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Setton

US betrays Kurdish Allies

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Hammerclaw

I'm just sitting here admiring all these, honest, moral and upright foreigners in this thread, so willing to spend American lives on what they believe is right. I just get all choked up about it.:unsure2:

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Black Red Devil
3 hours ago, and then said:

So, you're saying Trump is like every other politician ever in the history of the world, right?  :)   I agree that he is single minded and goal oriented and will cut people loose if they get in his way or disagree with his plans.  All successful presidents have been this way, the media just covered for most of them.  Where T is concerned, the media not only WON'T cover for him, they enjoy making sheet up about him.  I think they have secret competitions and earn prizes for creativity.

No, I actually said he's a ruthless business man intending to mean he treats the Presidency as if he's running his business.  Difference being, as a business man, you only have to make your shareholders happy and no questions asked if everything is done legally.  As a politician and especially a leading politician of a country with the strongest economy and military, you have responsibilities not only towards your electorate (or shareholders if you want to give it a business twist) but also towards the rest of the country, allies and everyone else in the world impacted by his decision making. 

As the POTUS, you can say MAGA which is OK, but you can't say MAGA and $hit on the rest.  That's an attitude you might get away with if you were President of Swaziland or Andorra but not in a country that calls itself the leader of Democracy in the world, as mentioned has the leading economy, home to the UN, a member of the G7, G20, OECD, founding member of NATO, IMF, World Bank, the strongest military force with bases in every allied country in the world.  Backstabbing the Kurds probably won't change the balance of power in the world but now everyone knows how far they can trust your President.

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Black Red Devil
21 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I'm just sitting here admiring all these, honest, moral and upright foreigners in this thread, so willing to spend American lives on what they believe is right. I just get all choked up about it.:unsure2:

Foreigners in this thread?  We're in the Middle East forum.

Personally I would have preferred you saved American lives by never invading countries such as Iraq and dragging others in there under false pretenses.

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Hammerclaw
23 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Foreigners in this thread?  We're in the Middle East forum.

Personally I would have preferred you saved American lives by never invading countries such as Iraq and dragging others in there under false pretenses.

You're a foreigner to us Americans, telling us what we should sacrifice the lives of our  brave young men and women over. I 'd prefer you butt out; you don't have a dog in this race. Of course, neither of us will get what we prefer. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
13 hours ago, and then said:

It makes no sense to spend the blood and treasure and then walk away while the enemy is capable of reconstituting.  

Therein lies the problem, and then. The enemy is almost always capable of reconstituting.

Look at South Korea. We've been baby sitting them with 30,000 troops since forever! What the hell. We'll be doing it in Iraq, too.
Then there is Afghanistan,  another blister. 18 years fighting and nobody really knows why we went in there. And it goes on and on and on forever.

Hope you understand why I just want OUT.

 

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Hammerclaw
8 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Therein lies the problem, and then. The enemy is almost always capable of reconstituting.

Look at South Korea. We've been baby sitting them with 30,000 troops since forever! What the hell. We'll be doing it in Iraq, too.
Then there is Afghanistan,  another blister. 18 years fighting and nobody really knows why we went in there. And it goes on and on and on forever.

Hope you understand why I just want OUT.

 

Putting out wildfires only serves to allow flammable tinder to build up. Sometimes, you just have to let them burn, until equilibrium is once again established. Syria was decimated by the "Arab Spring" courtesy of the Obama Sate Department and the MSM. Now, the order that held it together, the peace of the gun, will reassert itself. All we could do if we stayed, would be to impose our version of it. Let's let the local experts handle it.

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

You're a foreigner to us Americans, telling us what we should sacrifice the lives of our  brave young men and women over. I 'd prefer you butt out; you don't have a dog in this race. Of course, neither of us will get what we prefer. 

Nah, I'll think I'll keep putting my 2 cents worth in and calling it as I see it on an international site, in a 'non American' thread, obviously obeying the rules at all times but I'm afraid we all have a dog in this race from the time your leaders pretended to be the policemen around the world, interfering in everyone's internal affairs, invading countries, dragging others into their personal wars based on false flags and false pretenses. 

OTOH have your fun reading because nothing of what is said here will get Americans killed but the fact remains, Trump is a backstabber and people that defend his actions and condemned Obama's in Iraq are hypocrites, in my humble opinion of course.

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Hammerclaw
21 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Nah, I'll think I'll keep putting my 2 cents worth in and calling it as I see it on an international site, in a 'non American' thread, obviously obeying the rules at all times but I'm afraid we all have a dog in this race from the time your leaders pretended to be the policemen around the world, interfering in everyone's internal affairs, invading countries, dragging others into their personal wars based on false flags and false pretenses. 

OTOH have your fun reading because nothing of what is said here will get Americans killed but the fact remains, Trump is a backstabber and people that defend his actions and condemned Obama's in Iraq are hypocrites, in my humble opinion of course.

Well thank you ever so much for vomiting you anti-American rhetoric with such vitriolic clarity.  I wish no further discourse with scum like you.

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RoofGardener
15 hours ago, Setton said:

1. ISIS is not defeated. 

2. He has just given them a huge leg up for a resurgence. 

3. We no longer have a single reliable partner to fight them next time. 

4. Everyone now knows how little an alliance with the US is worth. 

We're in Iraq. Trying to stop your moron of a president from destroying the country (again). 

If he'd actually given anyone (like, you know, his other allies) any warning he was going to betray the Kurds, I've no doubt we would have sent forces in. Not a lot you can do with zero notice. 

:lol:

Just a minor point, but the UK pulled its military out of Iraq in 2011. We are NOT in Iraq. 

9 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

I don't see any danger there could be a resurgence of ISIS.  Their biggest weapon at the start was their propaganda which allowed them to recruit thousands of deluded with the dream of an Islamic caliphate and mysteriously they were able to blitzkrieg their way thru Iraq and Syria, with a bit of help from 'overseas donations' (SA) initially and eventually from the spoils of war.  None of this is possible anymore and I doubt they would ever get many recruits from either the middle east or from western nations after seeing how the ones that previously went, lost everything, their families, their lives, stuck in refugee camps, they even lost their citizenship.

Do you really think Trump gives two sh..s about Israel? :lol: The only thing Trump cares about is cutting costs and looking good in preparation for the 2020 elections and like the true ruthless business man he is, there are no victims in his quest, only the selloff of an asset (and it's dependents) that isn't profitable enough to keep.

And why SHOULD President Trump keep a presence in Syria ? You COULD argue that they have a moral duty to support Iraq, as THEY where instrumental in knocking down the previous regime. But Syria ??

49 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Nah, I'll think I'll keep putting my 2 cents worth in and calling it as I see it on an international site, in a 'non American' thread, obviously obeying the rules at all times but I'm afraid we all have a dog in this race from the time your leaders pretended to be the policemen around the world, interfering in everyone's internal affairs, invading countries, dragging others into their personal wars based on false flags and false pretenses. 

OTOH have your fun reading because nothing of what is said here will get Americans killed but the fact remains, Trump is a backstabber and people that defend his actions and condemned Obama's in Iraq are hypocrites, in my humble opinion of course.

Trump is a realist and - despite massive political pressure to keep up the charade in Syria - took decisive action to pull his troops out. Tell me... what business is it of the United States what happens in Syria ? From the goodness of their hearts they sent in logistics assistance, weapons, and air-cover in the fight against the Caliphate. But that does NOT mean they have any obligation to remain there. 

Think about it: other than for humanitarian reasons, WHY should the USA get involved in Syria ? Let the Syrians, Turks, Russians and ISIS sort it out among themselves. As for Israel... it can look after itself. Consider that - despite its adherence to the Islamic Theology of Jew-hatred - ISIS never attacked Israel. 

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RoofGardener
9 hours ago, Setton said:

You would be wrong. Baghuz is about 200km south of the Kurdish regions. 

See, this is what happens when you use muscles you're not used to. 

< sigh > Yes @Setton. However, having been initially attacked by ISIS, the Syrian Democratic Forces didn't just throw ISIS back from "Kurdish" territory; they sought to destroy all physical trace of them in Syria. Hence Baghuz. 

Sheesh. 

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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Therein lies the problem, and then. The enemy is almost always capable of reconstituting.

Look at South Korea. We've been baby sitting them with 30,000 troops since forever! What the hell. We'll be doing it in Iraq, too.
Then there is Afghanistan,  another blister. 18 years fighting and nobody really knows why we went in there. And it goes on and on and on forever.

Hope you understand why I just want OUT.

 

South Korea doesn't really play into this, when the cease fire ended things there was never an official peace agreement to end the war. In fact to this day we are still technically at war with North Korea after all these years as crazy as that may be.

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well thank you ever so much for vomiting you anti-American rhetoric with such vitriolic clarity.  I wish no further discourse with scum like you.

Good riddance ignorant hypocrite and it wasn't anti American, it was anti right wing Conservative Nationalism, fool.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

And why SHOULD President Trump keep a presence in Syria ? You COULD argue that they have a moral duty to support Iraq, as THEY where instrumental in knocking down the previous regime. But Syria ??

 

I agree, but not withdraw by backstabbing allies.

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Trump is a realist and - despite massive political pressure to keep up the charade in Syria - took decisive action to pull his troops out. Tell me... what business is it of the United States what happens in Syria ? From the goodness of their hearts they sent in logistics assistance, weapons, and air-cover in the fight against the Caliphate. But that does NOT mean they have any obligation to remain there. 

Think about it: other than for humanitarian reasons, WHY should the USA get involved in Syria ? Let the Syrians, Turks, Russians and ISIS sort it out among themselves. As for Israel... it can look after itself. Consider that - despite its adherence to the Islamic Theology of Jew-hatred - ISIS never attacked Israel. 

In the real world you can't commit and then leave people in the lurch.  Or rather, you can but don't expect allies to trust you.  If this is the type of President that wins the election in 2020, I hope Australia becomes an ally of China (:P).  But overall, my irony FWIW is towards the individuals that are fully behind Trump withdrawing troops now but criticised Obama for pulling troops out of Iraq at the time.

Also, humanitarian wise, bombing civilians from any country isn't acceptable under any circumstance.  Is it an American problem?  No, it's everyone's problem that entered that war in Syria, Russians, Syrians, Turks and Americans.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Consider that - despite its adherence to the Islamic Theology of Jew-hatred - ISIS never attacked Israel. 

And you never wondered why? :lol:

Spoiler

SA financially supports ISIS, USA & SA are allies, USA protects Israeli interests in the ME.

 

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

And you never wondered why? :lol:

  Hide contents

SA financially supports ISIS, USA & SA are allies, USA protects Israeli interests in the ME.

 

Hah... possibly. Or perhaps ISIS realised that if they tried it, they would be annihilated. :P

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

.... But overall, my irony FWIW is towards the individuals that are fully behind Trump withdrawing troops now but criticised Obama for pulling troops out of Iraq at the time.

Well... indeed... that DOES sound hypocritical. 

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Black Red Devil
15 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hah... possibly. Or perhaps ISIS realised that if they tried it, they would be annihilated. :P

That's a possibility, actually more a probability but I'm surprised they never even tried to enter the Golan Hts.

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RoofGardener
Just now, Black Red Devil said:

That's a possibility, actually more a probability but I'm surprised they never even tried to enter the Golan Hts.

Hmm.. thinking about it.. they where probably too busy elsewhere ? Plus, they where only ever light infantry. They wouldn't have much chance ? 

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Black Red Devil
7 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. thinking about it.. they where probably too busy elsewhere ? Plus, they where only ever light infantry. They wouldn't have much chance ? 

Actually you're right.  Looking at the map at their maximum expansion they never even got close to Israel (ISIS territory in grey).

image.png.50385f18388bbf0ae1a70be9d75ca8e4.png

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Setton
3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Just a minor point, but the UK pulled its military out of Iraq in 2011. We are NOT in Iraq. 

As did the US. We both then went back in at the Iraqi government's request to help them against ISIS. 

You really need to do some basic research. This is embarrassing. 

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Setton
3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

< sigh > Yes @Setton. However, having been initially attacked by ISIS, the Syrian Democratic Forces didn't just throw ISIS back from "Kurdish" territory; they sought to destroy all physical trace of them in Syria. Hence Baghuz. 

Sheesh. 

Which was my point - they carried on long after they needed to. 

Did you bet against yourself in this debate? 

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Setton
7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You're a foreigner to us Americans, telling us what we should sacrifice the lives of our  brave young men and women over. I 'd prefer you butt out; you don't have a dog in this race. Of course, neither of us will get what we prefer. 

Leaving aside that no one has suggested you actually fight anyone it's our countries that will suffer from a resurgent ISIS as a result of YOUR cowardice. So you're damn right we'll call you out on it. 

As I recall, you were happy enough to spend the lives of our brave young men and women in your idiotic revenge campaign in Afghan. And your pointless war in Iraq. 

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RoofGardener
12 minutes ago, Setton said:

As did the US. We both then went back in at the Iraqi government's request to help them against ISIS. 

You really need to do some basic research. This is embarrassing. 

We have got 400 trainers over there. They ARE soldiers, but they are NOT equipped to fight. (light weapons only). 

You really need to do some basic research. 

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RoofGardener
12 minutes ago, Setton said:

Which was my point - they carried on long after they needed to. 

Did you bet against yourself in this debate? 

You seem to have forgotten the original point, @Setton, which was that the Kurds did NOT attack ISIS because the West asked them to, but because ISIS attacked THEM. 

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Setton
Just now, RoofGardener said:

We have got 400 trainers over there. They ARE soldiers, but they are NOT equipped to fight. (light weapons only). 

You really need to do some basic research. 

What's your point? 

Are trainers somehow bulletproof? 

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