Rlyeh Posted October 14, 2019 #101 Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 hour ago, papageorge1 said: I think we probably have similar definitions of fundamental. In the view I am espousing physical matter can only disable the physical expression of consciousness. Consciousness itself is fundamental meaning it is uncreated and eternal. Then you're changing the definition of consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted October 14, 2019 #102 Share Posted October 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: Then you're changing the definition of consciousness. No change. I never defined consciousness to be a physical-only process/experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 14, 2019 #103 Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 hour ago, papageorge1 said: It is subtle and extra-dimensional and at vibratory rates orders of magnitude beyond physical matter meaning it is not directly detectable by the physical senses and instruments. You said it's super-physical. What is it's molecular vibration frequency then? It sounds like you're just repeating something you've heard without understanding the words. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 14, 2019 #104 Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 minute ago, papageorge1 said: No change. I never defined consciousness to be a physical-only process/experience. Consciousness is the state of mental awareness, the fact that physical matter can disable it contradicts your non-dualistic view. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted October 14, 2019 #105 Share Posted October 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: You said it's super-physical. What is it's molecular vibration frequency then? It sounds like you're just repeating something you've heard without understanding the words. The concept of a vibratory rate is not that challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted October 14, 2019 #106 Share Posted October 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: Consciousness is the state of mental awareness, the fact that physical matter can disable it contradicts your non-dualistic view. What 'Consciousness Is' is considered one of the great mysteries of modern thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 14, 2019 #107 Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 minute ago, papageorge1 said: The concept of a vibratory rate is not that challenging. Yet your inability to answer it suggests you're just repeating what you've heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 14, 2019 #108 Share Posted October 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: What 'Consciousness Is' is considered one of the great mysteries of modern thought. Yet we know what loss of consciousness is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted October 14, 2019 #109 Share Posted October 14, 2019 20 hours ago, XenoFish said: The problem is that without matter, consciousness can not exist. I dispute that notion (as would probably most religious minded).. Besides the fact we havent established a clear definition of the concept of consciousness (I think?), everything in this reality bares down to energy, frequency and vibration. The specific variables within those fundamentals dictate its specific form, whether or not such a set of variables results into something tangible, measurable (to us). Seems to me matter is a bandwidth of vibration in the range that is common to our perception and understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted October 14, 2019 #110 Share Posted October 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said: I dispute that notion (as would probably most religious minded).. Besides the fact we havent established a clear definition of the concept of consciousness (I think?), everything in this reality bares down to energy, frequency and vibration. The specific variables within those fundamentals dictate its specific form, whether or not such a set of variables results into something tangible, measurable (to us). Seems to me matter is a bandwidth of vibration in the range that is common to our perception and understanding. Sure whatever. I expect nothing less from those who are spiritually/religious minded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted October 14, 2019 #111 Share Posted October 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: Yet we know what loss of consciousness is. Only the loss of its physical expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 14, 2019 #112 Share Posted October 14, 2019 Just now, papageorge1 said: Only the loss of its physical expression. And mental, in which case is no different than complete loss of consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted October 14, 2019 #113 Share Posted October 14, 2019 17 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: And mental, in which case is no different than complete loss of consciousness. My point has been that consciousness is not a product of the brain but a mystery eternal and fundamental. Certainly you can destroy or temporarily stop brain consciousness but that consciousness still exists on the higher planes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted October 14, 2019 #114 Share Posted October 14, 2019 29 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Sure whatever. I expect nothing less from those who are spiritually/religious minded. What a lovely juvenile, arrogant response. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted October 14, 2019 #115 Share Posted October 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said: What a lovely juvenile, arrogant response. Just sounds like quantum mysticism. People wanting to insert their religious/spiritual nonsense where it doesn't belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coil Posted October 14, 2019 #116 Share Posted October 14, 2019 22 hours ago, papageorge1 said: Materialist (joc): Matter is primary and consciousness is a derivative of matter Non-Dualism (papa): Consciousness is primary and matter is a derivative of Consciousness Brahman also contains matter (Sat level - radiant matter) only in a subtle form, therefore consciousness-matter always goes together. If the spirit or subtle bodies contain only consciousness, they could not create material bodies / universe and connect with the physical body ( and the creative mind of the universe awakens on the second level, Cit) On the spiritual level, man controls matter freely, and on the physical level, matter dictates its own conditions (these are called “laws” that are supposedly impossible to transcend), therefore it seems that matter surpasses consciousness or is primary than consciousness. For example, the body dies and our consciousness cannot prevent death. At the spiritual level, however, there is no death and attrition-entropy. Therefore, it seems to us that spirit is one thing and matter is another and these categories contradict each other (one eternal and another mortal), but in fact it is just the weakness of our earthly consciousness in the inability to control matter. That is why there is reincarnation on earth as a way to continue the development-training further despite the death of the body and for the spirit, the death of the body does not change anything in its plans. Eventually,the spirit will bring evolution to the transformation of the body into an immortal body as it was originally and our physical world become the same as the world of God as it is the purpose of God and the meaning of the existence of the physical universe and the physical level of being. Eternal life, in an eternal body, in eternal bliss, knowledge and creativity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 14, 2019 #117 Share Posted October 14, 2019 20 minutes ago, papageorge1 said: My point has been that consciousness is not a product of the brain but a mystery eternal and fundamental. Certainly you can destroy or temporarily stop brain consciousness but that consciousness still exists on the higher planes. If they're not conscious then no it doesn't. It's like saying bovine excrement is really gold on a higher plane. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted October 14, 2019 #118 Share Posted October 14, 2019 34 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: If they're not conscious then no it doesn't. It's like saying bovine excrement is really gold on a higher plane. I am asserting that after brain death, consciousness can still be experienced at even a richer level through the astral body on the astral plane. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseDancer Posted October 14, 2019 Author #119 Share Posted October 14, 2019 On 10/13/2019 at 5:08 PM, freetoroam said: What do you class as "reality"? Reality is what I know and I know nothing. I'm the oldest of five and when we get together, talking about the past no two of us remember an event the same way. What is reality to you? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted October 14, 2019 #120 Share Posted October 14, 2019 1 minute ago, papageorge1 said: I am asserting that after brain death, consciousness can still be experienced at even a richer level through the astral body on the astral plane. Which there is zero evidence for the existence of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted October 14, 2019 #121 Share Posted October 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, RoseDancer said: I'm the oldest of five and when we get together, talking about the past no two of us remember an event the same way. Memory is malleable. Every time we recall something we edit that memory a bit. We can even create false memories of events and things that never happened. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted October 14, 2019 #122 Share Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, XenoFish said: Just sounds like quantum mysticism. People wanting to insert their religious/spiritual nonsense where it doesn't belong. Allright, so you suppose Tesla is 'a quantum mysticist'. Thats cute. Edited October 14, 2019 by Phaeton80 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted October 14, 2019 #123 Share Posted October 14, 2019 39 minutes ago, Coil said: Brahman also contains matter (Sat level - radiant matter) only in a subtle form, therefore consciousness-matter always goes together. If the spirit or subtle bodies contain only consciousness, they could not create material bodies / universe and connect with the physical body ( and the creative mind of the universe awakens on the second level, Cit) No, in Advaita Vedanta thought that I am espousing, Brahman is pure consciousness best described as being-awareness-bliss (sat-cit-Ananda). All matter physical and subtle are part of Maya (illusion). Brahman alone does not contain subtle matter. 43 minutes ago, Coil said: On the spiritual level, man controls matter freely, and on the physical level, matter dictates its own conditions (these are called “laws” that are supposedly impossible to transcend), therefore it seems that matter surpasses consciousness or is primary than consciousness. For example, the body dies and our consciousness cannot prevent death. At the spiritual level, however, there is no death and attrition-entropy. Therefore, it seems to us that spirit is one thing and matter is another and these categories contradict each other (one eternal and another mortal), but in fact it is just the weakness of our earthly consciousness in the inability to control matter. That is why there is reincarnation on earth as a way to continue the development-training further despite the death of the body and for the spirit, the death of the body does not change anything in its plans. Eventually,the spirit will bring evolution to the transformation of the body into an immortal body as it was originally and our physical world become the same as the world of God as it is the purpose of God and the meaning of the existence of the physical universe and the physical level of being. Eternal life, in an eternal body, in eternal bliss, knowledge and creativity. I think I agree with much of what is said in this part. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papageorge1 Posted October 14, 2019 #124 Share Posted October 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Which there is zero evidence for the existence of. And I contend the evidence is strong but not worth rehashing with a known negativist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted October 14, 2019 #125 Share Posted October 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said: Allright, so you suppose Tesla is 'a quantum mysticist'. Thats qute. I don't care about tesla. What the hell is 'qute'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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