Why not prove it?

[papageorge1]

3 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

And the conveniences pile up.  It does clear up that your standard of 'evidence' is quite a bit different from mine.

What's too bad is, I think again, you talk around the subject and at a meta-level vaguely about 'the evidence' far more on this board at least than you do explaining why the evidence is so good.  It'd be cool if you could say, 'hey, there's a new study showing some evidence for paranormal thing x, let's check it out and see what we think' or 'there's a video of a phenomenon that can't be explained', but there doesn't seem to be much new (no, I don't count the existence of the various 'ghost hunter' tv shows as new evidence, unless it produced something compelling I'm unaware of).  I'd say that suggests the evidence is just too 'spontaneous' and rare right now to be thinking there's much to it.

You're of course just making stuff up with the 'biased by materialism' nonsense, why wouldn't someone want this stuff to be true?  It'd be cool if there were ghosts and special people with powers and such, it'd be fascinating (I'm sure you'd agree, I think it has a lot to do with your particular perspective on the evidence actually).  I used to be fascinated, and scared, of Bigfoot, and Nessie and such.  The possibility of UFOs and hauntings and demons and psychic stuff.  Then you eventually check it out and, I'm sorry, but it is fair to describe looking at what actually supports any of these things even existing as 'disappointing'.  The evidence we could have; unknown DNA with primate-like similarities, videos with audio of haunting phenomenon, a series of accurate predictions, etc.. it's just undeniable how weak what there is in comparison to what could and I think should be by now.

It's not that this stuff is just not amenable to controlled testing it's that there isn't anything that we even know requires an explanation beyond 'people are wrong about things sometimes', which we've got lots of evidence for. There is no big gigantic event or phenomenon that we know has ever occurred which make us suspect the paranormal; if you think there is one, feel free to name it.  Since we know people are wrong about things then paranormal beliefs and experiences misunderstood as such is exactly what I would expect.  Since it's just a misunderstanding, that fits perfectly with 'can't be tested in a controlled way' and 'spontaneous (like when no one is recording anything...)'; yes, things that don't exist can't be tested in a controlled way.  Some people would clearly like there to be something magical and super-mysterious about the world and would especially like a sign of something/anything after death, and we know if people want to believe something enough they can tend to not be unbiased about what they experience and remember (and in a lot of those cases there's nothing wrong with that, I know I do it).  That's just the way it is right now, maybe we will get some real evidence of this stuff, or somebody who can actually do something eventually. I'll bet as soon as you do you'll see how incorrect you are about the materialistic bias of scientists, even if that bias did exist it's no match for the possibility of fame.

Well I've given all this consideration for decades and my opinion is that controlled studies have proven psychic abilities. The quantity, quality and consistency of the mountains of anecdotal evidence has me convinced beyond reasonable doubt that spontaneous paranormal events do occur.

I have heard no reasons since forming those opinions to change. In fact it is not even a matter of doubt anymore. The really interesting questions  for me now are what does this tell us about reality and how should we live our lives.

[+joc]

18 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Well I've given all this consideration for decades and my opinion is that controlled studies have proven psychic abilities. The quantity, quality and consistency of the mountains of anecdotal evidence has me convinced beyond reasonable doubt that spontaneous paranormal events do occur.

I have heard no reasons since forming those opinions to change. In fact it is not even a matter of doubt anymore. The really interesting questions  for me now are what does this tell us about reality and how should we live our lives.

So what your saying is that it is  your 'opinion' that paranormal events do occur.  And that ...It is your 'opinion' that controlled studies have proven psychic abilities.  Does your 'opinion' have a mathematical equation to go along with it?  

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Notice in all that you avoided the question posed: Who is the official 'certifier' whose judgment everyone will accept?

If I say the evidence is clear and convincing and you say it's not, how do we settle that? That was the gist of my question. We would just  disagree.

Debates on this stuff have been done a hundred times on here. Why repeat ourselves?

The official certifier is result. All claims are held to a standard. 

Predictability 

Repeatability upon demand. 

We can predict the yet to be found pieces of things like the standard model hence the Higgs Boson. We can repeat experiments. We can record results. 

That's what changes the situation. 

Not anecdotes. Not a biased statisticians opinion. You are scraping up dregs to support your crusade, but they aren't doing the job. There's a good reason that the minority see your posting as utter nonsense. 

There's no hole in physics or prediction that indicates the supernatural and paranormal should exist. Physics predicts decay through entropy. Everything dies eventually. Even black holes. What we do have is a courful history replete with varying creationist themes by individuals grasping at attempts to understand the universe. Man's imagination is clearly the common denominator with regards to supernatural and paranormal themes. 

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I actually respect science but understand its current limitations.

No you don't and do not. You make that quite clear with the above sentence. 

the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

"the world of science and technology"

There are limits of observation. Even your unsupported zealous view claims to include observation. As such modern science is a more than valid tool for determining conclusions. You just don't accept what they are, and as you said, one cannot control another's acceptance. You have shown that logic, reason common sense and proof are also irrelevant where deliberate ignorance is preffered. 

[papageorge1]

11 minutes ago, joc said:

So what your saying is that it is  your 'opinion' that paranormal events do occur.  And that ...It is your 'opinion' that controlled studies have proven psychic abilities.  Does your 'opinion' have a mathematical equation to go along with it?  

They’re both by now at 99+%

[+joc]

8 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

They’re both by now at 99+%

uh...I'm talking about an actual mathematical equation...like the one's Einstein used in his 'opinions'.

Like this: 

Edited October 22, 2019 by joc

[Habitat]

2 hours ago, Aquila King said:

I'd say all the advancements of modern society have proven the merits of the scientific method. What's your point? 

Technical advancements are not necessarily social advancement. There is nothing new-fangled about science, it is simply a reflection of one aspect, albeit a vital one, of the suite of perceptive faculties.

[Habitat]

2 hours ago, Aquila King said:

It's not "arrogant" to ask for proof before believing in something. That's perfectly rational dude. If I told you this magic bean that I'm selling for a $1000 bucks would give you the powers of Superman, you wouldn't be arrogant to demand proof. You'd just be a sane human being.

It is certainly arrogant to demand proof when you know it can't be given, and no-one is demanding anything from you. 

[+joc]

sniff sniff   ...dimly aware of a certain unease in the air....

...wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...

[Habitat]

2 hours ago, Aquila King said:

I've said many times that if there's something "spiritual" out there (or whatever you wanna call it), then it must operate by some sort of preset laws and by some sort of logic. Claiming something to be "supernatural" upends the entire field of science as a whole.

Once you accept that all natural laws can be completely ignored and superseded at any point by anything for whatever reason, then you might as well just give up on trying to make sense of the universe through science entirely, since nothing you study could ever be predictably constant and nothing woukd ever be perfectly reliable. Might as well just go back to the stone age.

That's just you advertising the limitations you want to impose on reality.

[psyche101]

11 minutes ago, joc said:

sniff sniff   ...dimly aware of a certain unease in the air....

...wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...

The 37%.....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2864142/amp

[Gwynbleidd]

snip

Edited October 22, 2019 by Gwynbleidd
wrong thread

[papageorge1]

2 hours ago, joc said:

uh...I'm talking about an actual mathematical equation...like the one's Einstein used in his 'opinions'.

Like this: 

Ya, no.

And to mention reality acted to the above equation even before the equation was defined. Get my point?

And Higgs Boson existed before Higgs Boson was ever discovered or even imagined by science. And even before there was 'science'.

Edited October 22, 2019 by papageorge1

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

The official certifier is result. All claims are held to a standard. 

Predictability 

Repeatability upon demand. 

We can predict the yet to be found pieces of things like the standard model hence the Higgs Boson. We can repeat experiments. We can record results. 

That's what changes the situation. 

Not anecdotes. Not a biased statisticians opinion. You are scraping up dregs to support your crusade, but they aren't doing the job. There's a good reason that the minority see your posting as utter nonsense. 

There's no hole in physics or prediction that indicates the supernatural and paranormal should exist. Physics predicts decay through entropy. Everything dies eventually. Even black holes. What we do have is a courful history replete with varying creationist themes by individuals grasping at attempts to understand the universe. Man's imagination is clearly the common denominator with regards to supernatural and paranormal themes. 

Current science doesn't know everything by its own admission. In fact the overwhelming majority of matter is not detectable yet by science (so-called dark matter). 

Observation of the paranormal and psychic can precede its understanding by science. That is where we are at. I predict  the key to future scientific understanding of the paranormal will come from consideration of extra-dimensions beyond our familiar three-dimensional reality.

 

[psyche101]

27 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Current science doesn't know everything by its own admission.

Nobody said it does. What you don't get is what we do know is not wrong. 

Quote

In fact the overwhelming majority of matter is not detectable yet by science (so-called dark matter). 

Not detectable huh? 

How is it even you can tell me about dark matter then? 

Quote

Observation of the paranormal and psychic can precede its understanding by science. That is where we are at.

No its not. No superstition or so called paranormal event has ever been confirmed, had it been then this discussion would not be happening. 

Quote

I predict  the key to future scientific understanding of the paranormal will come from consideration of extra-dimensions beyond our familiar three-dimensional reality.

Don't care about your crystal ball or stupidmeter or 'feelings'. 

What actually connects the paranormal and or supernatural with extra directions at a subatomic scale? Where is the connection? What validates the suggestion? 

Edited October 22, 2019 by psyche101

[ChrLzs]

4 hours ago, OverSword said:

How many videos of a ghost have been posted on UM?  People have posted links to articles which include videos, photo's, eyewitness accounts.  That not evidence?

Say what?  Are you on a different planet, or from another conversation altogether?

A photo is evidence that someone printed what appears to be a photo.  Photos and videos are easy to fake and easy to misinterpret, and are missing 3 dimensional information.  Eyewitness accounts are demonstrably unreliable and may in fact be complete deliberate falsehoods thru to misinterpretations and false memories, and they are especially weak if the accounts are collected after the event has been publicised.

So, as we always ask, why not simply post a really good example where all the 'evidence' actually points to a non-terrestrial, paranormal being, and let's see how all those videos/photos/accounts:

- correlate
- are actually 'evidentiary'
- point only at your desired conclusion

 

I'll wait.  But start with your very best example.  Good luck with that.

Edited October 22, 2019 by ChrLzs

[papageorge1]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

Nobody said it does. What you don't get is what we do know is not wrong. 

I agree with that. I am not saying anything science knows is wrong. I am saying it doesn't know yet what it doesn't know.

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Not detectable huh? 

How is it even you can tell me about dark matter then? 

Because science indirectly determines it must exist without being able to directly detect it. That's mainstream science belief today.

6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

 

No its not. No superstition or so called paranormal event has ever been confirmed, has it been then this discussion would not be happening. 

 

How do you confirm something for which no detection devices exist yet? How would you have confirmed the Higgs Boson 50 years ago? The Higgs Boson existed anyway 50 years ago.

10 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

 

Don't care about your crystal ball or stupidmeter or 'feelings'. 

What actually connects the paranormal and or supernatural with extra directions at a subatomic scale? Where is the connection? What validates the suggestion? 

Nobody knows yet but probably at the quantum level.

[Free99]

It's BS

[Tatetopa]

24 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Nobody knows yet but probably at the quantum level.

papa, that is kind of a cop out. 

We search the house and find nothing.

Maybe it is in the basement

We search the basement find nothing.

Maybe it is in the attic

We search the attic and find nothing

We maybe there is a secret closet in a secret room.  

Maybe so papa but so far, we find nothing when we search.  As we become capable of searching further, we still find nothing and keep pushing this "maybe" out into other dimensions or quantum mechanics.

Maybe it is in a parallel bubble universe that does not intersect ore react with our own.  Maybe, but so what?  How we live our lives is determined by the world we do react with every day.  We don't need ghosts to tell us to be kind or monsters to tell us to be brave.

[Aquila King]

2 hours ago, Habitat said:

Technical advancements are not necessarily social advancement. There is nothing new-fangled about science, it is simply a reflection of one aspect, albeit a vital one, of the suite of perceptive faculties.

My point was that the scientific method has proven itself to be a perfectly viable method of discovering truths about our reality. I'm not one to argue it to be the only method, just a very well established one.

2 hours ago, Habitat said:

It is certainly arrogant to demand proof when you know it can't be given, and no-one is demanding anything from you. 

So tell me this with full and complete honesty here: If I so were to tell you that I secretly have the powers of a god, but couldn't prove it for whatever reason, would you just believe what I have to tell you automatically without any proof? Would you seriously consider a demand for me to prove my godlike powers to people in order for them to believe it to be arrogant of people?

2 hours ago, Habitat said:

That's just you advertising the limitations you want to impose on reality.

That's actually just me believing based on literally everything I've ever come to know about the universe I live in since my birth that this world has at least some sort of logical rational cohesion to it, whether I personally understand everything about it or not.

[Aquila King]

3 hours ago, joc said:

uh...I'm talking about an actual mathematical equation...like the one's Einstein used in his 'opinions'.

Like this: 

Whoa there!! Watch it man, you're giving me war flashbacks of math class... 

[freetoroam]

5 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Isn't that kind of what I said?

No, you have read it the wrong wsy. 

I am not saying it is proven by the claimant. 

I am saying science does not need to get involved with everything to prove it to the rest of us. The claimant needs to do the proving. Which they can not do.

 

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

papa, that is kind of a cop out. 

We search the house and find nothing.

Maybe it is in the basement

We search the basement find nothing.

Maybe it is in the attic

We search the attic and find nothing

We maybe there is a secret closet in a secret room.  

Maybe so papa but so far, we find nothing when we search.  As we become capable of searching further, we still find nothing and keep pushing this "maybe" out into other dimensions or quantum mechanics.

 

It is not a cop out. How would science have found the Higgs Boson 50 years ago. Nay, how would science have even envisioned a Higgs Boson 200 years ago? I think it is fine that science moves slowly and carefully.

The practical evidence tells me the paranormal exists whether science today can explain or even envision it yet or not. Observation of the paranormal can precede its understanding. 

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Maybe it is in a parallel bubble universe that does not intersect ore react with our own.  Maybe, but so what?  How we live our lives is determined by the world we do react with every day.  We don't need ghosts to tell us to be kind or monsters to tell us to be brave.

I suspect the paranormal involves additional dimensions beyond our familiar three. 

And I believe the human psychic senses and transcendental experiences can tell us about reality in ways science yet can not including the purpose of life and how one ought to live.

[papageorge1]

2 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

No, you have read it the wrong wsy. 

I am not saying it is proven by the claimant. 

I am saying science does not need to get involved with everything to prove it to the rest of us. The claimant needs to do the proving. Which they can not do.

 

It is up to each person to determine if current understanding is satisfactory to explain all the paranormal claimants. If one such as I conclude current understanding is insufficient to explain many paranormal claims then I just conclude 'science has things to learn'.

[freetoroam]

2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

It is up to each person to determine if current understanding is satisfactory to explain all the paranormal claimants. If one such as I conclude current understanding is insufficient to explain many paranormal claims then I just conclude 'science has things to learn'.

Lol. 

Those claiming the paranormal could do with learning themselves. Beliefs and hearsay are not proof. 

We have had many people on here claiming something strange,  logical explanations have been given,  but still they will not have it as they were not looking for the actual logical and in some instanstances pretty simple explanations,  they were looking for comfirmation it was paranormal. 

Never has their claim been proven by believers,  all they get from the believers is - science do not know,  sceptics do not feel it,  non believers do not understand. 

If someone hears a squeak at night the sceptic will give numerous reasons which can be proven,  the believer will say paranormal - throwing out the logical as it does not fit the belief. 

Science does not waste their time on answered questions to try to come up with another answer which would suit the claimant when there is no other answer apart from - belief.

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I agree with that. I am not saying anything science knows is wrong. I am saying it doesn't know yet what it doesn't know.

Things like life after death and creation are shown to be refuted by known physics. That's not stuff not yet know, that's stuff known I'm talking about. You ignore that altogether. 

Quote

Because science indirectly determines it must exist without being able to directly detect it. That's mainstream science belief today.

Exactly. We don't have to directly detect such forces or particles. They reveal themselves. What reveals QM is in any way associated with the paranormal or supernatural? 

Quote

How do you confirm something for which no detection devices exist yet? How would you have confirmed the Higgs Boson 50 years ago? The Higgs Boson existed anyway 50 years ago.

The way we did with the standard model. It was predicted to be where it was. There should be some indicator, some connection if QM is indeed connected with QM. 

Quote

Nobody knows yet but probably at the quantum level.

Why 'probably'? 

Probably indicates reason. How do sub atomic extra directions indicate that the paranormal and or supernatural are explained by it. What's the connection, where's the reasoning?