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RoofGardener

Turkish Invasion and the US Media

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Manwon Lender
5 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

How dare he try to seek ... try to seek cooperation and harmonious relations with other countries! I'm - I'm so spluttering with indignation I nearly sprayed tea all over my keyboard! 

I agree he should try and expand harmonious relations with other countries. It's his underlying intentions that I am concerned with, but time will tell if I am right or wrong. 

Sorry for making you spit up on your key board, that is a good example of the conflict between Russia and the Ukraine. I will bet that many people did more than spit up when the Pro Russian forces start their attack. But maybe that's what Russia calls Harmonious relations. 

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Manwon Lender
14 minutes ago, and then said:

They would but the nature of those regimes precludes such a relationship.  Two apex predators won't share the same territory for long.  

I agree that they both sense weakness in America and that makes things dangerous because they might get adventurous and miscalculate but I think the real danger for America today is the internal strife that is weakening us in front of the world.  I think those who are attempting to take out a duly elected president should pay the price with their lives after a trial shows exactly what they did.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I wasn't talking only about America. My comments were directed at the entire world. Hell recently for the first time Russia and China are having Large Scale Naval drills, and I suspect that's only the beginning. I think it is only a matter of time before they start openly working closely together, I mean look at the two Leaders.

One goes back to China's communist beginnings and makes himself the Supreme Leader until his death. The other (Putin) basically does the same thing, but he uses elections that are fixed so he will never lose or he just locks up all of his opponents. Either way the result is the same. I also have to disagree that the nature of those regimes precludes them from working together and combining forces. I think this become very apparent in the near future.

JIMO

 

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7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I also have to disagree that the nature of those regimes precludes them from working together and combining forces. I think this become very apparent in the near future.

I guess time will tell.  The two of them could well work together against their biggest challenger until America is no longer a threat but historically, there is NO love lost between China and Russia.  Russia is dying, demographically and does not welcome immigrants so Putin's moves can't amount to a resurgence of the old USSR.  China, OTOH, has too many people and their experiment with capitalism has created a fundamental weakness that didn't exist before the recent prosperity took hold.  That economy they've built at our expense is a delicate balance for them and they can't allow it to stumble too much without risking internal strife, possibly even chaos.  Sure, they have no problem with slaughtering dissenters but they'd prefer not to do so in public - bad for business.  

I heard about those joint naval exercises.  You'll pardon me if I can't get too excited about a threat from 2 navies that boast a total of 2 carriers between them.  China is building a blue water navy but they're a long way from matching the power projection the U.S. enjoys.  Maybe in a decade they'll be a real threat but not today.  The only way Russia or China become an existential threat to America is if they used nukes.  I actually could see Putin using low yield devices on NATO troops if he took some of the Baltic countries and NATO's forces began to roll his armor up like a cheap cigar.  He's a cocky, prideful man who's political survival is based on his persona of strength.  he couldn't allow himself to be seen as weak.  That makes him dangerous.

Xi and China won't risk throwing their progress away because they've lost patience.  That's not the way their culture works.

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Hammerclaw

Political Cartoons by AF Branco

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Dark_Grey
11 hours ago, odas said:

How do I know you are not russian intelligence?

Хиллари для тюрьмы

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Manwon Lender
10 hours ago, and then said:

I guess time will tell.  The two of them could well work together against their biggest challenger until America is no longer a threat but historically, there is NO love lost between China and Russia.  Russia is dying, demographically and does not welcome immigrants so Putin's moves can't amount to a resurgence of the old USSR.  China, OTOH, has too many people and their experiment with capitalism has created a fundamental weakness that didn't exist before the recent prosperity took hold.  That economy they've built at our expense is a delicate balance for them and they can't allow it to stumble too much without risking internal strife, possibly even chaos.  Sure, they have no problem with slaughtering dissenters but they'd prefer not to do so in public - bad for business.  

I heard about those joint naval exercises.  You'll pardon me if I can't get too excited about a threat from 2 navies that boast a total of 2 carriers between them.  China is building a blue water navy but they're a long way from matching the power projection the U.S. enjoys.  Maybe in a decade they'll be a real threat but not today.  The only way Russia or China become an existential threat to America is if they used nukes.  I actually could see Putin using low yield devices on NATO troops if he took some of the Baltic countries and NATO's forces began to roll his armor up like a cheap cigar.  He's a cocky, prideful man who's political survival is based on his persona of strength.  he couldn't allow himself to be seen as weak.  That makes him dangerous.

Xi and China won't risk throwing their progress away because they've lost patience.  That's not the way their culture works.

I will give you a situation where they are both working together, North Korea. The thing I don't understand is why they would want a Crazy Dictator like Kim in their own back yard with Nuclear Weapons. But they both are advising Kim, against the United States and at least one of them is disregarding the sanctions to help him financially maybe both it isn't completely clear yet.

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Black Red Devil
18 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Be careful Putin himself may be reading this thread. But I do agree with you, the Russians are playing the long game and I agree that the situation should be watched closely. Putin has made friendly gestures to every enemy, and almost every friend of the United States. But I think the close relationship he has been building with China is the most dangerous. Together they could certainly be a formidable force that could dominate a large portion of the world, and that would not be good for any Nation.

JIMO

Good point but greedy egocentric unproclaimed dictators usually don't like to share. Also, China is no match for Russia's military power and Russia owes a lot of its economic success as an emerging Economy to it's trade with China, which is it's main trader. As partners they could undermine the US and it's Western partners but I doubt they're partnership would be as solid and trustworthy as that of western nations.

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Manwon Lender
1 minute ago, Black Red Devil said:

Good point but greedy egocentric unproclaimed dictators usually don't like to share. Also, China is no match for Russia's military power and Russia owes a lot of its economic success as an emerging Economy to it's trade with China, which is it's main trader. As partners they could undermine the US and it's Western partners but I doubt they're partnership would be as solid and trustworthy as that of western nations.

Unless they decided to split their areas of influence. Russia could focus on the West, China could focus on the East and they could support each other's efforts globally. I think a partnership like this is very possible, simply because their efforts would be much stronger together than apart. This would give them the ability to achieve both their goals, without causing trouble in either ones backyards. 

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37 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Unless they decided to split their areas of influence. Russia could focus on the West, China could focus on the East and they could support each other's efforts globally. I think a partnership like this is very possible, simply because their efforts would be much stronger together than apart. This would give them the ability to achieve both their goals, without causing trouble in either ones backyards. 

Megalomania isn't a patient attribute.  As I said, I'm sure they can work together to accomplish shared objectives but once their primary threat is neutralized then they start planning how to shank their "partner" before he can get his shiv in their ribs.  It's the way of the jungle.

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Manwon Lender
13 minutes ago, and then said:

Megalomania isn't a patient attribute.  As I said, I'm sure they can work together to accomplish shared objectives but once their primary threat is neutralized then they start planning how to shank their "partner" before he can get his shiv in their ribs.  It's the way of the jungle.

That's what is kinda going on in NATO right now.

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Manwon Lender
22 minutes ago, and then said:

Megalomania isn't a patient attribute.  As I said, I'm sure they can work together to accomplish shared objectives but once their primary threat is neutralized then they start planning how to shank their "partner" before he can get his shiv in their ribs.  It's the way of the jungle.

 You forgot to answer this question.  I will give you a situation where they are both working together, North Korea. The thing I don't understand is why they would want a Crazy Dictator like Kim in their own back yard with Nuclear Weapons. But they both are advising Kim, against the United States and at least one of them is disregarding the sanctions to help him financially maybe both it isn't completely clear yet.
 

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3 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

 You forgot to answer this question.  I will give you a situation where they are both working together, North Korea. The thing I don't understand is why they would want a Crazy Dictator like Kim in their own back yard with Nuclear Weapons. But they both are advising Kim, against the United States and at least one of them is disregarding the sanctions to help him financially maybe both it isn't completely clear yet.
 

I'm not sure how much influence Putin has with Kim.  I'd imagine Xi is the main godfather of the Norks.  I think they depend on China for nearly all their staple goods and fuel as well as parts for their missiles and so forth.  If anything I think Putin's role is as a prod to use when Xi gets a little recalcitrant with his aid.  But I'm no expert in that area.  It definitely benefits both Russia and China for Kim to be a threat to the U.S.  It's worth the investment to keep a dog that's ready to bite the person you WANT bitten.  I'd be surprised if China or Russia assisted Kim with enough tech to make his ballistic missiles accurate enough to threaten Russia or China.  Or, they may install their own proprietary systems and have the equivalent of a kill switch to use in case the little cheese gobbling nutter went of the rails.

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Manwon Lender
1 minute ago, and then said:

I'm not sure how much influence Putin has with Kim.  I'd imagine Xi is the main godfather of the Norks.  I think they depend on China for nearly all their staple goods and fuel as well as parts for their missiles and so forth.  If anything I think Putin's role is as a prod to use when Xi gets a little recalcitrant with his aid.  But I'm no expert in that area.  It definitely benefits both Russia and China for Kim to be a threat to the U.S.  It's worth the investment to keep a dog that's ready to bite the person you WANT bitten.  I'd be surprised if China or Russia assisted Kim with enough tech to make his ballistic missiles accurate enough to threaten Russia or China.  Or, they may install their own proprietary systems and have the equivalent of a kill switch to use in case the little cheese gobbling nutter went of the rails.

This Kim has made trips to both Russia and China. There is little doubt that they assisted Kim with Rocket program, and continue to do so. I think they are also using Kim for part of their disinformation programs being used on the internet. This a joint venture and only go's to show even more that China and Russia have some similar interests in North Korea.

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

Unless they decided to split their areas of influence. Russia could focus on the West, China could focus on the East and they could support each other's efforts globally. I think a partnership like this is very possible, simply because their efforts would be much stronger together than apart. This would give them the ability to achieve both their goals, without causing trouble in either ones backyards. 

That's exactly the point and if they did, it wouldn't last long before ones ego got in the way.

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Manwon Lender

Its ok, I understand that many don't agree with my view of Russia and China. I truly hope I am wrong, because if I am not the repercussions will be devastating not only for America, but also the entire world. 

Thanks for everyone's input concerning my ideas on this situation.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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