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RoofGardener

Turkish Invasion and the US Media

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RoofGardener

It appears that in its haste to paint the invasion of Syria by Turkey in the worse possible light - and by association, Donald Trump -  (as though that really needs doing), NBC published a report about the deaths of Christians in Syria as a result of the Turkish operation. 

The only problem is that - according to a Syrian Christian organisation - it's not true. No Christians have been killed. 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/syrian-christian-group-urges-nbc-not-to-mislead-public/1611071

Edited by RoofGardener
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1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

It appears that in its haste to paint the invasion of Syria by Turkey in the worse possible light (as though that really needs doing), NBC published a report about the deaths of Christians in Syria as a result of the Turkish operation. 

The only problem is that - according to a Syrian Christian organisation - it's not true. No Christians have been killed. 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/syrian-christian-group-urges-nbc-not-to-mislead-public/1611071

I'd really like to understand what's going on and why it became so critical for Erdogan right NOW to make this push.  I guess it will become apparent at some point.  If atrocities occur in large numbers then I hope Trump rethinks our relationship with the Kurds to the extent of supplying them with small arms and anti armor weapons at least. 

Erdog is a dictator.  He is making that more apparent with every day that passes and he's going to stop any pretense of being democratic as soon as the votes don't go his way.  The pattern isn't difficult to intuit.  I don't think U.S. troops should be committed to save Kurdish forces in Syria but I'd have no problem supplying them with intel and man-portable weapons and ammo - especially if mass killing of civilians or execution of troops is proven.  

We should strike an accord with the Kurds of northern Iraq to build a system of bases in their area of sovereignty.  They have been the only reliable Muslim allies in that whole region.  They are fiercely independent, love freedom and are proven in battle.  The time to build these bases and supply the region with appropriate infrastructure is NOW... before Erdog turns openly hostile to U.S. forces.  An Incirlik-like air complex in that region could be of great benefit in keeping an eye on Iranian and Iraqi moves and would lend some stability where Russia, Syria and Iran all have disparate ambitions. 

If we dally for much longer, the fate of the region will be decided by the inertia of indecision.

 

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Dumbledore the Awesome

 

2 minutes ago, and then said:

An Incirlik-like air complex in that region could be of great benefit in keeping an eye on Iranian and Iraqi moves

Don't you think it says something about the success of US Foreign policy that the latter ( keeping an eye on Iraqi moves) might be necessary, considering that the US spent years and years and years and years successfully making Iraq into a model democracy following the American example? :mellow:

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18 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

The only problem is that - according to a Syrian Christian organisation - it's not true. No Christians have been killed. 

I wonder what triggered such a response from NBC?  It isn't like they've bothered to cover the deaths of the thousands of Christians all over the M.E. that has been ongoing for years.  Purging of Christian members of middle eastern communities seems to increase as resources become more scarce or order within  the nation breaks down.  The weakest groups get pushed out when the opportunity arises, I guess.  

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32 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

 

Don't you think it says something about the success of US Foreign policy that the latter ( keeping an eye on Iraqi moves) might be necessary, considering that the US spent years and years and years and years successfully making Iraq into a model democracy following the American example? :mellow:

I think it speaks resoundingly of America's failure to understand the motives and ambitions of Islamic fundamentalism.  I supported the move into Iraq, primarily because of the evidence that was presented about the WMD - primarily chem-bio weapons research.  I STILL believe there was an Iraqi program to proliferate these systems and that stockpiles were moved out over land in truck convoys for Syria in the many months that led up to the commencement of hostilities.

As to the obvious failure of U.S. interests in Iraq, our leaders have been quick to speak in grand generalities about the wonders of freedom and democracy while thinking nothing of the history and culture of this region.  Maybe it was a corrupt motive from the beginning and the real goal was the enrichment of favored corporations or maybe there were some high-minded but naive types that really wanted to believe that all people want freedom.  Some people, apparently, are far too comfortable with the feel of boot leather on their neck.

As I mentioned earlier, I have been calling for an agreement with the Kurds for many years.  They have been loyal and have been willing to fight and die in large numbers in their desire for their homeland and liberty.  You cannot ask more from a people than that they be willing to bleed for what they believe.  In fact, it's the one point of admiration that I have for the Palestinian youth.  Their leaders should burn in a hell of their own making but the young people, as young young people are wont to do, fight like lions.

 Early on, it was nearly impossible to openly advocate for strengthening a military relationship with a nationalist movement whose kinetic arm (PKK) was found to be a "terror" organization.  The formalities between NATO allies had to be observed and at that point it was not clear just how far Erdog would be willing to go in his push for an Islamic government in Turkey.

There should no longer be ANY doubt about the path he has chosen and the timeline for Turkey to arrive in their new political reality.  America will be invited to leave Incirlik and a few other bases  at a time of Erdog's choosing and the sooner we accept this and create a strategy for shifting our strength in the region the better off we will be.  At the time of the supposed "coup attempt" Incirlik was surrounded and external power was cut.  If we continue to dawdle about and behave as though we are besties with this tyrant wannabe, the more embarrassing and expensive will be the bill when we "break up". 

If Trump is defeated in 2020 or the Dems retake the government in 2024, the new Liberal government will follow the same tired script of gutting the military, boosting social programs to buy votes and retreating from the world on all fronts.  IOW, Obama 2.0  Putin and Xi, like any other leaders worth their salt, are planning for exactly that future.

Edited by and then
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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

It appears that in its haste to paint the invasion of Syria by Turkey in the worse possible light - and by association, Donald Trump -  (as though that really needs doing), NBC published a report about the deaths of Christians in Syria as a result of the Turkish operation. 

The only problem is that - according to a Syrian Christian organisation - it's not true. No Christians have been killed. 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/syrian-christian-group-urges-nbc-not-to-mislead-public/1611071

 

Well, that's a refreshing change, eh? the media LIED lol.  So glad I don't watch that garbage anymore. If Trump stayed the course they would have called him a dictator and war monger.

That's American "media". You don't go for a job with them with your degree in journalism, you go with a degree in acting. Great pontificators. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, and then said:

I don't think U.S. troops should be committed to save Kurdish forces in Syria but I'd have no problem supplying them with intel and man-portable weapons and ammo - especially if mass killing of civilians or execution of troops is proven.  

I agree and I really think it's time for that USELESS UN to step in. 

I just read to today that pro-Syrian and Russian forces are stepping in. About time. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, and then said:

At the time of the supposed "coup attempt" Incirlik was surrounded and external power was cut.  If we continue to dawdle about and behave as though we are besties with this tyrant wannabe, the more embarrassing and expensive will be the bill when we "break up". 

Yup. I'm afraid it is not in our hands anymore. If Turkey goes full force Islamic State the extremists will want our bases out. We'll be lucky if the troops and crafts get out of there. Sometimes these revolutions are quite sporadic like the Iranian revolution of the late 70's. We did not see that coming at all.

1 hour ago, and then said:

If Trump is defeated in 2020 or the Dems retake the government in 2024, the new Liberal government will follow the same tired script of gutting the military, boosting social programs to buy votes and retreating from the world on all fronts.  IOW, Obama 2.0  Putin and Xi, like any other leaders worth their salt, are planning for exactly that future.

No doubt. But you must admit we have by FAR more bases word wide than any of the aforementioned. 

One of the reasons now why I want military scaled back is because we cannot trust the politicians that control them. I love the military and respect them. They do their job. But it is the corrupt pols that get to determine what job.

Look at Afghanistan. What a farce. what the hell are we doing there after 18 years?! What a hosing Americans took on that deal. We are paying for it and we have no idea why we are there. What,,? to get OBL?? Good Lord!

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DarkHunter
2 hours ago, and then said:

I'd really like to understand what's going on and why it became so critical for Erdogan right NOW to make this push. 

From what I have read the whole thing largely came about by accident.  Essentially Erdogan domestically had built up a military response as being necessary and imminent to northern Syria, largely to distract from other interior problems inside Turkey and his dropping of popularity and political power.  It seems Erdogan never actually wanted to invade Syria or at least not as extensively as its occuring and was counting on Trump to restrain him but Trump said he was pulling out and Erdogan called his bluff.  Trump wasnt bluffing, America pulled out and now Erdogan is stuck in a position where he either had to invade Syria or face political suicide.  

Seems even with the invasion that Erdogan is probably going to face political suicide as Europe and America start to look at extreme sanctions.  

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spud the mackem
4 hours ago, and then said:

I wonder what triggered such a response from NBC?  It isn't like they've bothered to cover the deaths of the thousands of Christians all over the M.E. that has been ongoing for years.  Purging of Christian members of middle eastern communities seems to increase as resources become more scarce or order within  the nation breaks down.  The weakest groups get pushed out when the opportunity arises, I guess.  

NBC just like our BBC ,what is rumoured becomes fact to them , both are unreliable when it come to the truth. 

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Dumbledore the Awesome

I see that US B-52s have recently arrived in the UK. 

I wonder if they're there to send a message to someone, and if so, who? :unsure2:

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bee
4 hours ago, and then said:

I wonder what triggered such a response from NBC?  It isn't like they've bothered to cover the deaths of the thousands of Christians all over the M.E. that has been ongoing for years.  Purging of Christian members of middle eastern communities seems to increase as resources become more scarce or order within  the nation breaks down.  The weakest groups get pushed out when the opportunity arises, I guess.  

 

bolded....

I think it could have been this.... to provide a (fake) counter point just in case anyone said anything good
about Trump.... :rolleyes:..... ?...... ''''but but.... he doesn't really care.... because because.... etc etc etc...'''''

 

 

Trump announces $50M in aid for Christians, religious minorities in Syria

 

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third_eye

"trust me "

:rofl:

~

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acidhead

 

Edited by acidhead
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2 hours ago, third_eye said:

"trust me "

:rofl:

~

The joke may be on me but I actually DO trust him to at least TRY to do the right thing.  I learned very early on to just wait a few beats.  Things always seem to go his way in the end.  I was against abandoning people that fought with us - even though it was in their interest to do so.  I have to admit that going to open conflict, even by mistake, against a NATO ally would be a huge step down a road we might not be able to easily return from.  That said, Erdog's economy should be sweated early and often if he allows a lot of revenge-taking or even if he allows wholesale ISIS escapees to return to battle.  My understanding is that most of those prisoners originated in Europe.  If they were captured while under arms they should have been eliminated before allowing them to just return to battle.  

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Gwynbleidd
10 hours ago, and then said:

I'd really like to understand what's going on and why it became so critical for Erdogan right NOW to make this push. 

I would think it's all part of distraction. 

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Dumbledore the Awesome

This seems quite relevant to the topic:

ABC News ‘slaughter in Syria’ footage appears to come from a Kentucky gun range

Actually that does look fun.

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Manwon Lender
18 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

It appears that in its haste to paint the invasion of Syria by Turkey in the worse possible light - and by association, Donald Trump -  (as though that really needs doing), NBC published a report about the deaths of Christians in Syria as a result of the Turkish operation. 

The only problem is that - according to a Syrian Christian organisation - it's not true. No Christians have been killed. 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/syrian-christian-group-urges-nbc-not-to-mislead-public/1611071


I find it interesting that now President Trump is saying he never gave Turkey the Green Light. He is really back peddling at this point, in fact he has started placing sanctions on Turkey. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that Turkish Artillery almost killed some US Soldiers the other day. This is really becoming a mess, but at least the Kurds are getting support from Syrian Military forces, just have to see where all this goes.

I hope none of our soldiers are wounded or killed, in my opinion they should all be out of there by now. I still wonder what's going to happen to the 10,000+ ISIS soldiers in Kurdish prisoner camps, Turkey says that the Kurds have released some of them, which I don't beleive, I suspect they just escaped.

i also find it interesting that the Russians support both Turkey and Syria, I wounded which side they will take before this over my money is on Syria.

JIMO
 

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Manwon Lender
34 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

This seems quite relevant to the topic:

ABC News ‘slaughter in Syria’ footage appears to come from a Kentucky gun range

Actually that does look fun.

That's a ****ing Joke!! The wonderful American News media at its finest.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
10 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I still wonder what's going to happen to the 10,000+ ISIS soldiers in Kurdish prisoner camps, Turkey says that the Kurds have released some of them, which I don't beleive, I suspect they just escaped.

No need to worry, I'm sure the Syrian Army won't delay in rounding them up. And i'm sure they'll treat them with all the fair treatment guaranteed to prisoners of war ... :innocent:

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odas
On 10/15/2019 at 3:11 AM, Manwon Lender said:


I find it interesting that now President Trump is saying he never gave Turkey the Green Light. He is really back peddling at this point, in fact he has started placing sanctions on Turkey. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that Turkish Artillery almost killed some US Soldiers the other day. This is really becoming a mess, but at least the Kurds are getting support from Syrian Military forces, just have to see where all this goes.

I hope none of our soldiers are wounded or killed, in my opinion they should all be out of there by now. I still wonder what's going to happen to the 10,000+ ISIS soldiers in Kurdish prisoner camps, Turkey says that the Kurds have released some of them, which I don't beleive, I suspect they just escaped.

i also find it interesting that the Russians support both Turkey and Syria, I wounded which side they will take before this over my money is on Syria.

JIMO
 

Which side? It is not which side Russia is going to take, it which side Turkey, Syria and other middle east countries are taking.

I made aware of it during Obama's presidency. The middle east, the islamic countries are turning toward Russia. Case in point, Saudi Arabia now too. Unfortunately the US has proven themself to be only on one side in the ME. On Israels side. Everyone else is just used acording to US needs. Trump is not completely to blame on this one, he just put the last nail in the coffin.

Putin proved to be a much more stable partner in everyway possible than the US.

I hate him, but I admire his genius. He took half of the world and got the US on it's knees by puting Trump into the presidency.

Regardles now who will be the president of US in 2020, Putin secured his position as the master of the world.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, odas said:

I hate him, but I admire his genius. He took half of the world and got the US on it's knees by puting Trump into the presidency.

I like your first part of the post but the above is pure bullspit. 

And I don't want to get onto domestic politics in this thread but it is clear that when the US pulled out it left **Russian backed** Syrian forces to fill the vacuum and go fight the Turks. Force the Ruskies to spend their rubles and soldiers on what should be a US job done for Putin.

Is this what you call Trump being Vlad's puppet in the white house? 

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Tatetopa
8 hours ago, odas said:

Putin proved to be a much more stable partner in everyway possible than the US.

I hate him, but I admire his genius. He took half of the world and got the US on it's knees by puting Trump into the presidency.

Regardles now who will be the president of US in 2020, Putin secured his position as the master of the world.

Interesting point. I am thinking about the Incerlik base we might abandon.  Not going to lose any weapons or troops, but we will be gone.

Who wins?  Putin.  He uses his pawn Erdogan  to look threatening and unstable.  We move from a base that has nuclear weapons and strong air power  an hour or less from southern targets in Russian.  If we move them to Saudi Arabia, that is 20-30 minutes further away.  That is more warning.  If we flew in to Russia from Saudi Arabia we would have to  detour or cross less friendly  Turkish air space. 

What do you bet that he can settle things down between his two friends Turkey and Syria as soon as we are out of the picture.  Andthen's  idea about a base in Iraqi Kurd controlled territory might be strategic, but not likely to happen now.

Putin is having a great bro reunion with the Emirates and Saudi Arabia.  Is he relieving us of the responsibility of being world policeman? If we wanted to get out of world involvement, I'm sure Russia will be glad to help us.

Maybe that is not such a bad thing. I guess it depends on how we accomplish that.

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and then
On 10/15/2019 at 1:40 AM, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

This seems quite relevant to the topic:

ABC News ‘slaughter in Syria’ footage appears to come from a Kentucky gun range

Actually that does look fun.

It really does.  When I was in basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina many years ago we were marched out to some raised stands and were treated to a live fire demonstration, Army-style.  The thing I remember most was the incredible amount of noise.  They fired M-60s, light anti-tank weapons at old APCs and detonated fragmentation grenades as well as firing larger mortars out to half a mile or so. 

The grenades were placed on a raised mound of earth - like a pitcher's mound in baseball.  They detonated them remotely and they demonstrated the "kill vs wound" effective blast radius.  It was cool.  They had red balloons staked out at 5 meters, white at 10 meters and blue at 15 meters.  There were a total of 50-60 balloons and every one of them popped.  If they all caught shrapnel then I'd definitely not want to be around a real one.  Nasty.

That LAW, tube fired anti tank weapon was NOTHING like the bottle-rocket affair you see in movies.  It sounded like the world's loudest shotgun and it covered 250 meters to the target before the sound reached us 1/2 mile away.

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and then
On 10/15/2019 at 2:11 AM, Manwon Lender said:

President Trump is saying he never gave Turkey the Green Light. He is really back peddling at this point,

I'm not clear on how you came to this conclusion.  Is there a video or recording where he stated that he DID give them a green light?  I haven't seen it.  The impression I got was he spoke to Erdog and was told that Turkey had waited as long as they were going to wait.  Trump then decided to pull the guys out of the line of fire to avoid casualties and a potential fight between NATO allies.  I think Erdog made promises about the scope and duration of his fight to clear the Kurdish "terrorists" and after a couple of days it became obvious he had lied (imagine that) so Trump decided to drop the sanctions hammer on his pathetic, lying self.  I hope Trump turns Mnuchin loose and Lindsey Graham rides with him on the hit :w00t: 

Between economic pressure and a force of Russian MPs and their entourage coming into the zone, Erdog may just call it good and live to fight another day.

Edited by and then

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