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BrooklynGuy

The War on Faith in America

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Desertrat56
51 minutes ago, Michelle said:

So? Women are still being mentally and physically abused by men today too. Right this minute, I'm sure. They don't assume all men are brutes.

Black people my age and older are sick to death of hearing about racism all the time. They say these punks don't know what real racism is. They literally look for it and assume any reaction to their disruptive behavior is because they are black.

My daughter works with a guy like that.  He is just a whiner and there is no evidence that he is experiencing racism, especially because this is Albuquerque.  Racism is different here and never had anything to do with african americans, or even the color of someone's skin except if your skin is very very pale, always against natives by the descendants of the spainards and maybe a few ignorant foreigners (like from the midwest or new jersey).  You could expect bigotry based on the kind of boots you wear or the music you listen to, or whether you have a spanish name and speak spanish or not.  Or whether you are really white or more tan.   Honkey does not mean the same thing here and you never hear the other word.

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Liquid Gardens
19 minutes ago, Michelle said:

So? Women are still being mentally and physically abused by men today too. Right this minute, I'm sure. They don't assume all men are brutes.

I'm not sure where the 'all' has entered the equation, "black people" don't assume all white people are being racist either.  Some black people might, just as some women assume all men are brutes. Even though you don't assume all men are brutes, I'd bet that you nonetheless, and hopefully, are more careful around men in certain situations.  There are a lot of women who don't like to walk down a dark street or leave a bar alone, that's not typically out of a fear of strange women, and I think is a justified and rational approach.

32 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Black people my age and older are sick to death of hearing about racism all the time. They say these punks don't know what real racism is. They literally look for it and assume any reaction to their disruptive behavior is because they are black

This needs a lot more precision.  Unless you are involved in African-American studies or something I think you mean 'black people my age and older who I either personally know or have read', which is of course an incredibly tiny sample.  I've read plenty from black people your age and older who say somewhat the opposite; agreed, things are obviously better for black people than they were, partly because the way things were was about the worst it could have been for them, but they're sick of people acting like racism was magically erased when some laws were passed, and are especially ticked about how much racism persists in law enforcement and the judicial system today.  Sexual harassment is something that, if I've estimated your approximate age correctly, has become far more noticed in our lifetimes, I'm not sure if it was a 'thing' at all when I was born.  But I don't say or imply that sexual harassment is not consequential or not unfair or not 'real' sexism because things are clearly far better than they used to be for women.

I'm not sure we're really disagreeing with each other here actually as I'm not sure we're quite talking about the same thing, we started with the hypothetical(?) black person being disruptive and then crying 'racist' when they're asked to leave a business which I agree is wrong and unfair in most cases.  The black people I refer to above who disagree with the idea that we just need to move forward concerning systemic racism in the justice system likely also object to black people playing the race card when they are legitimately being disruptive.  Are you referring to some incident that you personally witnessed with disruptive people falsely accusing businesses of racism?  You may just be referring to a hypothetical, since your original comment concerned more what the media would do with an incident like that.

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Michelle
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

This needs a lot more precision.  Unless you are involved in African-American studies or something I think you mean 'black people my age and older who I either personally know or have read', which is of course an incredibly tiny sample.

It's not exactly a tiny sample. My dad had a parts store in the hood, basically the same area my husband and I have had a welding shop for thirty years. In the 60's my dad would let blacks run a tab or barter for the parts they needed when money was low.

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

  Are you referring to some incident that you personally witnessed with disruptive people falsely accusing businesses of racism?  You may just be referring to a hypothetical, since your original comment concerned more what the media would do with an incident like that.

Nothing hypothetical about it. I saw it happen at my dad's store several times and usually a night or two later the windows would get broken out.

A few people have tried it at our welding shop. It just so happens that we have many black friends who are free to come in and use any piece of equipment we have any time it's available. One of them happened to be there each time someone has tried to pull that kind of stunt. They heard the commotion, some punk saying we are ripping them off or wouldn't work on something because they're black. Our friends came out from behind whatever they were working on and read them the riot act. If it hadn't been for them we could have been ruined in the news and on social media. It can very well turn into a dangerous situation these days...making us a target.

But, we are way off topic. Refusing service does not mean someone is a bigot against whoever they refuse. In certain cases, it happens to be against their religion. I can live with that. If people choose to boycott them...fine.

Edited by Michelle
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Tatetopa
19 hours ago, Michelle said:

Thank you.

The bolded sounds like an eye for eye except on any random stranger. Justifying it because of other people's past reactions is a terrible precedence to set. If that was the case I would hate and take it out on all men because I was severely wronged in the past. People need to look forward instead of dwelling on the past and gauging everything according to that.

It is a good point Michelle.  Sometimes this world bears a lot of resemblance to Lucy, Charlie Brown, and the football.  It is the running joke, he disregards the past, trusts that it will be different this time and lands on his back again.  For some people the past is only yesterday.  

Sadly, I could point to the fact that we have made a lot of progress in the last 50 years, but we still have a long ways to go.  It might take another 50 and I know many don't  want to accept that,  but I don't think even with us all trying to look forward it will happpen much quicker than that.

Forgive me if this is too personal of a question.  Based on your past experience, are there indications that might alert you to someone likely to do you wrong?

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Michelle
7 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Forgive me if this is too personal of a question.  Based on your past experience, are there indications that might alert you to someone likely to do you wrong?

First and foremost, stay away from anyone who is extremely jealous of any man you happen to talk to. After that, I had a list, pages long, that people told me was impossible. The only things I compromised on were being a packrat and a procrastinator. It's been the bane of my existence in our approximately thirty lovely years together. :lol:

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Desertrat56
25 minutes ago, Michelle said:

First and foremost, stay away from anyone who is extremely jealous of any man you happen to talk to. After that, I had a list, pages long, that people told me was impossible. The only things I compromised on were being a packrat and a procrastinator. It's been the bane of my existence in our approximately thirty lovely years together. :lol:

That is the first on my list too.  The second is if you are called a liar and you know you weren't lying, it indicates that person is a liar and is trying to deflect his/her bad behaviour onto you.

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, Michelle said:

It's not exactly a tiny sample. My dad had a parts store in the hood, basically the same area my husband and I have had a welding shop for thirty years. In the 60's my dad would let blacks run a tab or barter for the parts they needed when money was low

But there are 40 million blacks in America; the percentage of black people that any American knows is a tiny sample.  

1 hour ago, Michelle said:

Refusing service does not mean someone is a bigot against whoever they refuse. In certain cases, it happens to be against their religion.

Agreed, but I'd just note that those are not exclusive.  Whether one is motivated by 'racial science' garbage or instead by weirdo religious 'descendants of Ham, son of Noah' beliefs to be racist doesn't change that it's bigotry.

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Michelle
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

But there are 40 million blacks in America; the percentage of black people that any American knows is a tiny sample.

1. Why am I or my friends never included in political polls conducted for the media?
The reason is fairly simple. There are about 200 million adult or voting age Americans. But the average poll has a sample size of 1,000 adults. This means that only one person in 200,000 will be included in any one national or state poll. To put it another way, it would take 200,000 polls with samples of 1,000 for pollsters to get around to all Americans - and this assumes no one is called twice. 

http://www.ncpp.org/?q=node/6

I would say my experience is from well over a thousand people's opinions. My city is 33% black and I've been right smack in the middle of them most of my life.

You do know blacks are Americans too, right?

Edited by Michelle
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Kismit
15 hours ago, BrooklynGuy said:

Let's assume the people on this is board represents a wide variety of good folks with different thoughts and beliefs and we are a good representation of the country at large. If that is the case then sadly it appears 115 posts in to this topic that there is in fact a war on Faith in America by a small number of individuals who seem to struggle with the principle of live and let live. On a lighter note the good news is we live in a free country. On a sad note the mean people posting in this thread will not be getting a visit from Santa Claus this CHRISTmas.  :santa: :gun:

 

I am not sure what Santa clause and Christ have to do with each other, other than a shared date. Or was Santa perhaps an otherwise unmentioned wise man? Frankincense, gold,  myrhh and candy canes?

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BrooklynGuy

Interesting article on beliefs and practices. :santa:

Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians

A new study shows how poorly we understand the beliefs of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular. Americans are deeply religious people—and atheists are no exception. Western Europeans are deeply secular people—and Christians are no exception. These twin statements are generalizations, but they capture the essence of a fascinating finding in a new study about Christian identity in Western Europe. By surveying almost 25,000 people in 15 countries in the region, and comparing the results with data previously gathered in the U.S., the Pew Research Center discovered three things.

Read more: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/american-atheists-religious-european-christians/560936/

 

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Liquid Gardens
11 hours ago, Michelle said:

I would say my experience is from well over a thousand people's opinions. My city is 33% black and I've been right smack in the middle of them most of my life.

You not only know over a thousand blacks but you know them well enough for them to share their opinions on racism in America with you?  I'm a little skeptical about that but maybe people are different in Tennessee, which is the point.  You and I probably know even more white people but I'm hard-pressed to think of about any sentence I'd start with 'white people think...' based on that experience with them because there are major differences.  That applies to black people too. 

11 hours ago, Michelle said:

You do know blacks are Americans too, right?

No, I forgot that since the time I posted and you quoted from me 'there are 40 millions blacks in America'...  I like to find out what other people from other parts of the country and with different opinions than mine think but you're evidently antsy about something here so forget it, thanks for your opinions and input.

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BrooklynGuy

Another good assessment of the situation imho. :santa:

Regular Christians Are No Longer Welcome in American Culture

Yes, the 4th of July is the day of the year for lowering partisan flags and raising the red, white and blue one that unites us all. But for many American Christians who lean in toward traditionalism, these are anxious times. Traditional American Christians have long been on the losing end of culture-war contests—on school prayer, same-sex marriage and other issues. But recent events, including the Supreme Court decision overruling Texas’ restrictions on abortion clinics and the mandate that employers provide access to contraception, have added to the sense that religious expression is under attack.

Read more: https://time.com/4385755/faith-in-america/

Image result for pictures of manger scenes

 

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Rlyeh
On 10/18/2019 at 6:31 AM, and then said:

So, if a person rejects the beliefs of others then he is justified in suppressing their right to freely associate with like-minded people?  I mean, it really is that basic an issue.  I wouldn't dream of spending time arguing with or protesting over the beliefs of others who have a different faith or no faith at all.  The trend today seems to be the wholesale demonizing of dissenters whether due to their faith or politics.  Even if you feel it is justified, do you really believe it is good for the country?  

bull****.

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Xeno-Fish

If you think about it. Christmas isn't really a christian holiday. It's a way of selling a massive amount of goods under the guise of holiday cheer. I sometimes think that Santa is more known than Jesus.

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lightly
On October 18, 2019 at 11:16 AM, aztek said:

and there you go again,   my argument is actually sound,  we are not talking about things that happened 200 years ago,  you are the only one who does.  

 

Your argument was that this was a country for everyone "until the rise of liberalism".  You say that citing an example from 200 years ago is not "relevant".       OK,  then how about some more recent history ....like Japanese internment camps and whites only drinking fountains and riding in the back of the bus a few decades ago in this country for everyone?   Is that also not relevant in demonstrating the inaccuracy and  true irrelevance of your unsound "argument" ?

 

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Golden Duck
On 10/19/2019 at 1:23 AM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I agree. 

We don't tell men with a penis and a beard that they cannot call themselves a "woman". Why the hell should anyone care about Trudeau putting on black face and calling himself Afro? Like this is a life and death matter??? sheeesh.

I know Trudeau is a liberal but I stick up for him strictly on principle.

Hey man, you're rippin' off Chappelle.

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Golden Duck
On 10/19/2019 at 4:56 PM, Kismit said:

I am not sure what Santa clause and Christ have to do with each other, other than a shared date. Or was Santa perhaps an otherwise unmentioned wise man? Frankincense, gold,  myrhh and candy canes?

Santa Claus originates from a Christian figure, Saint Nicholas.

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Kismit
13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

If you think about it. Christmas isn't really a christian holiday. It's a way of selling a massive amount of goods under the guise of holiday cheer. I sometimes think that Santa is more known than Jesus.

every year our town holds a Christmas Parade. The local churches do a religious float, the Pacific Island community does a Islands themed float the belly dancers, scout group, brass band, fire service and at the end of the Parade is the Big man himself, Santa. But every year it is sadly apparent that the most exciting part of the parade to most of the kids is the appearance of Ronald Mcdonald. 

I prefer the Pagan feast celebration myself.

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aztek
1 hour ago, lightly said:

 

Your argument was that this was a country for everyone "until the rise of liberalism".  You say that citing an example from 200 years ago is not "relevant".       OK,  then how about some more recent history ....like Japanese internment camps and whites only drinking fountains and riding in the back of the bus a few decades ago in this country for everyone?   Is that also not relevant in demonstrating the inaccuracy and  true irrelevance of your unsound "argument" ?

 

liberal butt hurt detected, yes they really are destroying the country,  

ever heard there is a spirit of the law vs letter of the law? same for threads

Edited by aztek
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Kismit
5 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Santa Claus originates from a Christian figure, Saint Nicholas.

Maybe, however Link

Pre-Christian Europe[edit]

Hélène Adeline Guerber and others have drawn parallels between Sinterklaas and his helpers and the Wild Hunt of Wodan or Odin,[23] a major god among the Germanic peoples, who was worshipped in Northern and Western Europe prior to Christianization. Riding the white horse Sleipnir he flew through the air as the leader of the Wild Hunt, always accompanied by two black ravens, Huginn and Muninn.[24] Those helpers would listen, just like Zwarte Piet, at the chimney – which was just a hole in the roof at that time – to tell Wodan about the good and bad behaviour of the mortals.[25][26] Due to its speculative character, however, this older "Germanic" theory has little support among present-day scholars, although it continues to be popular in non-scholarly sources. At the same time, it seems clear that the Saint Nicholas tradition contains a number of elements that are not ecclesiastical in origin.[27

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Golden Duck
13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

If you think about it. Christmas isn't really a christian holiday. It's a way of selling a massive amount of goods under the guise of holiday cheer. I sometimes think that Santa is more known than Jesus.

I'm sure retailers also recognise the opportunities that exist around Diwali and Eid.

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Kismit
4 minutes ago, aztek said:

liberal butt hurt detected, yes they really are destroying the country,  

ever heard there is a spirit of the law vs letter of the law? same for threads

Threads on the Forum?

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Golden Duck
7 minutes ago, Kismit said:

Maybe, however Link

Pre-Christian Europe[edit]

Hélène Adeline Guerber and others have drawn parallels between Sinterklaas and his helpers and the Wild Hunt of Wodan or Odin,[23] a major god among the Germanic peoples, who was worshipped in Northern and Western Europe prior to Christianization. Riding the white horse Sleipnir he flew through the air as the leader of the Wild Hunt, always accompanied by two black ravens, Huginn and Muninn.[24] Those helpers would listen, just like Zwarte Piet, at the chimney – which was just a hole in the roof at that time – to tell Wodan about the good and bad behaviour of the mortals.[25][26] Due to its speculative character, however, this older "Germanic" theory has little support among present-day scholars, although it continues to be popular in non-scholarly sources. At the same time, it seems clear that the Saint Nicholas tradition contains a number of elements that are not ecclesiastical in origin.[27

That's cool; but, your question was querying the link between Santa Claus and Christ, not how exclusive it may be.  

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BrooklynGuy

View from the Right on the topic

Obama Waged A War On Religion?

https://www.npr.org/2012/01/08/144835720/has-obama-waged-a-war-on-religion

 

View from the Left on the topic

The Myth of a 'War on Religion'

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/the-myth-of-a-war-on-religion/371438/

 

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Raptor Witness
On 10/17/2019 at 9:56 AM, BrooklynGuy said:

A good article on the efforts to rid our country of all religion and the positive role faith plays in society imho. Only 69 days till Christmas. :santa:

William Barr explains how people who hate religion are ruining our country

Judging by the spittle-flecked hatred coming his way, Attorney General Bill Barr scored a bull’s-eye on the intolerant left with his speech at Notre Dame Saturday defending religious liberty. For 50 years, he said, militant secularists have been waging deliberate war on the Judeo-Christian morality that underpins our system of government, with terrible consequences for the health of our society, including family breakdown, alienated males, drug addiction, depression and suicide. He explained that the Founding Fathers set up America as a unique “experiment” in which they trusted the people to govern themselves.

Read more: https://nypost.com/2019/10/16/devine-perverse-william-barr-bashing-makes-little-sense/

This is just another attempt to divide the country, which the only game left for the conservative right. 

Godlessness begins with a secular government, which was the expressed design of the constitutional founders.  So if the gates to Hell are wider, as Jesus taught, then how can any democracy long survive?

If the fear of God is the solution to America's illness, then let the plagas begin with fire from heaven, poured out upon Washington, D.C. in full view of men.

Edited by Raptor Witness
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