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U.S. purchases Israeli Armor shield tech

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https://www.jewishpress.com/news/us-news/us-army-chooses-israeli-system-to-protect-tank-crews-lives/2019/10/19/ 

This is outstanding news for the men and women who serve in our armor units.  This Rafael Systems technology is awesome.  Israel has a knack for innovation when under stress that is unmatched in the world.  This device essentially senses incoming projectiles and fires down a curtain of steel shrapnel/pellets to detonate the warhead before it can penetrate the armor.

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Gromdor

It would be handy in a traditional war, but we really don't fight them anymore.  Threats these days are buried IEDs.  Can't really remember the last time we had to deploy tanks and had them destroyed.

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Captain Risky
21 minutes ago, and then said:

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/us-news/us-army-chooses-israeli-system-to-protect-tank-crews-lives/2019/10/19/ 

This is outstanding news for the men and women who serve in our armor units.  This Rafael Systems technology is awesome.  Israel has a knack for innovation when under stress that is unmatched in the world.  This device essentially senses incoming projectiles and fires down a curtain of steel shrapnel/pellets to detonate the warhead before it can penetrate the armor.

Paid for by the U.S. tax payer. 

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and then
3 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Paid for by the U.S. tax payer. 

Israel defense budget in 2018 was about 16 billion USD.  They received 3 Billion from us and 75% of that by law, MUST be spent on U.S. weapons/tech.  So they have a total of 3/4 billion per year for domestic purchases from that aid.  About 1/16 of their total.  So, yeah, every innovation, discovery or positive trend da Joos make is a freebie from America, right?  Does that sum up your opinion of da Jooos?

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Captain Risky
2 minutes ago, and then said:

Israel defense budget in 2018 was about 16 billion USD.  They received 3 Billion from us and 75% of that by law, MUST be spent on U.S. weapons/tech.  So they have a total of 3/4 billion per year for domestic purchases from that aid.  About 1/16 of their total.  So, yeah, every innovation, discovery or positive trend da Joos make is a freebie from America, right?  Does that sum up your opinion of da Jooos?

i have a very positive opinion of the Jewish state. 

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and then
10 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

i have a very positive opinion of the Jewish state. 

Is that so?  Typically when someone espouses the rhetoric about Americans paying for things that Israel does it implies just the opposite.  If I was in error, my apologies.

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Captain Risky
2 minutes ago, and then said:

Is that so?  Typically when someone espouses the rhetoric about Americans paying for things that Israel does it implies just the opposite.  If I was in error, my apologies.

I can be critical without being anti Israel. Im just pointing out that the U.S. gives Israel alot of money to develop weapons systems and then allows the Jewish state to make modifications and tech transfers that it wouldn't allow to others. The fact that they "sell" this tech, repackaged, back to the U.S. is strange to say the least. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

Paid for by the U.S. tax payer. 

LOL True that.  We give Israel $billions in defense aid every year and they develop stuff and sell it back to us! What a deal!  :)  

But it is seriously good looking technology.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, and then said:

Israel defense budget in 2018 was about 16 billion USD.  They received 3 Billion from us and 75% of that by law, MUST be spent on U.S. weapons/tech.  So they have a total of 3/4 billion per year for domestic purchases from that aid.  About 1/16 of their total.  So, yeah, every innovation, discovery or positive trend da Joos make is a freebie from America, right?  Does that sum up your opinion of da Jooos?

So according to your figures, Israel gets $2.25 Billion in free war stuff from the US every year and this has gone on for many many years. At one time we were giving Israel $5 billion a year when and is worth a lot more in todays dollars. 

Israel has TAKEN for a long long time. When do they ever GIVE?

Why doesn't Israel propose a Trade?? ya, know?  Even steven swap. 

I needn't an answer.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
45 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I can be critical without being anti Israel. 

Exactly.

Just as I can be critical AND anti-Israel :rolleyes:

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and then
1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

I can be critical without being anti Israel. Im just pointing out that the U.S. gives Israel alot of money to develop weapons systems and then allows the Jewish state to make modifications and tech transfers that it wouldn't allow to others. The fact that they "sell" this tech, repackaged, back to the U.S. is strange to say the least. 

As I said, the amount of money that we provide to Israel to be used INSIDE Israel for whatever they choose, is about 750 million annually.  They have a 16 billion dollar defense budget and about a 400 billion dollar GDP.  The numbers do not support the claim that we are substantially responsible for their output or innovations.  It just doesn't.  To my knowledge, Rafael Systems was an Israeli startup and this particular innovation came directly from the losses they suffered in the second Lebanon war.  Their Merkavas were devastated by the Russian Kornet missiles that they didn't know Hizballah owned.  Some of their weapons designers went to work on a solution and now they've proven its efficacy and are going to make a fortune off of their ingenuity while saving many American and Israeli lives.

I'm not sure why you'd think it strange that they would be rewarded for the intellectual creativity and innovation that will save U.S. troops in combat.  Do you imagine that a U.S. investment of 750 million dollars should qualify us for billions in return?  These systems are not modifications of U.S. tech.  In fact, Israel has an amazing record of tech advances that have benefitted the whole world.  That they sell this technology to other governments and citizens in the world should be no surprise unless you have some inherent bias against their desire to succeed and be wealthy just like everyone else.  They are our greatest ally in a very unstable region and less than 1 billion USD per year is a very small price to pay for the benefit we receive.  Admit it, you find fault with these numbers not because they are unbalanced against America but because you dislike anything or anyone that supports Israel.  It's cool, everyone has an opinion and it doesn't make you hateful.  I just think you're misinformed and unwilling to attempt to see the big picture because of your bias.

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Farmer77
46 minutes ago, and then said:

As I said, the amount of money that we provide to Israel to be used INSIDE Israel for whatever they choose

Its weird we didnt hold that money to make sure their PM wasnt corrupt. :rolleyes:

Netanyahu's pretrial corruption hearing begins as unity government talks falter

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third_eye

Just slap a Pro Democracy label on it and take it to the bank... 

~

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Tatetopa

I don't want to get into the politics of it, but I think andthen has a point about technology.

Even in the field I worked in, titanium aerospace components, there are a lot of Israeli papers online.  They seem to be very prolific in metallurgy, material science, composites, chemistry, physics, biology, medicine, genetics, AI, and computer science as well as defense.  They write good software and seem to have a number of companies leading in cyber-security and the dark side of that, hacking. a very significant portion of their economy is  high tech.

If you read the Wikipedia entry on education in Israel, it indicates that Israelis value and respect education and parents make sacrifices to get their children the best education possible to prepare themselves for a work force that demands a high degree of skill.

There might be a lesson in there for us if we want to stay competitive in the world economy..

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Captain Risky
2 hours ago, and then said:

As I said, the amount of money that we provide to Israel to be used INSIDE Israel for whatever they choose, is about 750 million annually.  They have a 16 billion dollar defense budget and about a 400 billion dollar GDP.  The numbers do not support the claim that we are substantially responsible for their output or innovations.  It just doesn't.  To my knowledge, Rafael Systems was an Israeli startup and this particular innovation came directly from the losses they suffered in the second Lebanon war.  Their Merkavas were devastated by the Russian Kornet missiles that they didn't know Hizballah owned.  Some of their weapons designers went to work on a solution and now they've proven its efficacy and are going to make a fortune off of their ingenuity while saving many American and Israeli lives.

I'm not sure why you'd think it strange that they would be rewarded for the intellectual creativity and innovation that will save U.S. troops in combat.  Do you imagine that a U.S. investment of 750 million dollars should qualify us for billions in return?  These systems are not modifications of U.S. tech.  In fact, Israel has an amazing record of tech advances that have benefitted the whole world.  That they sell this technology to other governments and citizens in the world should be no surprise unless you have some inherent bias against their desire to succeed and be wealthy just like everyone else.  They are our greatest ally in a very unstable region and less than 1 billion USD per year is a very small price to pay for the benefit we receive.  Admit it, you find fault with these numbers not because they are unbalanced against America but because you dislike anything or anyone that supports Israel.  It's cool, everyone has an opinion and it doesn't make you hateful.  I just think you're misinformed and unwilling to attempt to see the big picture because of your bias.

Im not bias. Just stating a fact. The military relationship between the U.S. and Israel is lop-sided. You're free to spin that in whatever way you like. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
35 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Im not bias. Just stating a fact. The military relationship between the U.S. and Israel is lop-sided. You're free to spin that in whatever way you like. 

What I don't like about and then's view of it all is, we give Israel x dollars to which they must spend 75% of it in the US, on war weapons. Like this means they don't get it FREE? of course it does, they get their weapons free.

It would just the same thing as the US saying, "Ok, Israel, take $2.5 Billion in war toys, free". Same difference.

So after all these years of this plush agreement, when does Israel give the US free war toys, or the money to buy Israel war goods?

Uh huh. They're a ONE WAY street, THEIR way.

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Captain Risky
1 minute ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

What I don't like about and then's view of it all is, we give Israel x dollars to which they must spend 75% of it in the US, on war weapons. Like this means they don't get it FREE? of course it does, they get their weapons free.

It would just the same thing as the US saying, "Ok, Israel, take $2.5 Billion in war toys, free". Same difference.

So after all these years of this plush agreement, when does Israel give the US free war toys, or the money to buy Israel war goods?

Uh huh. They're a ONE WAY street, THEIR way.

Im not bothered by the free aid. Im sure it suit U.S. interests having a strong natural ally in an otherwise rough neighbourhood. Gotta admit they're good negotiators.  

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and then
5 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

LOL True that.  We give Israel $billions in defense aid every year and they develop stuff and sell it back to us! What a deal!  :)  

But it is seriously good looking technology.

Man, don't damage your credibility by ignoring facts.  Fully 75% of that money BY LAW must be spent with U.S. defense contractors.  Yes, that is a sweet deal but it hardly accounts for the weapons systems they have pioneered or improved.  Rafael is all Israel.  They have also vastly improved their anti-air systems and shared that tech.  Those systems will be valuable in time.  Like it or not those guys and gals have a hell of a talent with hi-tech systems, weapons and in the medical research fields.  Also, they have a 400 billion dollar GDP so if we cut that 3 billion they'd hardly notice it.  Our defense contractors would melt down though.  We, however, might well miss the tech advantages we gain from working with them.

ETA - If you feel like we gain no value from that alliance then that's down to bias.  The stable, reliable territory from which we could defend the M.E. with a strong ally is well worth the money.  Of course, if your mindset is that we should pull back and do the fortress America thing it's easy to argue that Israel is disposable.  We'll probably do just that in the not too distant future because the importance of defending that oil is going down every year.  I think it's almost funny, almost, that Israel's enemies have for so long wanted America to stop defending them so they can get what's coming to them and when we actually do get out of the way those enemies are going to realize we weren't defending them, we were holding them back from delivering a beat-down so severe that they might not recover.  I think most people who are negative toward Israel tend to believe they are a paper tiger but the truth is that they appear as such because they are constrained by global public opinion and the UN AND America.  Take away those constraints and threaten them in an existential way and people are going to learn a lesson about just how capable the IDF is when the gloves come off.

Edited by and then

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Farmer77
1 hour ago, and then said:

  The stable, reliable territory from which we could defend the M.E. with a strong ally is well worth the money. 

Honest question. If Israel wasnt there what would the US have to defend?

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Captain Risky
18 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Honest question. If Israel wasnt there what would the US have to defend?

Good question. Now that Trump has signalled America's withdrawal from the Middle East the only real reason is Saudi Arabia and the oil states. 

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Gwynbleidd
6 hours ago, third_eye said:

Just slap a Pro Democracy label on it and take it to the bank... 

~

Wow, that sounded so much like Pelosi!  God love her! LOL

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Gwynbleidd
5 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Even in the field I worked in, titanium aerospace components, there are a lot of Israeli papers online.  They seem to be very prolific in metallurgy, material science, composites, chemistry, physics, biology, medicine, genetics, AI, and computer science as well as defense.  They write good software and seem to have a number of companies leading in cyber-security and the dark side of that, hacking. a very significant portion of their economy is  high tech.

This here is what those of us who are researching the Epstein scandal are coming across.  Lots and lots of connections to all of those areas you've mentioned.  Scary stuff. 

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aztek
15 hours ago, and then said:

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/us-news/us-army-chooses-israeli-system-to-protect-tank-crews-lives/2019/10/19/ 

This is outstanding news for the men and women who serve in our armor units.  This Rafael Systems technology is awesome.  Israel has a knack for innovation when under stress that is unmatched in the world.  This device essentially senses incoming projectiles and fires down a curtain of steel shrapnel/pellets to detonate the warhead before it can penetrate the armor.

um, soviets developed it in 80s, it was called "shtora" and russians improved it in 90s system "arena".  this one is no different. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_(countermeasure)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtora-1

the downside for all those systems, is you can't have your men anywhere near such vehicle, it will kill anything around it when it goes off.

Edited by aztek

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and then
11 hours ago, aztek said:

um, soviets developed it in 80s, it was called "shtora" and russians improved it in 90s system "arena".  this one is no different. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_(countermeasure)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtora-1

the downside for all those systems, is you can't have your men anywhere near such vehicle, it will kill anything around it when it goes off.

Thanks for that link, aztec.  I wasn't aware there were other versions out there.  Did they field test it and widely incorporate it in their armor?  I don't know how expensive it is but it seems to have been tested enough to be worthwhile.  The combat doctrine for infantry moving with armor in the U.S. versus the IDF would be an interesting study.  I guess I assumed they were very similar in their fundamentals so if this system works for the IDF it should for the U.S. Army and Marine Corps.

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DarkHunter
1 hour ago, and then said:

Thanks for that link, aztec.  I wasn't aware there were other versions out there.  Did they field test it and widely incorporate it in their armor?  I don't know how expensive it is but it seems to have been tested enough to be worthwhile.  The combat doctrine for infantry moving with armor in the U.S. versus the IDF would be an interesting study.  I guess I assumed they were very similar in their fundamentals so if this system works for the IDF it should for the U.S. Army and Marine Corps.

There are some notable and significant differences between all of them.

Arena was designed in the early 90's and fires a small rocket to detonate near the incoming missile to destroy it.  It is essentially an evolution of the Drozd system from the 70s.

Shtora is completely different being a purely electro-opitcal system.  Basically Shtora doesnt destroy incoming missiles but tries to cause guided missiles to lose their lock on by jamming signals and using smoke to break laser locks.

The Trophy system is similar to Arena but instead of using a small rocket it instead uses what is essentially a large shotgun to destroy incoming missiles.

As for testing and incorporating it, the Soviets put the Drozd on a few T-55s in Afghanistan and it had interesting results.  The problem with Drozd was that it was rather expensive and only protected a 60 degree arc around the front of the turret.  It proved to be about 80% successful at stopping RPGs but unlike Arena, Trophy, or any other modern active protection system it didnt use a small rocket or shotgun type device but instead fired a 107 mm projectile at the incoming round which caused a lot of collateral damage to anything near the tank.  The Soviet army abandoned Drozd but the Soviet Naval Infantry adopted it and they installed it on about 250 T-55s and a couple T-62s.

Shtora is pretty standard equipment on modern Russian tanks but doesnt work at all against unguided missile systems as they got nothing to jam, the armor losses in Chechnya while using Shtora is what caused the Russians to develop Arena.

Arena seems to be deployed on Russian armor but the cost of $300,000 per unit has seemed to of limited just how many units actually have them installed. According to Russia Arena increases odds of surviving a rocket attack by a factor of 1.5 to 2. 

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