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Setton

US betrays Kurdish Allies

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RoofGardener
9 minutes ago, Setton said:

You see this word? 

You should look it up. 

Stop deflecting. Under WHAT imaginable circumstances would Syria or Russia invade Turkey ? You just brought that up as a sort of "straw man" to muddy the waters and cast "doubt by innuendo". 

Now stand in the corner with your nose against the wall. No supper for YOU, young man ! :td:

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Setton
3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Stop deflecting. Under WHAT imaginable circumstances would Syria or Russia invade Turkey ? You just brought that up as a sort of "straw man" to muddy the waters and cast "doubt by innuendo". 

Now stand in the corner with your nose against the wall. No supper for YOU, young man ! :td:

I brought it up as a genuine possible development of this conflict between Russia and a NATO member. 

But you wouldn't want to admit the glorious tangerine might have royally ****ed up now, would you? 

No, whatever the experts say, better just keep blindly defending him! 

FYI I used to teach a 9 year old who would put on a pretend adult voice to try and tell people off. You remind me of her. People laughed then too. 

Edited by Setton

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RoofGardener
Just now, Setton said:

I brought it up as a genuine possible development of this conflict between Russia and a NATO member. 

.....

The scenario you projected was not remotely realistic. WHY would Syria - or Russia - invade Turkey ?

You may as well ask what happens if China sends the entire Peoples Liberation Army though Afghanistan and Iran to attack Turkey ? 

Hey.. how about the Federated States of Micronesia ? They MIGHT send a war canoe to attack İskenderun Harbor ? Can't rule it out ! 

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godnodog
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I would NOT describe the Arab Kurds as being "pro-Western" ? They are (mostly) pro-Kurd, when they are not arguing among themselves. 

Well, they are pro-western because only the West has the power and the "Will" to help them create a nation-state, no one expectrs Russia to help them, so yes they are pro-western. 
Media in Pt also considers them pro-west, dont know how the US or UK or other countries portrait them.

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RavenHawk
21 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

And yet we are sending troops to Saudi Arabia.  That is not getting out of entanglements.

Things don’t happen overnight.  US Policy is like a big ship with a small rudder.  Change is small and incremental.  If we’re not going to be engaging in nation building, then we don’t need to be there.  This is a job for the UN.  Trump just put the responsibility of peace keeping into the hands of the regional players.  The world is watching them.  Personally, I would prefer that we go in and lay waste to everything.  Kick butt and take names, but our politicians do not have the will and what will that say to the world?  You can’t have it both ways.  Do you want to send your child to give their life for a Kurd?

 

The Kurds did not help us in Normandy, but as it turns out they did help in WWII against the Reich.  Kurds made up part of the iraqi forces fighting the Axis i the Middle East.  But really who cares.

As I said before, Poland was sacrificed for the larger peace.  Kurdistan existed long before any of the surrounding nations did.  You can google its territory.  Don’t you think they have a right to exist too?  They can’t exist unless you take territory from someone else.  I can see a region fighting for independence, but the Kurds are looking to annex major portions of 4 different countries.  I don’t think there is any concession there.  But what this will do, is unite Syria back into a nation.  The Western Kurds have made a deal with Assad?  It’s going to create different dynamics but they would be dynamics that Trump can better manipulate.

 

We should remember our major allies like the Saudis who played such a critical part in the destruction of the twin towers.  If not for them we might not have declared a war on terror and got bogged doew all across the middle east.  Thanks Saudi Arabia,  You are true friends.

That is being disingenuous don’t you think? Saudi Arabia isn’t like any normal nation.  There are many schisms.  You have the King and dozens of Princes.  They all have the authority to do whatever they please.  The only control that the King has to deal with that sometimes is by nefarious means.  But as long as Islam exists, we will always be at war with it.  We need influence in the region, SA is definitely a place to have it.  As long as we provide support by other means than occupation forces, we have a chance to change SA and reform Islam.  Jordan, Israel, and SA can form the beginning of a stable defense bloc that can counter Iran and Russia.

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Hammerclaw
37 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Things don’t happen overnight.  US Policy is like a big ship with a small rudder.  Change is small and incremental.  If we’re not going to be engaging in nation building, then we don’t need to be there.  This is a job for the UN.  Trump just put the responsibility of peace keeping into the hands of the regional players.  The world is watching them.  Personally, I would prefer that we go in and lay waste to everything.  Kick butt and take names, but our politicians do not have the will and what will that say to the world?  You can’t have it both ways.  Do you want to send your child to give their life for a Kurd?

 

 

 

 

 

As I said before, Poland was sacrificed for the larger peace.  Kurdistan existed long before any of the surrounding nations did.  You can google its territory.  Don’t you think they have a right to exist too?  They can’t exist unless you take territory from someone else.  I can see a region fighting for independence, but the Kurds are looking to annex major portions of 4 different countries.  I don’t think there is any concession there.  But what this will do, is unite Syria back into a nation.  The Western Kurds have made a deal with Assad?  It’s going to create different dynamics but they would be dynamics that Trump can better manipulate.

 

 

 

 

 

That is being disingenuous don’t you think? Saudi Arabia isn’t like any normal nation.  There are many schisms.  You have the King and dozens of Princes.  They all have the authority to do whatever they please.  The only control that the King has to deal with that sometimes is by nefarious means.  But as long as Islam exists, we will always be at war with it.  We need influence in the region, SA is definitely a place to have it.  As long as we provide support by other means than occupation forces, we have a chance to change SA and reform Islam.  Jordan, Israel, and SA can form the beginning of a stable defense bloc that can counter Iran and Russia.

 

It's not our job to reform Islam. I'm for pulling out of the region, creating power vacuums that Russia and Iran will get sucked into. Let them enjoy the benefits of the perpetual internecine warfare of the region. Let them bind their sons and daughters to exile serving the political will of their elite. The whole region is a trap, full of parasitical political entities more than willing to drain the lifeblood and wealth of any unwary nation that meddles too far within. We don't need it's oil, anymore, nor do we need to curry the favor of it's tribal entities. Let us leave and shake it's dust off our shoes, leave and let the place rot.

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

As long as we provide support by other means than occupation forces, we have a chance to change SA and reform Islam.  Jordan, Israel, and SA can form the beginning of a stable defense bloc that can counter Iran and Russia.

RavenHawk, I think that is a pipe dream.

What has our policy been with many communist nations including China?  Don't talk about human rights, just trade with them and they will reform and become more westernized all by themselves.   That has not worked too well.

We are not going to reform Islam, especially the hard line Saudi version.  A lot of Islamic countries lie Indonesia and Malaysia  have a much milder and more accepting form of Islam, but I doubt we could change them either.

And remind me why do we need influence in the region?

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Manwon Lender

I find it interesting that now President Trump is saying he never gave Turkey the Green Light. He is really back peddling at this point, in fact he has started placing sanctions on Turkey. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that Turkish Artillery almost killed some US Soldiers the other day. This is really becoming a mess, but at least the Kurds are getting support from Syrian Military forces, just have to see where all this goes.

I hope none of our soldiers are wounded or killed, in my opinion they should all be out of there by now. I still wonder what's going to happen to the 10,000+ ISIS soldiers in Kurdish prisoner camps, Turkey says that the Kurds have released some of them, which I don't beleive, I suspect they just escaped.

i also find it interesting that the Russians support both Turkey and Syria, I wounded which side they will take before this over my money is on Syria.

JIMO

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RoofGardener
10 hours ago, godnodog said:

Well, they are pro-western because only the West has the power and the "Will" to help them create a nation-state, no one expectrs Russia to help them, so yes they are pro-western. 
Media in Pt also considers them pro-west, dont know how the US or UK or other countries portrait them.

Accepting help from the West is NOT the same as being "Pro-Western". The Media portrays them as being "Pro Western" in the UK, but they are mistaken. (or, more accurately, it has never been put to the test). So far as I am aware, there have been no atrocities committed by Kurds against Westerners, or terrorist attacks by Kurds, other than against Turkey. 

It is true that the Kurds lost a great many fighters in the struggle against ISIS, and that "The West" helped them with air cover and logistics. But it is worth noting that the Kurds originally got involved because ISIS attacked THEM, and not for any "Pro Western" sentiments. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
13 hours ago, Setton said:

What an utter imbecile. 

Excuse me?? Trump is 100% correct on this.

Where the hell is your England in all this?  Why doesn't Queenie send troops in to protect the Kurds?

Why aren't you one of those troops?

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Black Red Devil
17 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

There is a message here for the world about the predictability of the US.  Many conservatives were all over Obama for his failure to do anything when his red line was crossed.  Now we have another President that huffs and puffs and does nothing.

A great message for Erdogan and Un and Xi and Putin and anybody else that wants to push us around. Unless they attack our homeland, they night be able to do what they choose.  I hope you Europeans realize you may be on your own.  After all, how many European ships helped defend Pearl Harbor?

Yeah, can you believe the hypocrisy?! When Obama decided to pull troops out of Iraq, due to popular American opinion mind you, he was called a coward and a disgrace....bla,bla,bla.  Here you have the usual Trump supporters backing their heroes decision which is a lot worse than what Obama was accused of doing because Trump is actually backstabbing an ally.  At least the Neocon warmongers in Congress are consistent with their rhetoric because they were furious about leaving Iraq and are furious about getting out of Syria.  But the indoctrinated, brainwashed, gullible fools who see nothing wrong in what Trump does, ever, no matter what, is really something.

It's almost an enlightening experience to read comments from these Trump supporters to see how far their trance like state takes them to justify the idiotic things he does.

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Black Red Devil
3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

 

It is true that the Kurds lost a great many fighters in the struggle against ISIS, and that "The West" helped them with air cover and logistics. But it is worth noting that the Kurds originally got involved because ISIS attacked THEM, and not for any "Pro Western" sentiments. 

The West didn't do it because of the Kurds, they did it because ISIS occupied oil fields and were conducting terrorist attacks in western europe.  Actually Trump didn't contribute at all to the demise of ISIS.  It was mainly the Russians, Syrians, Iraqi's and Kurds.

Until Obama was President there was a coalition fighting ISIS although they never really committed fully to the cause.  After Trump became officially President in Nov/Dec 2016 most of the battles with ISIS were fought by the Russians (mainly airstrikes) and Syrians.  The Kurds at this point were already controlling most of their current territory (thanks mainly to their effort) in both Iraq and Syria.  Under Obama most of Iraq was already under govt control and iSIS was totally defeated in Iraq by early/mid 2017.

See here and notice after December 2016 who the major contenders were (after the battle at Palmyra). In summary western coalition under Obama helped the Kurds, but who totally destroyed ISIS were the Russians and Syrian Govt troops (in Syria) and Iraqi troops (in Iraq) while the Kurds fought and won their battles in their territories while the US under Obama assisted in their demise (thanks to mainly airstrikes) in Iraq.

Funny how Trump a few months ago took the credit and claimed victory over ISIS. :P

Edited by Black Red Devil
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RoofGardener
57 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Yeah, can you believe the hypocrisy?! When Obama decided to pull troops out of Iraq, due to popular American opinion mind you, he was called a coward and a disgrace....bla,bla,bla. 

Really ? 

By whom ? 

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and then
4 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Until Obama was President there was a coalition fighting ISIS although they never really committed fully to the cause. 

Obama finalizes troop pull out in Dec of 2011.  ISIS became a potent force in Iraq in 2014.  The Iraqis that we trained and equipped just walked away.  What Trump has done in Syria will probably lead to a resurgence of ISIS and could even flare into a conflict between Syria and Turkey.  I believe he made a mistake.  I understand his motivation but keeping a campaign promise doesn't balance the negatives involved here.  It makes no sense to spend the blood and treasure and then walk away while the enemy is capable of reconstituting.  

I think he wants to drop the load onto Putin, Assad and Erdog.  He isn't considering what we'll face if they make nice with each other and team up against us in the region.  I also think that he doesn't appreciate the catastrophic potential of Israel being surrounded by Islamist militias doing Iran's dirty work.  

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Setton
7 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Excuse me?? Trump is 100% correct on this.

1. ISIS is not defeated. 

2. He has just given them a huge leg up for a resurgence. 

3. We no longer have a single reliable partner to fight them next time. 

4. Everyone now knows how little an alliance with the US is worth. 

Quote

Where the hell is your England in all this?  Why doesn't Queenie send troops in to protect the Kurds? 

We're in Iraq. Trying to stop your moron of a president from destroying the country (again). 

If he'd actually given anyone (like, you know, his other allies) any warning he was going to betray the Kurds, I've no doubt we would have sent forces in. Not a lot you can do with zero notice. 

Quote

Why aren't you one of those troops?

:lol:

Edited by Setton
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Setton
18 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Things don’t happen overnight.  US Policy is like a big ship with a small rudder.  Change is small and incremental.

Unless you're betraying an ally, of course. That can be done overnight without telling anyone, apparently. 

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Setton
7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

 It is true that the Kurds lost a great many fighters in the struggle against ISIS, and that "The West" helped them with air cover and logistics. But it is worth noting that the Kurds originally got involved because ISIS attacked THEM, and not for any "Pro Western" sentiments. 

And they kept fighting ISIS back hundreds of kilometers outside their territory because...? 

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RoofGardener
3 hours ago, Setton said:

And they kept fighting ISIS back hundreds of kilometers outside their territory because...? 

Ummm... I'm not ENTIRELY sure about this.. but.. .they didn't ? 

they only fought within their territory ? 

Umm... I think ? 

Edited by RoofGardener
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RavenHawk
14 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's not our job to reform Islam.

It’s everybody’s job.  Until dar al-Harb stands firm, Islam (Salafism) will continue to spread.  Otherwise, there is no reason for Islam not to follow its nature.  It counts on the rest of us being divided.  Knowledge is power and if you are aware, then Islam has no choice but to reform.

 

I'm for pulling out of the region, creating power vacuums that Russia and Iran will get sucked into. Let them enjoy the benefits of the perpetual internecine warfare of the region. Let them bind their sons and daughters to exile serving the political will of their elite. The whole region is a trap, full of parasitical political entities more than willing to drain the lifeblood and wealth of any unwary nation that meddles too far within.

I am with you, but we can’t just pull out completely at once (talk about leaving a power vacuum).  It should go in stages.  Either we stay and commit all the required resources to bring peace to the region by force or we get out and turn a blind eye to all the atrocities that will normally occur.  Either course takes time.  No more of this political quagmire where we are too skittish to do either.  Trump has decided to start the pull out.  Some think that ISIS will make a resurgence.  It won’t be in Syria.  All those ISIS fighters are going to want to go home, which is Europe.  Let the individual European nations worry about them.  I think Russia is trying to step in now (sucked in).  They still need to defend Tartus.  Our hands are now washed of it.  Turkey needs to worry about Syria and Russia.  Of course, there is the land bridge from Iran to Hamas and Hezbollah.  We are going to see more rockets being aimed at Israel but that will backfire on Iran and we’re out of the killing zone when SA and Iran go at it.  Israel is more than capable to defend themselves and will probably align with SA.  It will just speed up pushing the radical elements out of Palestine.

 

We don't need it's oil, anymore, nor do we need to curry the favor of it's tribal entities. Let us leave and shake it's dust off our shoes, leave and let the place rot.

We don’t but others do (allies/world economy).  But let them worry about it.  Although the downside to this hands-off approach could create a new competing colonialism and a new arms race.  Europe has a historical tendency to do that.  The opposite of us being the world’s police force and maintaining a relative peace is a new arms race like we saw between 1870 and 1914, and we all know what that led to during the first half of the 20th Century.

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Black Red Devil
7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Really ? 

By whom ? 

The usual Trump supporters, some of them are posting in this thread. 

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Hammerclaw
41 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

It’s everybody’s job.  Until dar al-Harb stands firm, Islam (Salafism) will continue to spread.  Otherwise, there is no reason for Islam not to follow its nature.  It counts on the rest of us being divided.  Knowledge is power and if you are aware, then Islam has no choice but to reform.

 

 

 

 

 

I am with you, but we can’t just pull out completely at once (talk about leaving a power vacuum).  It should go in stages.  Either we stay and commit all the required resources to bring peace to the region by force or we get out and turn a blind eye to all the atrocities that will normally occur.  Either course takes time.  No more of this political quagmire where we are too skittish to do either.  Trump has decided to start the pull out.  Some think that ISIS will make a resurgence.  It won’t be in Syria.  All those ISIS fighters are going to want to go home, which is Europe.  Let the individual European nations worry about them.  I think Russia is trying to step in now (sucked in).  They still need to defend Tartus.  Our hands are now washed of it.  Turkey needs to worry about Syria and Russia.  Of course, there is the land bridge from Iran to Hamas and Hezbollah.  We are going to see more rockets being aimed at Israel but that will backfire on Iran and we’re out of the killing zone when SA and Iran go at it.  Israel is more than capable to defend themselves and will probably align with SA.  It will just speed up pushing the radical elements out of Palestine.

 

 

 

 

 

We don’t but others do (allies/world economy).  But let them worry about it.  Although the downside to this hands-off approach could create a new competing colonialism and a new arms race.  Europe has a historical tendency to do that.  The opposite of us being the world’s police force and maintaining a relative peace is a new arms race like we saw between 1870 and 1914, and we all know what that led to during the first half of the 20th Century.

 

Let others involve themselves in the region and bankrupt their fragile economies trying to maintain a significant presence. We have more important areas of the world that need our attention, building our Indian Ocean Alliances and containing Chinese expansionism. The Russians want to play war again and deserve some TLC, too.The Persian Gulf is the backside of the world and we don't want to be stuck up it.

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Black Red Devil
5 hours ago, and then said:

Obama finalizes troop pull out in Dec of 2011.  ISIS became a potent force in Iraq in 2014.  The Iraqis that we trained and equipped just walked away.  What Trump has done in Syria will probably lead to a resurgence of ISIS and could even flare into a conflict between Syria and Turkey.  I believe he made a mistake.  I understand his motivation but keeping a campaign promise doesn't balance the negatives involved here.  It makes no sense to spend the blood and treasure and then walk away while the enemy is capable of reconstituting.  

I think he wants to drop the load onto Putin, Assad and Erdog.  He isn't considering what we'll face if they make nice with each other and team up against us in the region.  I also think that he doesn't appreciate the catastrophic potential of Israel being surrounded by Islamist militias doing Iran's dirty work.  

I don't see any danger there could be a resurgence of ISIS.  Their biggest weapon at the start was their propaganda which allowed them to recruit thousands of deluded with the dream of an Islamic caliphate and mysteriously they were able to blitzkrieg their way thru Iraq and Syria, with a bit of help from 'overseas donations' (SA) initially and eventually from the spoils of war.  None of this is possible anymore and I doubt they would ever get many recruits from either the middle east or from western nations after seeing how the ones that previously went, lost everything, their families, their lives, stuck in refugee camps, they even lost their citizenship.

Do you really think Trump gives two sh..s about Israel? :lol: The only thing Trump cares about is cutting costs and looking good in preparation for the 2020 elections and like the true ruthless business man he is, there are no victims in his quest, only the selloff of an asset (and it's dependents) that isn't profitable enough to keep.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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Setton
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Ummm... I'm not ENTIRELY sure about this.. but.. .they didn't ? 

they only fought within their territory ? 

Umm... I think ? 

You would be wrong. Baghuz is about 200km south of the Kurdish regions. 

See, this is what happens when you use muscles you're not used to. 

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Setton
2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

All those ISIS fighters are going to want to go home, which is Europe. 

Except that most of them aren't European. Most are Syrian or Iraqi. 

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and then
2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

The only thing Trump cares about is cutting costs and looking good in preparation for the 2020 elections and like the true ruthless business man he is, there are no victims in his quest, only the selloff of an asset (and it's dependents) that isn't profitable enough to keep.

So, you're saying Trump is like every other politician ever in the history of the world, right?  :)   I agree that he is single minded and goal oriented and will cut people loose if they get in his way or disagree with his plans.  All successful presidents have been this way, the media just covered for most of them.  Where T is concerned, the media not only WON'T cover for him, they enjoy making sheet up about him.  I think they have secret competitions and earn prizes for creativity.

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