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Setton

US betrays Kurdish Allies

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The Truman show
59 minutes ago, Setton said:

A fighting chance? The Kurds are equipped to go up against a local militia force - they have no air force or anti-aircraft capability. Turkey is a NATO force and will roll right over them. 

...without air support the Kurds will do what they always do and melt away into the hills and mountains.  

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The Truman show
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

They have a fighting chance and we didn't change their citizenship status as you did to turn the Hong Kong people over to a totalitarian state.

Don't use the word 'we' as it denotes that all of America made and supports this decision. It doesn't. Just Trump and his way of protecting his business interests in Turkey.  

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The Truman show
6 hours ago, joc said:

It is true that all of those people over there have been killing each other for centuries.  Why is it the job of the USA to police the entire middle east?  It isn't.

Look what happened when we tried to police S. Vietnam...12 years...50,000+ American Soldiers dead and hundreds of thousands wounded.  

If we want to stop aggression in Syria...we should go to war with Russia.  Anyone for that?

And what about  Congo's civil war?   There is definite ongoing ethnic cleansing massacres happening as we speak.  Should we have troops in the Congo policing that debacle?

And what about Boko Haram in Nigeria...should we send troops to Nigeria?  

 

When America had an interest in defeating a sworn enemy it approached its ally, Turkey and was not only refused help but Turkey was found out to be supporting and suppling this sworn enemy of the United States. So who stepped up to help America? It was the Kurds. The very same that Trump betrayed. 

You don't see the problem? 

Edited by Captain Risky
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Setton
30 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

...without air support the Kurds will do what they always do and melt away into the hills and mountains.  

I don't think that will work for them this time. Turkey has been absolutely hammering the PKK in Turkey and Iraq for months. Caves will only do so much if you're up against drones. 

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The Truman show
4 minutes ago, Setton said:

I don't think that will work for them this time. Turkey has been absolutely hammering the PKK in Turkey and Iraq for months. Caves will only do so much if you're up against drones. 

You have a point. Technology has progressed. But you can't make 50 million Kurds just disappear. Or can you.

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Setton
2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

You have a point. Technology has progressed. But you can't make 50 million Kurds just disappear. Or can you.

One things for sure: Erdoğan will do his very best to. 

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The Truman show
1 minute ago, Setton said:

One things for sure: Erdoğan will do his very best to. 

There is no guarantee that Turkey will get what it wants outta stacking the demographics in its favour and forcing the Kurds out of the border regions. Even with Trump abandoning the Kurds its a long game. Turkey will be trapped there for a very long time. 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Setton said:

A fighting chance? The Kurds are equipped to go up against a local militia force - they have no air force or anti-aircraft capability. Turkey is a NATO force and will roll right over them. 

Stay tuned for further developments. We"'ve been fighting local militia groups in Afghanistan for how many years now? 

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The Truman show
8 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Stay tuned for further developments. We"'ve been fighting local militia groups in Afghanistan for how many years now? 

Thats a valid point. Maybe the U.S. military is suppling intel to the Kurds to level the playing field. 

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Setton
55 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Stay tuned for further developments. We"'ve been fighting local militia groups in Afghanistan for how many years now? 

Yes and thousands and thousands of them have been killed. 

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, Setton said:

Yes and thousands and thousands of them have been killed. 

Yes and hundreds of Americans there and thousands in Iraq. What were the casualty figures for the Indian/Pakistani war precipated by your abrupt and unconditional wirhdrawal--even though Islamic people begged for their part of India to remain in the Empire? The same with Palestine. The sin of expediency was in full flower across the pond before we ate of it's fruit.

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joc
4 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

When America had an interest in defeating a sworn enemy it approached its ally, Turkey and was not only refused help but Turkey was found out to be supporting and suppling this sworn enemy of the United States. So who stepped up to help America? It was the Kurds. The very same that Trump betrayed. 

You don't see the problem? 

i see the Kurds as fighting for their own lives against ISIS...they are not exactly an 'ally'.  

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The Truman show
8 minutes ago, joc said:

i see the Kurds as fighting for their own lives against ISIS...they are not exactly an 'ally'.  

They could have at any time allied with the Russians or with Assad. They could have not fought or taken sides at all and had ISIS slaughter them like in Kobane. ISIS were being supplied by the Turks to kill them and the U.S. would have been directly supporting Turkey which was supporting ISIS. 

Part of the reason that Obama had a falling out with Erdogan. But one of the most overlooked aspects of this sad betrayal of the Kurds is that it was the Kurds that protected the Christians and Yazidids.

If things continue as they are two things will happen. The right wing Christians that support Trump will no longer because Turkey will destroy all Christian communities like it has already done in Turkey and ISIS will rear its ugly head again. What do you think is gonna happen to ISIS once the Turks take over?  

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joc
8 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

They could have at any time allied with the Russians or with Assad. They could have not fought or taken sides at all and had ISIS slaughter them like in Kobane. ISIS were being supplied by the Turks to kill them and the U.S. would have been directly supporting Turkey which was supporting ISIS. 

Part of the reason that Obama had a falling out with Erdogan. But one of the most overlooked aspects of this sad betrayal of the Kurds is that it was the Kurds that protected the Christians and Yazidids.

If things continue as they are two things will happen. The right wing Christians that support Trump will no longer because Turkey will destroy all Christian communities like it has already done in Turkey and ISIS will rear its ugly head again. What do you think is gonna happen to ISIS once the Turks take over?  

Nothing...ISIS is dead and gone...do you honestly think the Turks will fall over if ISIS tries to regain territory.

You are just repeating the Globalist Media Narrative.  It isn't accurate.  Not by far.

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The Truman show
1 minute ago, joc said:

Nothing...ISIS is dead and gone...do you honestly think the Turks will fall over if ISIS tries to regain territory.

You are just repeating the Globalist Media Narrative.  It isn't accurate.  Not by far.

What do you mean by the Turks falling over? ISIS is Turkish intelligence. 

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joc
Just now, Captain Risky said:

What do you mean by the Turks falling over? ISIS is Turkish intelligence. 

That is the most idiotic statement I've read today...where is YOUR proof of such idiocy?

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The Truman show
4 minutes ago, joc said:

That is the most idiotic statement I've read today...where is YOUR proof of such idiocy?

• An ISIS commander told The Washington Post on August 12, 2014: “Most of the fighters who joined us in the beginning of the war came via Turkey, and so did our equipment and supplies.”

 

• Kemal Kiliçdaroglu, head of the Republican People’s Party (CHP), produced a statementfrom the Adana Office of the Prosecutor on October 14, 2014 maintaining that Turkey supplied weapons to terror groups. He also produced interview transcripts from truck drivers who delivered weapons to the groups. According to Kiliçdaroglu, the Turkish government claims the trucks were for humanitarian aid to the Turkmen, but the Turkmen said no humanitarian aid was delivered.

• According to CHP Vice President Bulent Tezcan, three trucks were stopped in Adana for inspection on January 19, 2014. The trucks were loaded with weapons in Esenboga Airport in Ankara. The drivers drove the trucks to the border, where a MIT agent was supposed to take over and drive the trucks to Syria to deliver materials to ISIS and groups in Syria. This happened many times. When the trucks were stopped, MIT agents tried to keep the inspectors from looking inside the crates. The inspectors found rockets, arms, and ammunitions.

• Cumhuriyet reports that Fuat Avni, a preeminent Twitter user who reported on the December 17th corruption probe, that audio tapes confirm that Turkey provided financial and military aid to terrorist groups associated with Al Qaeda on October 12, 2014. On the tapes, Erdogan pressured the Turkish Armed Forces to go to war with Syria. Erdogan demanded that Hakan Fidan, the head of Turkey’s National Intelligence Agency (MIT), come up with a justification for attacking Syria.

• Hakan Fidan told Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, Yasar Guler, a senior defense official, and Feridun Sinirlioglu, a senior foreign affairs official: “If need be, I’ll send 4 men into Syria. I’ll formulate a reason to go to war by shooting 8 rockets into Turkey; I’ll have them attack the Tomb of Suleiman Shah.”

• Documents surfaced on September 19th, 2014 showing that the Saudi Emir Bender Bin Sultan financed the transportation of arms to ISIS through Turkey. A flight leaving Germany dropped off arms in the Etimesgut airport in Turkey, which was then split into three containers, two of which were given to ISIS and one to Gaza.

 

Turkey Provided Transport and Logistical Assistance to ISIS Fighters

 

 

• According to Radikal on June 13, 2014, Interior Minister Muammar Guler signed a directive: “According to our regional gains, we will help al-Nusra militants against the branch of PKK terrorist organization, the PYD, within our borders…Hatay is a strategic location for the mujahideen crossing from within our borders to Syria. Logistical support for Islamist groups will be increased, and their training, hospital care, and safe passage will mostly take place in Hatay…MIT and the Religious Affairs Directorate will coordinate the placement of fighters in public accommodations.”

 

• The Daily Mail reported on August 25, 2014 that many foreign militants joined ISIS in Syria and Iraq after traveling through Turkey, but Turkey did not try to stop them. This article describes how foreign militants, especially from the UK, go to Syria and Iraq through the Turkish border. They call the border the “Gateway to Jihad.” Turkish army soldiers either turn a blind eye and let them pass, or the jihadists pay the border guards as little as $10 to facilitate their crossing.

• Britain’s Sky News obtained documents showing that the Turkish government has stamped passports of foreign militants seeking to cross the Turkey border into Syria to join ISIS.

• The BBC interviewed villagers, who claim that buses travel at night, carrying jihadists to fight Kurdish forces in Syria and Iraq, not the Syrian Armed Forces.

• A senior Egyptian official indicated on October 9, 2014 that Turkish intelligence is passing satellite imagery and other data to ISIS.

 

Turkey Provided Training to ISIS Fighters

 

 

• CNN Turk reported on July 29, 2014 that in the heart of Istanbul, places like Duzce and Adapazari, have become gathering spots for terrorists. There are religious orders where ISIS militants are trained. Some of these training videos are posted on the Turkish ISIS propaganda website takvahaber.net. According to CNN Turk, Turkish security forces could have stopped these developments if they had wanted to.

 

• Turks who joined an affiliate of ISIS were recorded at a public gathering in Istanbul, which took place on July 28, 2014.

• A video shows an ISIS affiliate holding a prayer/gathering in Omerli, a district of Istanbul. In response to the video, CHP Vice President, MP Tanrikulu submitted parliamentary questions to the Minister of the Interior, Efkan Ala, asking questions such as, “Is it true that a camp or camps have been allocated to an affiliate of ISIS in Istanbul? What is this affiliate? Who is it made up of? Is the rumor true that the same area allocated for the camp is also used for military exercises?”

• Kemal Kiliçdaroglu warned the AKP government not to provide money and training to terror groups on October 14, 2014. He said, “It isn’t right for armed groups to be trained on Turkish soil. You bring foreign fighters to Turkey, put money in their pockets, guns in their hands, and you ask them to kill Muslims in Syria. We told them to stop helping ISIS. Ahmet Davutoglu asked us to show proof. Everyone knows that they’re helping ISIS.” (See HERE and HERE.)

• According to Jordanian intelligence, Turkey trained ISIS militants for special operations.

 

Turkey Offers Medical Care to ISIS Fighters

 

 

• An ISIS commander told the Washington Post on August 12, 2014, “We used to have some fighters — even high-level members of the Islamic State — getting treated in Turkish hospitals.”

 

• Taraf reported on October 12, 2014 that Dengir Mir Mehmet Fırat, a founder of the AKP, said that Turkey supported terrorist groups and still supports them and treats them in hospitals. “In order to weaken the developments in Rojova (Syrian Kurdistan), the government gave concessions and arms to extreme religious groups…the government was helping the wounded. The Minister of Health said something such as, it’s a human obligation to care for the ISIS wounded.”

• According to Taraf, Ahmet El H, one of the top commanders at ISIS and Al Baghdadi’s right hand man, was treated at a hospital in Sanliurfa, Turkey, along with other ISIS militants. The Turkish state paid for their treatment. According to Taraf’s sources, ISIS militants are being treated in hospitals all across southeastern Turkey. More and more militants have been coming in to be treated since the start of airstrikes in August. To be more specific, eight ISIS militants were transported through the Sanliurfa border crossing; these are their names: “Mustafa A., Yusuf El R., Mustafa H., Halil El M., Muhammet El H., Ahmet El S., Hasan H., [and] Salim El D.”

 

Turkey Supports ISIS Financially Through Purchase of Oil

 

 

• On September 13, 2014, The New York Times reported on the Obama administration’s efforts to pressure Turkey to crack down on ISIS extensive sales network for oil. James Phillips, a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, argues that Turkey has not fully cracked down on ISIS’s sales network because it benefits from a lower price for oil, and that there might even be Turks and government officials who benefit from the trade.

 

• Fehim Taştekin wrote in Radikal on September 13, 2014 about illegal pipelines transporting oil from Syria to nearby border towns in Turkey. The oil is sold for as little as 1.25 liras per liter. Taştekin indicated that many of these illegal pipelines were dismantled after operating for 3 years, once his article was published.

• According to Diken and OdaTV, David Cohen, a Justice Department official, says that there are Turkish individuals acting as middlemen to help sell ISIS’s oil through Turkey.

• On October 14, 2014, a German Parliamentarian from the Green Party accused Turkey of allowing the transportation of arms to ISIS over its territory, as well as the sale of oil.

 

Turkey Assists ISIS Recruitment

 

 

• Kemal Kiliçdaroğlu claimed on October 14, 2014 that ISIS offices in Istanbul and Gaziantep are used to recruit fighters. On October 10, 2014, the mufti of Konya said that 100 people from Konya joined ISIS 4 days ago. (See HERE and HERE.)

 

• OdaTV reports that Takva Haber serves as a propaganda outlet for ISIS to recruit Turkish-speaking individuals in Turkey and Germany. The address where this propaganda website is registered corresponds to the address of a school called Irfan Koleji, which was established by Ilim Yayma Vakfi, a foundation that was created by Erdogan and Davutoglu, among others. It is thus claimed that the propaganda site is operated from the school of the foundation started by AKP members.

• Minister of Sports, Suat Kilic, an AKP member, visited Salafi jihadists who are ISIS supporters in Germany. The group is known for reaching out to supporters via free Quran distributions and raising funds to sponsor suicide attacks in Syria and Iraq by raising money.

• OdaTV released a video allegedly showing ISIS militants riding a bus in Istanbul.

Turkish Forces Are Fighting Alongside ISIS

• On October 7, 2014, IBDA-C, a militant Islamic organization in Turkey, pledged support to ISIS. A Turkish friend who is a commander in ISIS suggests that Turkey is “involved in all of this” and that “10,000 ISIS members will come to Turkey.” A Huda-Par member at the meeting claims that officials criticize ISIS but in fact sympathize with the group (Huda-Par, the “Free Cause Party”, is a Kurdish Sunni fundamentalist political party). BBP member claims that National Action Party (MHP) officials are close to embracing ISIS. In the meeting, it is asserted that ISIS militants come to Turkey frequently to rest, as though they are taking a break from military service. They claim that Turkey will experience an Islamic revolution, and Turks should be ready for jihad. (See HERE and HERE.)

• Seymour Hersh maintains in the London Review of Books that ISIS conducted sarin attacks in Syria, and that Turkey was informed. “For months there had been acute concern among senior military leaders and the intelligence community about the role in the war of Syria’s neighbors, especially Turkey. Prime Minister Recep Erdogan was known to be supporting the al-Nusra Front, a jihadist faction among the rebel opposition, as well as other Islamist rebel groups. ‘We knew there were some in the Turkish government,’ a former senior US intelligence official, who has access to current intelligence, told me, ‘who believed they could get Assad’s nuts in a vice by dabbling with a sarin attack inside Syria – and forcing Obama to make good on his red line threat.”

• On September 20, 2014, Demir Celik, a Member of Parliament with the people’s democratic party (HDP) claimed that Turkish Special Forces fight with ISIS.

 

Turkey Helped ISIS in Battle for Kobani

 

 

• Anwar Moslem, Mayor of Kobani, said on September 19, 2014: “Based on the intelligence we got two days before the breakout of the current war, trains full of forces and ammunition, which were passing by north of Kobane, had an-hour-and-ten-to-twenty-minute-long stops in these villages: Salib Qaran, Gire Sor, Moshrefat Ezzo. There are evidences, witnesses, and videos about this. Why is ISIS strong only in Kobane’s east? Why is it not strong either in its south or west? Since these trains stopped in villages located in the east of Kobane, we guess they had brought ammunition and additional force for the ISIS.” In the second article on September 30, 2014, a CHP delegation visited Kobani, where locals claimed that everything from the clothes ISIS militants wear to their guns comes from Turkey. (See HERE and HERE.)

 

• Released by Nuhaber, a video shows Turkish military convoys carrying tanks and ammunition moving freely under ISIS flags in the Cerablus region and Karkamis border crossing (September 25, 2014). There are writings in Turkish on the trucks.

• Salih Muslim, PYD head, claims that 120 militants crossed into Syria from Turkey between October 20th and 24th, 2014.

• According to an op-ed written by a YPG commander in The New York Times on October 29, 2014, Turkey allows ISIS militants and their equipment to pass freely over the border.

• Diken reported, “ISIS fighters crossed the border from Turkey into Syria, over the Turkish train tracks that delineate the border, in full view of Turkish soldiers. They were met there by PYD fighters and stopped.”

• A Kurdish commander in Kobani claims that ISIS militants have Turkish entry stamps on their passports.

• Kurds trying to join the battle in Kobani are turned away by Turkish police at the Turkey-Syrian border.

• OdaTV released a photograph of a Turkish soldier befriending ISIS militants.

 

Turkey and ISIS Share a Worldview

 

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joc
6 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:
• An ISIS commander told The Washington Post on August 12, 2014: “Most of the fighters who joined us in the beginning of the war came via Turkey, and so did our equipment and supplies.”

 

 

I believe nothing that the Washington Post reports.  Thanks for the wordy post though.

https://worldbeyondwar.org/turkey-supports-isis/

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu strongly deny complicity with ISIS

 

Edited by joc

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Up for consideration in all things Turkey for the US, we have two sizable air bases in Turkey (Incirlik, Izmir) and 6,500 troops.

I really think any actions Trump takes, economic or otherwise, have to be carefully weighed so as not to deteriorate the relationship the two have. Losing those air bases would be a huge loss.

 

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Setton
7 hours ago, joc said:

Nothing...ISIS is dead and gone...

You can't be that stupid. 

12,000 fighters ready to be broken out of camps while the Kurds are defending themselves against the Turks. Thousands already spread across Iraq, up against an under-strength and under-trained military. 

They're probably stronger now than they were back in 2012 and you think it's over? 

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Setton
7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes and hundreds of Americans there and thousands in Iraq. What were the casualty figures for the Indian/Pakistani war precipated by your abrupt and unconditional wirhdrawal--even though Islamic people begged for their part of India to remain in the Empire? The same with Palestine. The sin of expediency was in full flower across the pond before we ate of it's fruit.

So you're ambition is to be no better than a 200 year old, out-of-date, fallen Empire?

How sad to have so little confidence in yourself. 

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Hammerclaw
5 hours ago, Setton said:

So you're ambition is to be no better than a 200 year old, out-of-date, fallen Empire?

How sad to have so little confidence in yourself. 

We moved a few dozen troops, a few kilometers south of their previous position. Our political position, vis-à-vis the Turkish-Kurdish dispute was untenable. We neither approve nor condone their actions, but political circumstances being what they are, left us little choice. Strategically, the loss of Turkey would be devastating to NATO, and we have billions in military assets and infrastructure invested there.

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RavenHawk

Where's the UN?  If they don't act and put troops in there to keep the peace, then the organization has become inept (big surprise).  All the UN seems to be able to do is be critical of Israel.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
14 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Where's the UN?

LOLOL! sure.

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Setton
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

We moved a few dozen troops, a few kilometers south of their previous position. Our political position, vis-à-vis the Turkish-Kurdish dispute was untenable. We neither approve nor condone their actions, but political circumstances being what they are, left us little choice. Strategically, the loss of Turkey would be devastating to NATO, and we have billions in military assets and infrastructure invested there.

Oh look, its about money after all. Who'd have thought. 

You Americans are a ****ing disgrace. 

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