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BrooklynGuy

The War on Faith in America

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GoldenWolf

I thought the U.S. was a country for all people.

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ExpandMyMind
16 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said:

I thought the U.S. was a country for all people.

Since when?

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GoldenWolf
3 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Since when?

Since March 4, 1789.

2 minutes ago, aztek said:

it was, until the rise of liberalism

:rolleyes:

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ExpandMyMind
6 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said:

Since March 4, 1789

All people were treated great back then, I hear. 

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Desertrat56
1 hour ago, BrooklynGuy said:

A good article on the efforts to rid our country of all religion and the positive role faith plays in society imho. Only 69 days till Christmas. :santa:

William Barr explains how people who hate religion are ruining our country

Judging by the spittle-flecked hatred coming his way, Attorney General Bill Barr scored a bull’s-eye on the intolerant left with his speech at Notre Dame Saturday defending religious liberty. For 50 years, he said, militant secularists have been waging deliberate war on the Judeo-Christian morality that underpins our system of government, with terrible consequences for the health of our society, including family breakdown, alienated males, drug addiction, depression and suicide. He explained that the Founding Fathers set up America as a unique “experiment” in which they trusted the people to govern themselves.

Read more: https://nypost.com/2019/10/16/devine-perverse-william-barr-bashing-makes-little-sense/

I guess I will go see if I can find an article to counter this one because in my  opinion it is the religious who are against other religions who are ruining this country.  Which is the biggest reason that people hate religion.

And that "intolerant left" description is so vague and unrealistic, yes, there are lots of polarized people nowadays emotionally spewing insane accusations at each other but it is both ends of the spectrum, not just one.  This article is just a justification for more bad behaviour.

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quiXilver

"we hold these truths to be self evident... that all men are created equal."

written by white men, who owned men, women and children, as property...

white, land-holding men considered other white, land-holding men, to be equal perhaps... at one time.

all others were/are chattle to be used in the for profit scheme of life as a business venture...

 

The intolerance of the religious extremists to any but 'their own' seems the only constant to emit over the centuries, from the rancid pool of fearful intolerance known as religious fundamentalism...  which is well on its way to becoming a recognized mental disorder in modern psychiatry.

 

America was started as a for profit business venture by European nobility and elites... and it still is for profit; now run by the corporatocracy and the lobby/law making body peopled by the oligarchical pool of for profit law scribing... Nearly every aspect about life in 'murica has been monetized for profit; from birth to school to health care to day care to elderly care to food to transportation to entertainment to parking to land 'ownership' to death cremation and bruial.

The push back on religious fanatacism is a natural response to the unmittigated onslaught of anti gay, anti brown skin, anti woman aggression that has reigned unchecked for as long as written history records it. 

 

Edited by quiXilver
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OverSword
56 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

"we hold these truths to be self evident... that all men are created equal."

written by white men, who owned men, women and children, as property...

white, land-holding men considered other white, land-holding men, to be equal perhaps... at one time.

all others were/are chattle to be used in the for profit scheme of life as a business venture...

 

The intolerance of the religious extremists to any but 'their own' seems the only constant to emit over the centuries, from the rancid pool of fearful intolerance known as religious fundamentalism...  which is well on its way to becoming a recognized mental disorder in modern psychiatry.

 

America was started as a for profit business venture by European nobility and elites... and it still is for profit; now run by the corporatocracy and the lobby/law making body peopled by the oligarchical pool of for profit law scribing... Nearly every aspect about life in 'murica has been monetized for profit; from birth to school to health care to day care to elderly care to food to transportation to entertainment to parking to land 'ownership' to death cremation and bruial.

The push back on religious fanatacism is a natural response to the unmittigated onslaught of anti gay, anti brown skin, anti woman aggression that has reigned unchecked for as long as written history records it. 

 

:passifier:

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OverSword
2 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Since when?

1965

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Desertrat56

@BrooklynGuy Here are a couple of links for you. 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/donald-trump-bill-barr-setting-religious-war-trap.html

After details of the speech, which was a closed-door event, got out, progressives objected to Barr’s embrace of a broad American theocracy and willingness to blame American ills on the fact that “public agencies—including public schools—are becoming secularized.” In asserting that it’s progressivism, atheism, and secularism to blame for “the wreckage of the family … record levels of depression and mental illness, dispirited young people, soaring suicide rates, increasing numbers of angry and alienated young males, an increase in senseless violence and a deadly drug epidemic,” the nation’s top law enforcement officer was blaming non–Judeo-Christian Americans for social trends for which they are not to blame and also are not even true. Unsurprisingly, his defenders took the wrong lesson from all this. Barr deftly positioned himself as a religious hero performing religious heroism yet again. William McGurn at the Wall Street Journal jumped to blame “the left” and “leftists” for overreacting to Barr’s temperate views:

 

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/10/attorney-general-barr-rages-against-secularist-assault-on-religion/

Barr’s comments come as he is under a cloud of scandal for his active involvement in trying to find evidence of the unproven theory that Ukraine colluded with Democrats during the 2016 election—an effort that took Barr to Italy this year and may have dragged him into the Ukraine scandal that set of an impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/welcome-to-the-resistance-bill-barr/2019/10/14/da24cd20-eec0-11e9-8693-f487e46784aa_story.html

To be clear: This was not merely an affirmation — delivered by a devout Catholic, while visiting a Catholic university — of how privately taught religious values can contribute to character development or stronger communities.

No. This appeared to be a tacit endorsement of theocracy

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/william-barr-secularism-religion-drug-abuse-violence_n_5da151a3e4b02c9da04a8e8d

The speech revealed how deeply the top lawman in the nation is tied to his Catholicism as he lashed a recent New Jersey law requiring LGBTQ curriculum in public schools to support civil rights. He complained that laws are being “used as a battering ram to break down traditional moral values.”

 

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Tatetopa

Is it possible that democracy  and equality  are in themselves not friendly to hierarchically  organized religions?

  For a couple of thousand years, the way to God was through a priest.  If the church did not like you, or you didn't do what they wanted, they could excommunicate you, cut you off from God.  That works OK in a totalitarian government, but in the face of equality of persons and the supposed personal relationship Christians have with their God, this seems ludicrous and offensive.

Preserving the reputation of the church at the expense of  suppressing knowledge of abuse of its most vulnerable seems hypocritical in the extreme. 

Finding no reason to speak up against the extermination of  Indians or the enslavement of Blacks seems counter to how the message of care for the stranger, help for the poor, and loving your neighbor.

Finding obscure Old Testament verses to justify  behaviors while disregarding what Jesus said, which should be the most important message of the Bible, seems to be hypocritical and makes some modern churches irrelevant.

It may not be a "War" on individual beliefs and a personal  relationship with a creator but with seemingly self-serving organizations that choose profitability over principles. 

There are in this nation many individuals of diverse faiths who don't need a church or a famous TV preacher to challenge their worthiness in the eyes of the creator.  

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BrooklynGuy
13 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

@BrooklynGuy Here are a couple of links for you. 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/donald-trump-bill-barr-setting-religious-war-trap.html

After details of the speech, which was a closed-door event, got out, progressives objected to Barr’s embrace of a broad American theocracy and willingness to blame American ills on the fact that “public agencies—including public schools—are becoming secularized.” In asserting that it’s progressivism, atheism, and secularism to blame for “the wreckage of the family … record levels of depression and mental illness, dispirited young people, soaring suicide rates, increasing numbers of angry and alienated young males, an increase in senseless violence and a deadly drug epidemic,” the nation’s top law enforcement officer was blaming non–Judeo-Christian Americans for social trends for which they are not to blame and also are not even true. Unsurprisingly, his defenders took the wrong lesson from all this. Barr deftly positioned himself as a religious hero performing religious heroism yet again. William McGurn at the Wall Street Journal jumped to blame “the left” and “leftists” for overreacting to Barr’s temperate views:

 

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/10/attorney-general-barr-rages-against-secularist-assault-on-religion/

Barr’s comments come as he is under a cloud of scandal for his active involvement in trying to find evidence of the unproven theory that Ukraine colluded with Democrats during the 2016 election—an effort that took Barr to Italy this year and may have dragged him into the Ukraine scandal that set of an impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/welcome-to-the-resistance-bill-barr/2019/10/14/da24cd20-eec0-11e9-8693-f487e46784aa_story.html

To be clear: This was not merely an affirmation — delivered by a devout Catholic, while visiting a Catholic university — of how privately taught religious values can contribute to character development or stronger communities.

No. This appeared to be a tacit endorsement of theocracy

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/william-barr-secularism-religion-drug-abuse-violence_n_5da151a3e4b02c9da04a8e8d

The speech revealed how deeply the top lawman in the nation is tied to his Catholicism as he lashed a recent New Jersey law requiring LGBTQ curriculum in public schools to support civil rights. He complained that laws are being “used as a battering ram to break down traditional moral values.”

 

Thanks for the links Desertrat56, though you lost a little credibility by posting anything from that bastion of impartiality the Huffpost. Next time use fair and balanced Fox News. ;)

I like your zeal but I wasn't talking about Barr's motives or credibility. My original question, is there a war on religion in this country or maybe a better question would be a war on our ability to practice it freely? I know folks like to point out the religious extremism causing so many problems around the world however really what I'm talking about here is my right or anybody's right to practice their faith as they see fit just as it is the rights of others to practice theirs or not practice any faith at all. People trying to take Christ out of Christmas is just one example of many. I think what gets lost with the focus on religious extremism, clergy sexual abuse, financial extravagance and other problems associated with the church/religion is all the good works that are done by people as a result of their Faith and the principles associated with it. Any way just my 2 cents.

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XenoFish

War against imaginary friend *cough* I mean god.

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OverSword
34 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Is it possible that democracy  and equality  are in themselves not friendly to hierarchically  organized religions?

  For a couple of thousand years, the way to God was through a priest.  If the church did not like you, or you didn't do what they wanted, they could excommunicate you, cut you off from God.  That works OK in a totalitarian government, but in the face of equality of persons and the supposed personal relationship Christians have with their God, this seems ludicrous and offensive.

Preserving the reputation of the church at the expense of  suppressing knowledge of abuse of its most vulnerable seems hypocritical in the extreme. 

Finding no reason to speak up against the extermination of  Indians or the enslavement of Blacks seems counter to how the message of care for the stranger, help for the poor, and loving your neighbor.

Finding obscure Old Testament verses to justify  behaviors while disregarding what Jesus said, which should be the most important message of the Bible, seems to be hypocritical and makes some modern churches irrelevant.

It may not be a "War" on individual beliefs and a personal  relationship with a creator but with seemingly self-serving organizations that choose profitability over principles. 

There are in this nation many individuals of diverse faiths who don't need a church or a famous TV preacher to challenge their worthiness in the eyes of the creator.  

I don't think he ever specifically mentions any hierarchical organized religion.  I myself am religious but don't believe in organized religion.  However, everyone should recognize where he was speaking, Notre Dame is a Catholic College and a Catholic audience is likely who he was addressing.  Regardless of his position in our government William Barr is welcome to his own opinions and free to express them as guaranteed in our constitution. As well, he being attacked for this opinion only serves to strengthen the truth of his statement for those that already agree with him.

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

No religious fanatic or fundamentalist would ever have signed a constitution separating church from state and giving everyone the right to follow any religion they choose. 

I don't know if he's a fanatic but Roger Williams, who founded the Providence Plantations that later became Rhode Island, argued for separation of church and state and seemed pretty fundamentalist. 

From https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/god-government-and-roger-williams-big-idea-6291280/ :

Quote

The American part of the story began when John Winthrop led 1,000 men, women and children to plant the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1630. These Puritans were disgusted with what they regarded as corruption in the Church of England and the tyranny of the crown. Seeking simple worship and personal intimacy with God, Puritan ministers were compelled—upon pain of imprisonment—to wear the surplice and use the Book of Common Prayer, and their congregants were compelled to participate in what they regarded as rote worship. As they set out from England that April, Winthrop reminded them of their purpose, to establish a “citty upon a hill” dedicated to God, obeying God’s laws and flourishing in God’s image as a model for all the world to see.

Williams, who had developed a reputation for scholarship and piety as a clergyman in England, brought his family to the colony a few months later. Winthrop hailed him as “a godly minister,” and the Boston church immediately offered him a post, the greatest such position in English America. But Williams declined, spurning the church as insufficiently committed to the proper worship of God. This astonishing charge would put him at odds with the colony’s leaders till the day he died.

Williams did not differ with them on any point of theology. They shared the same faith, all worshiping the God of Calvin, seeing God in every facet of life and seeing man’s purpose as advancing the kingdom of God. But the colony’s leaders, both lay and clergy, firmly believed that the state must prevent error in religion. They believed that the success of the Massachusetts plantation depended upon it.

Williams believed that preventing error in religion was impossible, for it required people to interpret God’s law, and people would inevitably err. He therefore concluded that government must remove itself from anything that touched upon human beings’ relationship with God. A society built on the principles Massachusetts espoused would lead at best to hypocrisy, because forced worship, he wrote, “stincks in God’s nostrils.” At worst, such a society would lead to a foul corruption—not of the state, which was already corrupt, but of the church.

Pretty bright guy and he had somewhat of an opposite perspective I think from some other proponents of separation; he's not trying to protect the state from churches, he's protecting his church from the state/other churches.

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Liquid Gardens
11 minutes ago, BrooklynGuy said:

My original question, is there a war on religion in this country or maybe a better question would be a war on our ability to practice it freely?

The main freedom that the religious in this country think there is a 'war' on is their 'freedom' to discriminate against people.  Thankfully we do have some laws in place to prevent their exercising some of that questionable 'freedom'.

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OverSword
4 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I don't know if he's a fanatic but Roger Williams, who founded the Providence Plantations that later became Rhode Island, argued for separation of church and state and seemed pretty fundamentalist. 

From https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/god-government-and-roger-williams-big-idea-6291280/ :

Pretty bright guy and he had somewhat of an opposite perspective I think from some other proponents of separation; he's not trying to protect the state from churches, he's protecting his church from the state/other churches.

Then maybe I should have limited my description to fanatics.  

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Dark_Grey
1 minute ago, Liquid Gardens said:

The main freedom that the religious in this country think there is a 'war' on is their 'freedom' to discriminate against people.  Thankfully we do have some laws in place to prevent their exercising some of that questionable 'freedom'.

Right...nothing to do with Government intervention (gay wedding cake,) removal of prayers in School, head scarf laws, hate crimes or anything like that. Only racist people are religious :rolleyes:

Try thinking outside of identity politics. Otherwise, you may end up racist yourself without even realizing it.

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aztek
7 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

The main freedom that the religious in this country think there is a 'war' on is their 'freedom' to discriminate against people.  Thankfully we do have some laws in place to prevent their exercising some of that questionable 'freedom'.

you mean  war on people who discriminate against others religious beliefs?  like in gay cake case? 

should your imaginary gender be above my religious beliefs? 

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aztek
Just now, Dark_Grey said:

Right...nothing to do with Government intervention (gay wedding cake,) removal of prayers in School, head scarf laws, hate crimes or anything like that. Only racist people are religious :rolleyes:

Try thinking outside of identity politics. Otherwise, you may end up racist yourself without even realizing it.

pretty clear is it way past that point

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Tatetopa
9 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I don't think he ever specifically mentions any hierarchical organized religion.  I myself am religious but don't believe in organized religion.

He doesn't have to, it is implied by where he is.   Many of us find ourselves somewhere out there with you.  

It is tougher to be tolerant if you have a doctrine to protect.  

But you are right, he can say anything he wants and people can disagree with him.

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Desertrat56
7 minutes ago, BrooklynGuy said:

Thanks for the links Desertrat56, though you lost a little credibility by posting anything from that bastion of impartiality the Huffpost. Next time use fair and balanced Fox News. ;)

I like your zeal but I wasn't talking about Barr's motives or credibility. My original question, is there a war on religion in this country or maybe a better question would be a war on our ability to practice it freely? I know folks like to point out the religious extremism causing so many problems around the world however really what I'm talking about here is my right or anybody's right to practice their faith as they see fit just as it is the rights of others to practice theirs or not practice any faith at all. People trying to take Christ out of Christmas is just one example of many. I think what gets lost with the focus on religious extremism, clergy sexual abuse, financial extravagance and other problems associated with the church/religion is all the good works that are done by people as a result of their Faith and the principles associated with it. Any way just my 2 cents.

OK.  I thought you were posting that as an agreement or premise to what you think.

My short answer is No, that so called war is manufactured to bully people into changing laws unconstitutionally.

I have not seen any attacks on people being able to worship as they see fit except by christians.  The bombing of a muslim place of worship, or white christians burning a black christian's church, not enough to seem like a war AND perpetrated by christians.   It is one crazy group attacking another group.  Any time I hear christians claiming they are down trodden in the U.S. it makes me want to laugh and it makes me angry because all the disrespect and abuse I have ever received in relation to religion was christian relatives telling me I am going to burn in hell or something just as bad.  So maybe my opinion is skewed (definitely bias) by my experiences. 

I do not see a war against religion, what I see is a war against other religion perpetrated by the christians.  Also, a war perpetrated by religious people like William Barr who have authority trying to claim that this is a christian country and our government should change to adhere to his beliefs and morals or lack thereof.  His suggestions are totally unconstitutional and he is the warmonger trying to change our country to a christian theocracy.  And he is not alone in his attempt. 

There is no proof that I have seen that religion of any type makes a person more responsible or a better citizen.  In fact if I see a business sign proclaiming an affiliation with a religion that has nothing to do with the type of business I will avoid that business.  (experience leads me to believe those proclamations are lies to get gullible people to give them money)

I agree somewhat with quiXilver about the founding of this country being based on profit, but those people were rational enough and burned by the British rule to know that religion has no reasonable place in a representative democracy.  The British were the template of our constitution and the differences were what the founders believed would keep the government from becoming just like the British government that they were resisting.

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Tatetopa
6 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

Right...nothing to do with Government intervention (gay wedding cake,) removal of prayers in School, head scarf laws, hate crimes or anything like that. Only racist people are religious :rolleyes:

Try thinking outside of identity politics. Otherwise, you may end up racist yourself without even realizing it.

Sorry, I was too slow to catch this point.  Could you back up a bit and explain a bit further?  

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