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BrooklynGuy

The War on Faith in America

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and then
12 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No one's opinion matters anyway. None of these 'debates' amount to anything.

Pssst... you do know attendance is voluntary, yeah?  :D

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XenoFish
Just now, and then said:

Pssst... you do know attendance is voluntary, yeah?  :D

Is that supposed to be humorous?

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, and then said:

So your answer is that the single child/parent have the right to suppress the ability for others to pray together if they choose to do so.  Let me ask it this way: Should students who want to voluntarily embrace their religion on school grounds by meeting for Bible study after classes be allowed to do so or does that also infringe on the so called "separation" clause?  I use the disclaimer because I feel that interpretation is in error.  Liberal court members took: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

That is exactly what I talked about in my post to you, and it is not legal to use public school property to have a religious meeting.  The lawsuits in the 80's proved that, two different judges found it to be wrong to insist on allowing religious groups to meet as if they are school activities.  Now that I know more about the boy scouts, I understand why they do not meet on school property, though girl scouts are allowed.

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aztek

prayer issue is only an  infringement issue when, someone is either prohibited, or made to pray against their will,  if someone does not like others to pray it is not infringement issue,  they can go pound sand

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Earl.Of.Trumps
7 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

I thought the U.S. was a country for all people.

operative word...  was

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and then
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Is that supposed to be humorous?

Well, yeah.  It isn't my goal to be perpetually in conflict with people, even when they are obviously trying to push my buttons at times.  I just found it a bit odd that you'd take the time to join a discussion you say you had no interest in, that's all.  The truth is I've begun to be worried about just how out of control  the state of discourse has become.  It is so overly toxic theses days that it's difficult to have a conversation that doesn't devolve into a spitting contest and I'm trying to clean up my side of street, as they say.  

Reminds me of some lyrics from CSN  - DAYLIGHT AGAIN

"When everyone's talking and noone is listening, how, can we survive?

One of their better songs.

 

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OverSword

Is this part of the war on faith I wonder?

resized_250588-otus-0825_52-25002_t800.j

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and then
6 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

That is exactly what I talked about in my post to you, and it is not legal to use public school property to have a religious meeting.  The lawsuits in the 80's proved that, two different judges found it to be wrong to insist on allowing religious groups to meet as if they are school activities.  Now that I know more about the boy scouts, I understand why they do not meet on school property, though girl scouts are allowed.

Fair enough.  One last thing... these rules began to be imposed in the 80s give or take.  When you contrast the problems kids had then with what they face now do you feel the exclusion of the knowledge of God and His rules made things better?  Remember, we don't make a habit in our legal system of focusing on the letter of a law while ignoring its spirit.  No one would intentionally enforce a code that might have been written in haste or error if enforcing it was going to do grievous harm, would they?  So in that light, was the perceived insult worth the disintegration we see today?

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XenoFish
6 minutes ago, and then said:

you'd take the time to join a discussion you say you had no interest in, that's all. 

My interest is why in the hell people believe in god, in religion. Is there something wrong with them? I could never truly understand why anyone would devote so much time and energy into believing something that simply doesn't exist. To learn word for word a text that is completely fabricated by the imagination and desire of people. Why? Just why? What is so lacking in their lives that they believe such things and then feel that have to impose their 'rightness' onto others? 

God as far as I can tell, either doesn't exist or doesn't care. It's just people and people are the problem. We should go extinct. 

Edited by XenoFish

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and then
10 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Is this part of the war on faith I wonder?

resized_250588-otus-0825_52-25002_t800.j

It's just another symbol of the disintegration of cohesiveness in our country.  Every group seems to need to be at enmity with others instead of just focusing on live and let live.  An alien visiting from another galaxy might wonder why so many hated a belief system that sought to reach out to do good to strangers and the dispossessed.  

Edited by and then
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Desertrat56
1 minute ago, and then said:

Fair enough.  One last thing... these rules began to be imposed in the 80s give or take.  When you contrast the problems kids had then with what they face now do you feel the exclusion of the knowledge of God and His rules made things better?  Remember, we don't make a habit in our legal system of focusing on the letter of a law while ignoring its spirit.  No one would intentionally enforce a code that might have been written in haste or error if enforcing it was going to do grievous harm, would they?  So in that light, was the perceived insult worth the disintegration we see today?

I don't think religion has anything to do with the problems kids had then versus the problems they face now.  It has nothing to do with anyone's god.

And I don't understand why people keep bringing up "His rules" 'when there is no agreement on what those rules are.  The rules do not come from any god, they come from humans who want to impose order or their idea of order on the rest of the world. 

The laws that we follow and have put in place in the U.S are not ordained by god, they are agreed upon by humans. 

What perceived insult are you referring to?  Our society is changing but for the most part is not disintegrating.  Maybe I misunderstand your point.  It would be helpful for you to list evidence or your idea of what indicates society is disintegrating.

 

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XenoFish
7 minutes ago, and then said:

It's just another symbol of the disintegration of cohesiveness in our country.  Every group seems to need to be at enmity with others instead of just focusing on live and let live.  An alien visiting from another galaxy might wonder why so many hated a belief system that sought to reach out to do good to strangers and the dispossessed.  

Hmm, it's almost as if you oppose someone else's beliefs....Do they not have the right to their own belief systems, same for the pagans and the like?

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Michelle
29 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

The problem I have is people complaining that prayer is not allowed in school.  I have never seen that, and yes it is illegal to force prayer in a public school which is different from praying in school.

Complaint questions constitutionality of prayer before Tennessee high school football game

BRADLEY COUNTY, Tenn. — High school football is over, but a prayer before a Tennessee high school's game last October is sparking controversy.

A public Facebook video shows a student leading an invocation over the loud speaker before a Bradley Central football game.

"I pray for their safety and great sportsmanship," said the student in the video. "And Lord I want to thank you for everyone getting here safe tonight."

cont...

https://fox17.com/news/local/complaint-made-about-prayer-before-bradley-central-football-game-01-22-2018

Tennessee Community Stands With Coach Who Prayed With Team, Students Take The Lead In Prayer

Students at Rockvale High School in Tennessee plan to lead their own prayer before their football game this week. That decision comes after a complaint was lodged against their football coach for praying with his team after a game on August 30. 
 
Coach Rick Rice was called on the carpet after the Freedom From Religion Foundation, supposedly in response to an anonymous parent's tip, filed a complaint with the Rutherford County, Tennessee school system. The FFRF said Rice violated the Constitution by leading the team in prayer.

cont...

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019/september/tennessee-community-stands-with-coach-who-prayed-with-team-students-take-the-lead-in-prayer

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aztek

is practice of religion limited to prayers? there is much more about religion than prayers,  prayers actually the smallest part.  

Edited by aztek
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Desertrat56
4 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Complaint questions constitutionality of prayer before Tennessee high school football game

BRADLEY COUNTY, Tenn. — High school football is over, but a prayer before a Tennessee high school's game last October is sparking controversy.

A public Facebook video shows a student leading an invocation over the loud speaker before a Bradley Central football game.

"I pray for their safety and great sportsmanship," said the student in the video. "And Lord I want to thank you for everyone getting here safe tonight."

cont...

https://fox17.com/news/local/complaint-made-about-prayer-before-bradley-central-football-game-01-22-2018

Tennessee Community Stands With Coach Who Prayed With Team, Students Take The Lead In Prayer

Students at Rockvale High School in Tennessee plan to lead their own prayer before their football game this week. That decision comes after a complaint was lodged against their football coach for praying with his team after a game on August 30. 
 
Coach Rick Rice was called on the carpet after the Freedom From Religion Foundation, supposedly in response to an anonymous parent's tip, filed a complaint with the Rutherford County, Tennessee school system. The FFRF said Rice violated the Constitution by leading the team in prayer.

cont...

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019/september/tennessee-community-stands-with-coach-who-prayed-with-team-students-take-the-lead-in-prayer

 

School prayer in the United States if organized by the school is largely banned from public elementary, middle and high schools by a series of Supreme Court decisions since 1962. Students may pray privately, and join religious clubs in after-school hours. Public schools are those operated by government agencies, such as local school districts. They are banned from conducting religious observances such as prayer. Private and parochial schools are not covered by these rulings, nor are colleges and universities. Elementary and secondary schools are covered because students are required to attend, and are considered more at risk from official pressure than are older students and adults. The Constitutional basis for this prohibition is the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which requires that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer_in_the_United_States

Obviously the coach is an employee of the school and organized the prayer.  That is the problem, not that a prayer was said.  People do seem to go overboard on things, but the rule from 1962 came from the Supreme court which means someone sued for it.  I have never seen this as a problem in New Mexico but I did see a lot of this kind of thing as a problem when I lived in Georgia.  And it was the school principal that caused the problems. (another thing he did is require all white, male senior students attend an assembly that was purely a recruitment for the KKK)

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Michelle

It was a student led prayer the coach participated in.

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GoldenWolf
38 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Is this part of the war on faith I wonder?

resized_250588-otus-0825_52-25002_t800.j

I thought they were at war with everything.

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aztek

why is the star on his head is not upside down?  

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, Dark_Grey said:

t's freedom for everybody or freedom for nobody. Today's progressive issue is subject to change so the underlying current must always be to support individual freedoms. Anyone is free to be gay, the business owner is free to refuse customers at his own discretion.

Can a business owner refuse service to Blacks ?  Can  a business owner refuse service to Jews?  What does it mean to have freedom for everybody?  Does it mean we only have to respect and deal with  the people we approve  of?  That is great in private life,  Everybody has that right.

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Michelle
1 minute ago, Tatetopa said:

Can a business owner refuse service to Blacks ?  Can  a business owner refuse service to Jews?  What does it mean to have freedom for everybody?  Does it mean we only have to respect and deal with  the people we approve  of?  That is great in private life,  Everybody has that right.

Can a business refuse service to a person that is being disruptive or just being a jerk? What if that person happens to be black?

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lightly
7 hours ago, aztek said:

it was, until the rise of liberalism

(good grief).    .  The native inhabitants were killed off by liberals.  ?

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Tatetopa
Just now, Michelle said:

Can a business refuse service to a person that is being disruptive or just being a jerk? What if that person happens to be black?

I believe that they can.  People need to be treated like people and if they are jerks, they need to be treated like jerks.  Will there be a lawsuit?  I don'rt know, maybe.   That is where a security cam would come in handy.

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Desertrat56
3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Can a business owner refuse service to Blacks ?  Can  a business owner refuse service to Jews?  What does it mean to have freedom for everybody?  Does it mean we only have to respect and deal with  the people we approve  of?  That is great in private life,  Everybody has that right.

If a business chooses to refuse to do business with a specific group it is their choice as far as I can tell, but why would they, unless they are crazy like the cake incident.  That business probably lost a lot of customers.

In the 70's it was normal for a business in Augusta, Georgia to refuse service to black people.  And in Augusta the KKK proudly displayed their symbol in the windows of their businesses so any black person who entered were usually G.I.s who had never seen that symbol and they learned what it meant the first time.    That is frowned upon because the KKK is a hate group, but for some reason the people in Augusta thought it was normal back then and if you didn't agree you didn't go into that business.  Maybe that's what is needed, signs in the window, then there won't be any confusion.

At what point do you decide when to take away a business owner's right to determine who they do business with and when do you tell people to just go down the street?  It is a very emotional issue but it is not a legal issue.

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and then
36 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

It would be helpful for you to list evidence or your idea of what indicates society is disintegrating.

I'm like everyone else in that I only have my own frame of reference.  I judge my environment compared to what it was yesterday and so on.  By any objective standard we have coarsened incredibly as a society.  Can you not see that?  Places like Chicago and Detroit are like real war zones.  Drug abuse is rampant along with addiction to porn and all of the heartache and family destruction attending it.  But the primary offender, IMO, is technology and our use of social media rather than face to face human interaction.  

The problems we face are too numerous to try to list, actually.  If I had to use one single marker to point to how broken our culture is today it would be the rate of children killing themselves.  They have life easier and more prosperous than any before them yet they have no hope and apparently not even faith enough to dream.  This generation is NOT just another repeat of the pattern.  A new pattern is emerging.

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