The War on Faith in America

[Agent0range]

On 10/24/2019 at 5:31 PM, BrooklynGuy said:

Let's assume for a minute that the shop owner in fact does have a deep belief in God that gives him great comfort and because of his literal interpretation of some passages in the bible

If that shop owner was so deeply religious, he would realize that we are ALL sinners, therefore, choosing what sin to serve and not to serve is judging, essentially doing the work of God.  That's one of the worst sins there is.  Do the owners serve fat people?  Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.  The religious freedom argument falls apart completely when you actually dissect it.  How about we all just do what Jesus would do?  Would he turn that couple away?  

You can call it a war on religion, but religious people are deviating extremely far from what there religion was meant to stand for...

[Tatetopa]

On 10/24/2019 at 2:31 PM, BrooklynGuy said:

My point is this, one struggling group of folks trying to keep another struggling group of folks down only serves to keep all of us down.

That is wonderfully said Brooklyn.  It is the tool used most frequently to keep us divided, unsure of ourselves, and sometimes unable to take advantage of the rights this great country and its rule of law grants to all citizens.  It applies  universally  and can be used with all differences to keep people apart. As in your own example, it is not limited to religion.

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, lightly said:

 Dare I say Love?   It seems that word is becoming a nonsensical word to many people...love is just chemicals in the brain after all ? It's all very scientific and heartless.

Take it beyond love even and think empathy, the ability to imagine our self in someone else's circumstances  or even as a kindred being trying to stay alive.  I think whether it is chemicals in the brain or some other mechanism, it works.   On the science side of things,  evidence points to other primates and many monkeys that have that ability.  We had it before we had religion.  Maybe our empathy is the cause of religion and not the other way around.

[lightly]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

True, but high morals are rarely taught in church.  Too much cognitive dissonance to even get a grip on what is really taught in church and most atheists spend a lot of time teaching their children what they believe is morally correct without any fear of some deity smiting them for any mis-step or breaking of imaginary rules that have nothing to do with being kind, loving and helpful.

      . .now that's Funny !   ..as the son of a Methodist minister's daughter,  I do remember hearing in church, Much more about what NOT to do.  

Come to think of it, the place really wasn't very uplifting !  It seemed to make me feel sort of guilty...which makes sense.  ;

[lightly]

34 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Take it beyond love even and think empathy, the ability to imagine our self in someone else's circumstances  or even as a kindred being trying to stay alive.  I think whether it is chemicals in the brain or some other mechanism, it works.   On the science side of things,  evidence points to other primates and many monkeys that have that ability.  We had it before we had religion.  Maybe our empathy is the cause of religion and not the other way around.

Word brother !   ya, I mentioned empathy earlier,  and as for Love , most of us KNOW it exists in nature,...not just human nature.

I see it all the time. .   and we Share the reality of it with beloved kittys and doggies .

[Tatetopa]

Talking about something relatively minor like wedding cakes makes it pretty easy to proclaim that individual religious freedom comes first.  Christians can feel attacked and embattled when they only want to hold on to their beliefs.

What if the circumstance is more dire?  What if it was turned around?

Lets say for example that a billionaire atheist  buys the drug company with the patent on insulin.  Or maybe a Saudi prince looking to divest his oil fortunes buys HMO's and all of the hospitals and clinics in  a couple of major cities.  Or maybe it is a denomination of Christians that operates all of the hospitals in an area.

Ant that person or group says, "We believe that all Christians have a covenant with God and he judges their lives.  If God judges you and strikes you or your family with a disease, that is between you and God.  If he will not cure you by prayer, it is our belief that human interference defies the will of God, so no Christian will receive medical treatment from us.  All of those who are of other faiths or have no faith are welcome in our facilities.

Is that a war on Christian faith, or just a person's basic right to practice their religion?  Would Christians support that exclusion?  Would other people in the community accept it and  say tough luck Christians?

Life and death is a lot more serious than a wedding cake isn't it?   But is the principle of personal faith  not the same?  Do we stand up for each other when some of us are oppressed, or do we watch it happen?

[BrooklynGuy]

Some interesting reading from The Equality and Human Rights Commission

Article 9: Freedom of thought, belief and religion

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-9-freedom-thought-belief-and-religion

[BrooklynGuy]

This ‘Christmas City’ In Pennsylvania Might Be the Most Festive In the Entire Country

Christmas is a magical time with lights illuminating the streets and holiday cheer an infectious feeling. But one town takes that to the next level. The little town of Bethlehem — Pennsylvania, that is — takes its name seriously, enjoying a unique chance to ring in the holiday season. And between the traditional Christmas market and the 81-foot-tall steel star that sits above it all, the people of this small Pennsylvania city don’t leave any yuletide stone unturned.

Read more: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/christmas-city-pennsylvania-might-most-140101003.html

[Dark_Grey]

21 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Ant that person or group says, "We believe that all Christians have a covenant with God and he judges their lives.  If God judges you and strikes you or your family with a disease, that is between you and God.  If he will not cure you by prayer, it is our belief that human interference defies the will of God, so no Christian will receive medical treatment from us.  All of those who are of other faiths or have no faith are welcome in our facilities.

I think you just described Jehovas Witnesses. Or at least their attitude toward transplants and blood transfusions.

Quote

Is that a war on Christian faith, or just a person's basic right to practice their religion?  Would Christians support that exclusion?  Would other people in the community accept it and  say tough luck Christians?

I don't believe most Christians would support withholding medicine from people that need it. In fact, I think they would be against it. Most Christians aren't die-hard fundamentalists but rather have a more rational view of the world. As long as it doesn't conflict with the Bible, which modern medicine does not, it's fine for them. Your example is extreme but it's a good argument against individual religious rights that harm the collective.

Quote

Life and death is a lot more serious than a wedding cake isn't it? 

Of course it is. The vast majority of Christians would see it that way as well.

Quote

 But is the principle of personal faith not the same?  Do we stand up for each other when some of us are oppressed, or do we watch it happen?

That's where it gets messy. The principle of personal faith is basically the same but not every tenant of the Bible holds the same weight for today's Christians. For example, no Christian is worried about wearing two types of cloth.

The Bible's views on homosexuality are not equal to it's commandments on causing death and suffering. Christianity has been modernized for a while now and most Christians can separate old Jewish stigmas from serious crimes. The cake maker can turn away a gay couple based on his personal beliefs while also not wishing any harm to befall them.

[BrooklynGuy]

Joe Biden denied Communion at Mass because of abortion stance

Democratic front-runner Joe Biden reportedly was denied Communion by a priest at a South Carolina Catholic church over the weekend. Biden, a lifelong Catholic, stopped by Saint Anthony Catholic Church in Florence on Sunday, but was denied Holy Communion by the Rev. Robert E. Morey, local newspaper the South Carolina Morning News reported. “Sadly, this past Sunday, I had to refuse Holy Communion to former Vice President Joe Biden,” Morey told the newspaper in a statement. “Holy Communion signifies we are one with God, each other and the Church. Our actions should reflect that. Any public figure who advocates for abortion places himself or herself outside of Church teaching.”

Read more: https://nypost.com/2019/10/29/joe-biden-denied-communion-at-mass-because-of-abortion-stance/

[BrooklynGuy]

I just got back from Mass and was working on my Fantasy Football Line ups when I noticed a headline on Yahoo about this story. Listen don't tell my Wife this because she will make me sleep on the couch for a week, but she thinks I go to Mass every Sunday to save my soul but really I just go for the free Dunkin coffee and donuts and the nice conversations afterwards in the Rectory. I got to thinking though that I always feel better after I go so I want to recommend it to my very nice Agnostic friends. I know you folks can't make up your minds on whether or not there is a God, much like the Brits struggling with the whole Brexit mess, but why not hedge your bets just in case? Now here's a head scratcher, the NFL decided not to fine Demario Davis of the New Orleans Saints for wearing a "Man of God" headband. And here I thought it was against the rules to wear any unapproved uniform items? Could it be the hand of God touched Mr. Goodell? Well the nice folks over at CBN thinks so. 

'Man of God' Movement Explodes After NFL Player's Headband Fine: 'Just Shows You the Power of God'

NFL player Demario Davis of the New Orleans Saints is giving all the glory to God for the huge upward movement from his "Man of God" headbands. Davis was originally fined $7,000 by the NFL for wearing a headband that said "Man of God" under his helmet during a game on September 22. After some public backlash, the NFL eventually backed down, but not before it had unintentionally created a new "Man of God" movement, fueled by Demario Davis and his supporters.

Read more: https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/entertainment/2019/october/man-of-god-movement-explodes-after-nfl-players-headband-fine-just-shows-you-the-power-of-god

[preacherman76]

I’ve read enough of this thread to get the jist of it. 

I agree that the church in many ways has been corrupted. I also agree that this should be a country for all beliefs to exist. 

All that being said, the fall of the church seems to have brought just as many problems as it has solved. Maybe more. It would be great if we all could agree to follow a certain moral compass. Something that binds us all together, and keeps us responsible toward one another. 

I’m afraid that day will never come. We will just continue to descend into depravity. The suicide rate alone proves there is something very wrong about the way we are going about things. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by preacherman76

[Tatetopa]

13 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

It would be great if we all could agree to follow a certain moral compass. Something that binds us all together, and keeps us responsible toward one another. 

Very well put preacherman  I hope we do turn around, 

[+Desertrat56]

On 11/3/2019 at 7:18 AM, BrooklynGuy said:

I just got back from Mass and was working on my Fantasy Football Line ups when I noticed a headline on Yahoo about this story. Listen don't tell my Wife this because she will make me sleep on the couch for a week, but she thinks I go to Mass every Sunday to save my soul but really I just go for the free Dunkin coffee and donuts and the nice conversations afterwards in the Rectory. I got to thinking though that I always feel better after I go so I want to recommend it to my very nice Agnostic friends. I know you folks can't make up your minds on whether or not there is a God, much like the Brits struggling with the whole Brexit mess, but why not hedge your bets just in case? Now here's a head scratcher, the NFL decided not to fine Demario Davis of the New Orleans Saints for wearing a "Man of God" headband. And here I thought it was against the rules to wear any unapproved uniform items? Could it be the hand of God touched Mr. Goodell? Well the nice folks over at CBN thinks so. 

'Man of God' Movement Explodes After NFL Player's Headband Fine: 'Just Shows You the Power of God'

NFL player Demario Davis of the New Orleans Saints is giving all the glory to God for the huge upward movement from his "Man of God" headbands. Davis was originally fined $7,000 by the NFL for wearing a headband that said "Man of God" under his helmet during a game on September 22. After some public backlash, the NFL eventually backed down, but not before it had unintentionally created a new "Man of God" movement, fueled by Demario Davis and his supporters.

Read more: https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/entertainment/2019/october/man-of-god-movement-explodes-after-nfl-players-headband-fine-just-shows-you-the-power-of-god

Sounds like a marketing ploy to me.  If it was under his helmet how would anyone know he wore it until the news of the fine?  I don't watch football but I am thinking that no one knew until then.  Even if you watch on television can you read what is on their headband if they take their helmet off?  God didn't have anything to do with this, who ever makes money from selling those headbands to the mind numbed zombies did.  Why would any deity care what we wear on our heads, mainly because that head band did not promote any specific deity, just the general word used for what ever deity you believe in.  zombies, always wasting time on nonsense news.

P.S.  Let agnostics be, they will make their own decision just like atheists and believers.  We all get to have our own say.

As for the going to church to visit, that is the best part aside from the singing.  It is a social time and maybe you need more of that and you will see that you feel better afterwards whether it is in the rectory or at a park or someone's back yard.  The difference with the interaction after mass is that only some of the people have consumed alcohol (and most just a sip) and almost everyone is alert and enjoying themselves without any imbibing of mind altering substances. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Desertrat56
P.S.

[BrooklynGuy]

On 10/19/2019 at 2:56 AM, Kismit said:

I am not sure what Santa clause and Christ have to do with each other, other than a shared date. Or was Santa perhaps an otherwise unmentioned wise man? Frankincense, gold,  myrhh and candy canes?

Thanks for the reply. However I can't help but wonder what happened to my earlier post on being intigued by your participation in this thread and your reply? Just seems strange considering my post and your reply here were allowed to stay up.

Edited November 5, 2019 by BrooklynGuy

[BrooklynGuy]

3 hours ago, BrooklynGuy said:

Thanks for the reply. However I can't help but wonder what happened to my earlier post on being intigued by your participation in this thread and your reply? Just seems strange considering my post and your reply here were allowed to stay up.

Never mind, it was my mistake, I found them they were in another thread. BTW that was a good one I never heard that one before. 

[BrooklynGuy]

On 11/4/2019 at 10:26 AM, Desertrat56 said:

Sounds like a marketing ploy to me.  If it was under his helmet how would anyone know he wore it until the news of the fine?  I don't watch football but I am thinking that no one knew until then.  Even if you watch on television can you read what is on their headband if they take their helmet off?  God didn't have anything to do with this, who ever makes money from selling those headbands to the mind numbed zombies did.  Why would any deity care what we wear on our heads, mainly because that head band did not promote any specific deity, just the general word used for what ever deity you believe in.  zombies, always wasting time on nonsense news.

P.S.  Let agnostics be, they will make their own decision just like atheists and believers.  We all get to have our own say.

As for the going to church to visit, that is the best part aside from the singing.  It is a social time and maybe you need more of that and you will see that you feel better afterwards whether it is in the rectory or at a park or someone's back yard.  The difference with the interaction after mass is that only some of the people have consumed alcohol (and most just a sip) and almost everyone is alert and enjoying themselves without any imbibing of mind altering substances. 

Will do Desertrat56 and I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. 

[Farmer77]

28 minutes ago, BrooklynGuy said:

Never mind, it was my mistake, I found them they were in another thread.

I hate it when I do that!

[BrooklynGuy]

29 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I hate it when I do that!

Me too, it's quite embarrassing 

[Gummug]

On 11/3/2019 at 8:18 AM, BrooklynGuy said:

I just got back from Mass and was working on my Fantasy Football Line ups when I noticed a headline on Yahoo about this story. Listen don't tell my Wife this because she will make me sleep on the couch for a week, but she thinks I go to Mass every Sunday to save my soul but really I just go for the free Dunkin coffee and donuts and the nice conversations afterwards in the Rectory. I got to thinking though that I always feel better after I go so I want to recommend it to my very nice Agnostic friends. I know you folks can't make up your minds on whether or not there is a God, much like the Brits struggling with the whole Brexit mess, but why not hedge your bets just in case? Now here's a head scratcher, the NFL decided not to fine Demario Davis of the New Orleans Saints for wearing a "Man of God" headband. And here I thought it was against the rules to wear any unapproved uniform items? Could it be the hand of God touched Mr. Goodell? Well the nice folks over at CBN thinks so. 

'Man of God' Movement Explodes After NFL Player's Headband Fine: 'Just Shows You the Power of God'

NFL player Demario Davis of the New Orleans Saints is giving all the glory to God for the huge upward movement from his "Man of God" headbands. Davis was originally fined $7,000 by the NFL for wearing a headband that said "Man of God" under his helmet during a game on September 22. After some public backlash, the NFL eventually backed down, but not before it had unintentionally created a new "Man of God" movement, fueled by Demario Davis and his supporters.

Read more: https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/entertainment/2019/october/man-of-god-movement-explodes-after-nfl-players-headband-fine-just-shows-you-the-power-of-god

אמר נבל בלבו, אין אלהים  "The fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God' "

[Raptor Witness]

Raptor Witness     2,133

•  
•   #169  
•  

Posted October 23, 2019

Jesus was a great liberal in His day. In fact, He was a flaming liberal.

He stood up for women, when the established thinking was to put poor women in their place, and even murder them. He stood up for children, in no uncertain terms, when they were to be seen and not heard. These were the weakest members of His society. Yet, He even went further, with the story of the good Samaritan, which was the foreigner. Contrast this with the Justice Department's rabid treatment of Christians attempting to access our southern border and you have the teachings of Darkness.

Attorney General William Barr, by seeking to divide U.S. serves only one purpose. He is the opposite of Jesus Christ.  For this reason, the plagas against him and his political house shall swell like a tsunami. They will hear the rumbling of the earth, but think nothing of it, until they are swept away, and into the sea, never to be seen or heard from again. Covered with silt and sorrow, until the end of time, far and away, into the abyss.

Mater, perdat vomitu in parallel lines

Edited October 23, 2019 by Raptor Witness

•  

Mater = Mother

perdat = destroy

vomitu = vomit, sickness 

In the context here, waves move in parallel lines. “like a tsunami”

[Raptor Witness]

On 10/21/2019 at 11:04 PM, Raptor Witness said:

This is just another attempt to divide the country, which the only game left for the conservative right. 

Godlessness begins with a secular government, which was the expressed design of the constitutional founders.  So if the gates to Hell are wider, as Jesus taught, then how can any democracy long survive?

If the fear of God is the solution to America's illness, then let the plagas begin with fire from heaven, poured out upon Washington, D.C. in full view of men.

 

[quiXilver]

The freedom to practice one's religious beliefs ends precisely where it begins to infringe on the unalienable rights of another citizen.  You know.  The rights conferred by the Constitution and the Articles of Ammendment thereof.

 

There is not a war on Christianity.  But there is finally a pushback on the centuries of systemic infringement of other's rights under the guise of 'doing God's Will', or 'simply following my beliefs'.  This is not a war, it is balancing and stemming systemic bigotry and classism.

 

Your right to practice a belief, any belief ends wherever it infringes on another's Constitutional conferred Rights.

[Indiogene]

Americans are divided on how much religion we have in government and cultural life...esp. certain regions of the US (i.e. the Deep South) tends to have a stronger religious (Evangelical Protestant Christian) social ethos. For a long time, conservatism has prevented the US from developing a social democratic system you normally find in the first world. And still, our nation was founded on the principle of religious freedom and the majority of Americans permitted non-Christian religions and non-Protestant churches to flourish.