault, stopped.  If he begins killing civilians indiscriminately after the "pause", Turkey's economy will suffer, immediately.  I think I'll wait awhile and watch to see whether Trump's actions are worthy of any scorn.

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Then the Euros can't understand why the US cannot/does not supply health care to citizens or make higher education affordable.

That's why I LONG ago stopped being bothered by the opinions of those spineless, effete snobs.  When they grow a pair and start funding their own military I will take what they say with a bit of respect.  Until then, they can pound sand.

[+joc]

2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

Agreed! although the US acts like it is the world's police and the world *expects* us to act the police. And every time we touch the tar baby to avenge the bad guys, we end up in an infinite, fruitlessly descending rabbit hole. Korea, Viet Nam, Afghanistan. When will we ever learn?! 

 

hohoho!  Hardly just the liberals. First off, inre Syria, libs want us in there **only because Trump wants us out!** 
And the hardliner hawks are almost all repubs, conservs. Look at mad man "bombs" Bolton. Pompeo. All they could think about is an Iran invasion.

Then the Euros can't understand why the US cannot/does not supply health care to citizens or make higher education affordable. 

And then you have Hawks like Lindsey Graham.  Not saying this is his reason...but...there is an awful lot of money in fighting wars...an awful, awful, lot of moolah...to be skimmed off the top...

[Unusual Tournament]

5 hours ago, joc said:

You know...you are right!  He should have followed Obama's lead...draw a line in the sand.   Worked well for Obama!  Assad killed more people with Chemical Weapons and Obama did....yeah...  N  O  T  H  I  N  G

We are not the worlds policemen.   The Liberal, Progressive, Leftists want to use our military and our money to police the world...but when it comes to defending our own borders...well...there aren't any borders to defend.  Where is the logic in that?  Why don't you just tell Turkey to erase their border with Syria and let everyone come and go as they please.  

When Obama pulled out of Iraq....   C  R  I  Q  U  E  T  S

Hypocrites occupy the Left

A whole rant on Syria and Obama and not a mention of ISIS. Replacing dictators doesn't always work out for the best. Iraq and Libya are prime examples and now Syria. If Obama had gotten rid of Assad then ISIS would be ruling in Syria. Trump had piggybacked a ride on the shoulders of a great president. 

Bush Jr should have left Saddam in power. Blame Bush for Iraq. Instead we have Iran calling the shots today. crickets !

FYI being the worlds policeman is what made America great. You used it a influence to increase trade. You used it to keep enemies at bay. You used it to control and use valuable resources. 

[Unusual Tournament]

31 minutes ago, and then said:

That's why I LONG ago stopped being bothered by the opinions of those spineless, effete snobs.  When they grow a pair and start funding their own military I will take what they say with a bit of respect.  Until then, they can pound sand.

It looks like the euro's will finally move on into that space soon enough to the detriment of the U.S. You see once Europe grows a pair and they learn the language of muscle they will make their own foreign and trade policy. Meaning that the U.S. will not be able to control a federation greater n size than America. China trade will increase and Russia will be brought into the defence equation. Of course why would this upset Trump but it will certainly work as a negative for America in years to come. Trump is the Nero of his age. He will burn it all down and the republican mob will cheer. 

In short. America has just lost an empire. 

[+and-then]

36 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

You used it a influence to increase trade. You used it to keep enemies at bay. You used it to control and use valuable resources. 

Sounds familiar, what?  I can hear the lovely, stirring strains of RULE BRITANNIA!  

 

[Unusual Tournament]

10 minutes ago, and then said:

Sounds familiar, what?  I can hear the lovely, stirring strains of RULE BRITANNIA!  

 

What you don't agree ?

[+and-then]

7 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

What you don't agree ?

No, it is totally true.  I was just pointing out that American behavior in the role of apex predator today is strikingly similar to what Britain did in its day and to the behavior of the next top dog in the world.  It's because that is what people and nations DO.

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, and then said:

No, it is totally true.  I was just pointing out that American behavior in the role of apex predator today is strikingly similar to what Britain did in its day and to the behavior of the next top dog in the world.  It's because that is what people and nations DO.

Wait I'm confused, So you agree with Trump surrendering top dog status or you don't ?

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

Wait I'm confused, So you agree with Trump surrendering top dog status or you don't ?

 

The hard working Americans have paid $$Trillions to have War Hogs send the American military on wild goose chases that will inevitably kill many innocent people and do untold damage to the infrastructure in such countries as Viet Nam, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan etc., all in the name of "protecting America" and "spreading peace and democracy".  I do not find it a bragging point to say America has Top Dog status in these injustices.

Do you applaud the winner between the Blood and the Crypts for the killer of the most people? Me neither. NOr do you want to be that

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

The hard working Americans have paid $$Trillions to have War Hogs send the American military on wild goose chases that will inevitably kill many innocent people and do untold damage to the infrastructure in such countries as Viet Nam, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan etc., all in the name of "protecting America" and "spreading peace and democracy".  I do not find it a bragging point to say America has Top Dog status in these injustices.

Do you applaud the winner between the Blood and the Crypts for the killer of the most people? Me neither. NOr do you want to be that

The end justifies the means ? your example about gangbangers is little extreme. well i dont see America attacking democracies or tolerant and rights based country's. They haven't attacked Sweden or Austria. They attack chitholes that want to hurt others. I guess it all boils down to the politics of Saturday night. Where would you rather spend a Saturday night ? Libya, A'stan or America ?

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

14 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

The end justifies the means ? your example about gangbangers is little extreme. well i dont see America attacking democracies or tolerant and rights based country's. They haven't attacked Sweden or Austria. They attack chitholes that want to hurt others. I guess it all boils down to the politics of Saturday night. Where would you rather spend a Saturday night ? Libya, A'stan or America ?

There is truth to what you say (politics) and some that is not so true - specifically, " i dont see America attacking democracies ".

Perhaps you would like to see how America and England totally dismantled peaceful democracy in Iran. 1953 Iranian coup d'état - Wiki Link

Quote

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup d'état (Persian: کودتای ۲۸ مرداد‎), was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project^[5] or "Operation Ajax") and the United Kingdom (under the name "Operation Boot").^[6][7][8][9] It was the first covert action of the United States to overthrow a foreign government during peacetime.^[10]

This is the operation where the US/UK staged the coup and installed the Shah of Iran, Reza Pahlavi, and a string of Shas in order to control Iran - and what they were most interested in controlling is a long story. Suffice it to say, in the end it did cause the Iranian people who were fed up with their Iran being controlled by Washington via a puppet to rise up and revolt, 1979.

I could go on and on about the damage this country has done to Iran and through it all, Americans are led to believe that it was those hostage taking moozies that are to blame for everything wrong with Iran! And let's face it, most Americans fell for that story because the Americans only heard the MSM version of it, which they were fed by the US State Department.

We have also severely tinkered with and gave aid to tyrants like Egypt/Mubarak and in Libya/Gaddafi, and others.

And I particularly like this: "They haven't attacked Sweden or Austria" Bet your Behind! White skinned Christians. 

I rest my case

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 hours ago, and then said:

Do you believe he should base his decisions on the feedback he receives from leaders around the globe?  I agree that his apparent lack of deliberation on these decisions can lead to a lot of unnecessary stress and noise but the last thing he worries about is how other leaders feel about his choices for America.  It may be hard to believe but maybe, just maybe, MAGA isn't just a campaign slogan for him?  He repositioned about 50 troops from a corridor that Erdog had insisted on moving into.  Was it worth risking the lives of those men and potentially, the fracture of NATO just to please SOME of the world's leaders?  This kind of behavior from him might well stem in part from the fact that he knows without doubt that he will be vilified no matter what choices he makes.  

Erdog has just as big an ego but when he was told to give the Kurdish fighters a chance to pull back, what did he DO?  There is still sporadic fire but the assault, stopped.  If he begins killing civilians indiscriminately after the "pause", Turkey's economy will suffer, immediately.  I think I'll wait awhile and watch to see whether Trump's actions are worthy of any scorn.

Yes he repositioned the US Troops in the corridor, but only after they had danger close Artillery coming into their areas. I think if the plan had been well thought out our soldiers and the Kurds should have been moved before the assault began. President Trump knew when the assault was going to begin and what areas Turkey planned to occupy. I mean first he green lighted the operation and then when placed under pressure he claims that he didn't, none of us know which is true. 

Sorry we don't agree on this issue, but that's just the way it goes.

[Grim Reaper 6]

11 hours ago, joc said:

You know...you are right!  He should have followed Obama's lead...draw a line in the sand.   Worked well for Obama!  Assad killed more people with Chemical Weapons and Obama did....yeah...  N  O  T  H  I  N  G

We are not the worlds policemen.   The Liberal, Progressive, Leftists want to use our military and our money to police the world...but when it comes to defending our own borders...well...there aren't any borders to defend.  Where is the logic in that?  Why don't you just tell Turkey to erase their border with Syria and let everyone come and go as they please.  

When Obama pulled out of Iraq....   C  R  I  Q  U  E  T  S

Hypocrites occupy the Left

I never said or thought we should be the worlds police force, I am also not an Obama fan. As far  as President Trump drawing a line in the sand, maybe he should have done so to get our soldiers out of the way. However,I think the result would have been nearly the same. Yes we do have borders to defend  and that is an important issue, but that doesn't apply to this thread, just like Obama doesn't. You really have away of drifting off topic, I think you should go back and watch some CNN so you can stay up to date.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Manwon Lender

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

President Trump knew when the assault was going to begin and what areas Turkey planned to occupy.

That would be correct.

The core issue went under the radar but the US and Turkey were trying to come to an agreement for a long while - too long, where the US cooperates with Turkey coming in and they establish some safe zone together. 

Talks broke down and finally, Erdog just said to Trump, we're not waiting any longer, we're coming in - or words to that effect.

that's somewhat of a recap on why the US got troops the heck out.

[Black Red Devil]

11 hours ago, and then said:

Do you believe he should base his decisions on the feedback he receives from leaders around the globe?  I agree that his apparent lack of deliberation on these decisions can lead to a lot of unnecessary stress and noise but the last thing he worries about is how other leaders feel about his choices for America.  It may be hard to believe but maybe, just maybe, MAGA isn't just a campaign slogan for him?  He repositioned about 50 troops from a corridor that Erdog had insisted on moving into.  Was it worth risking the lives of those men and potentially, the fracture of NATO just to please SOME of the world's leaders?  This kind of behavior from him might well stem in part from the fact that he knows without doubt that he will be vilified no matter what choices he makes.  

Erdog has just as big an ego but when he was told to give the Kurdish fighters a chance to pull back, what did he DO?  There is still sporadic fire but the assault, stopped.  If he begins killing civilians indiscriminately after the "pause", Turkey's economy will suffer, immediately.  I think I'll wait awhile and watch to see whether Trump's actions are worthy of any scorn.

Yeah, it isn't just a slogan campaign but he's carrying on a legacy left by many Presidents, Republicans & Democrats, before him and their philosophy or better, Mission/Vision, was to propose and bring Democracy and Freedom to the world.  You know, Fascism wasn't adherent to this type of philosophy and Communism was a plague on society.  With his MAGA he proposed to make America Great Again, I didn't get the impression this meant the country should hole-up and ignore the world around.  It just simply meant improve Americas economy and eliminate weaknesses from previous administrations, whatever they were and nevertheless, despite these weaknesses he saw, whether you like it or not, America still had the most powerful Economy and Military in the world under Obama, surprise, surprise.  

If most Americans prefer he did pull the country back from all international affairs and concentrate solely on American interests then they need to accept the consequences because the other side have their own interests at stake as well.  As an example, NATO is a waste of money for the US?   OK, close all the strategic bases and when you have a crisis that impacts on American interests around the world send ships and planes from American ports and air strips.  See how cheaper and quicker that is.  But you can't have it both ways.  You think keeping the UK, Germany, France and Italy (to mention the most progressed economies and militaries in the EU and NATO) as reliable allies isn't a benefit?  Ignore history and make them your antagonists at your own detriment.  You see, Trump is the typical hypocritical businessman who can't recognise the values and interests of others.  He only sees his own interests and the costs to his business.  You can't run a Govt like this, especially when you're siting in a powerful chair that has been promoting freedom and democracy around the world for 70 years and most of the times by placing themselves in strategic conditions thru quid pro quo for the interests of both countries.  Sometimes you have to give to receive in the long run. 

As a politician and worse, as the POTUS, he is out of his depth and only die hard Republicans prefer to hang onto this burden on American interests called Trump, rather than loose the top seat to the opposition.  It's an absolute suicidal mindset that promotes what is best for the Party rather than what is best for the country.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Black Red Devil

[+joc]

11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I think you should go back and watch some CNN so you can stay up to date.

Now that's funny!