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Germany's "new Hitler" is on the rise


Eldorado

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1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

I really don't know, and that's a question that been debated since the end of WWII. However, in my opinion I beleive that most of the German population didn't beleive in the propaganda or In Hitler and the Nazi party. Maybe in the beginning many may have believed but before the 1930s ended I think that changed. People could see what Germany was becoming before the war started, and I don't think that the average German believed what was happening was good for Germany.

Yeah, thats the key question and I by myself searched for an answer for many many years. In my opinion, the majority supported the regime also after 1942, after the lost battle of Stalingrad, when the times got harder in Germany because of the massive attacks of the allies on German soil. Of course, the regime was repressive at a very high degree and had a perfect established infrastructure for denunciation of regime critics. But above all, to find an answer to the question, its important to know about the mindset of average Germans who were born in the late 19th/early 20th century. These people where born into a single leader system/monarchy so the personal development of average people was directed to serve and obey and to follow the leader without asking questions. Its the mindset, which made Hitler possible and he also perfected it by suppression/extinction of the intellectual elite, outside the Nazi management level.

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4 hours ago, Katzenking said:

            Finally!

Scientists discover german gene!

Very, very weak joke.

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8 minutes ago, toast said:

Yeah, thats the key question and I by myself searched for an answer for many many years. In my opinion, the majority supported the regime also after 1942, after the lost battle of Stalingrad, when the times got harder in Germany because of the massive attacks of the allies on German soil. Of course, the regime was repressive at a very high degree and had a perfect established infrastructure for denunciation of regime critics. But above all, to find an answer to the question, its important to know about the mindset of average Germans who were born in the late 19th/early 20th century. These people where born into a single leader system/monarchy so the personal development of average people was directed to serve and obey and to follow the leader without asking questions. Its the mindset, which made Hitler possible and he also perfected it by suppression/extinction of the intellectual elite, outside the Nazi management level.

That's a great break down of the mindset of the German people during that time. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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Just now, toast said:

Very, very weak joke.

I don't know where some of this crap comes from, but it's amazing how little people actually know about Germany in WWII. Some of the things people have said in this thread make me wonder how these people passed history in school. By listening to some of them it seams they don't even know what the war was about, simply amazing.

Take Care.

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54 minutes ago, Habitat said:

The SS would not even take recruits with dental fillings, in the early stages, but standards were steadily relaxed. I think I read somewhere that only around 10% of the originals, were still active at the end.

That could be true, and most of them were brought back to Berlin for the final battle, along with the Hitler Youth. The last photo of Hitler alive was taken in the garden of the Bunker, awarding Iron Crosses to Hitler Youth members.

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Old Herr Hitler certainly didn't spare the horses, he and his entourage turned out to be no friend of anyone. That's what you get when radical opportunists grab hold of the reins.

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People gaining power in traditional societies are populist nationalists.  It's happening mainly in Europe and partly in the US because of massive refugee migration.  The local populace is obviously objecting because they believe their white nationalist traditions are being infringed.  In truth, despite having a Liberal mindset, I don't totally disagree with their sentiment.  There has to be a level of control on immigration, both legal and illegal (mainly) and especially on people coming from war stricken hell holes. 

This German guy is no different from others such as Trump, Orban, Le Pen and Salvini and other European Right wing Parties who are riding the tide on defending 'Nationalist' sentiments against these 'invading' forces.  It's their moment, let them enjoy it until their political policies ruin their nations and the rest of the world as history repeats itself.

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8 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I don't know where some of this crap comes from, but it's amazing how little people actually know about Germany in WWII. Some of the things people have said in this thread make me wonder how these people passed history in school. By listening to some of them it seams they don't even know what the war was about, simply amazing.

Take Care.

It is amazing how many misconceptions there are regarding WWII. Most of them could be removed by a simple Google search. I dont know how many times I have seen people making claims such as the Germans having flying saucers and a secret base in the Antartic, Hitler having survived the war or the Germans having nuclear weapons.... then of course there are the Holocaust denier, but lets not go there.

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4 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

People gaining power in traditional societies are populist nationalists.  It's happening mainly in Europe and partly in the US because of massive refugee migration.  The local populace is obviously objecting because they believe their white nationalist traditions are being infringed.  In truth, despite having a Liberal mindset, I don't totally disagree with their sentiment.  There has to be a level of control on immigration, both legal and illegal (mainly) and especially on people coming from war stricken hell holes. 

This German guy is no different from others such as Trump, Orban, Le Pen and Salvini and other European Right wing Parties who are riding the tide on defending 'Nationalist' sentiments against these 'invading' forces.  It's their moment, let them enjoy it until their political policies ruin their nations and the rest of the world as history repeats itself.

It's not because of refugee migrations. Which are not as massive or impossible to deal with, as the neo-Nazi propaganda wants us to believe. 

You mentioned Orban - how many migrants are in Hungary? Around... say... zero?

Migrations are a problem, and certainly are to be regulated, and weaponized migrations should be seen as acts of war, which they are - but not by the unfortunate migrants, but by those who use them as method of destabilizing targeted countries and so on and on, but no, some people did not suddenly become panicky *******s, because they're objectively soon to be outnumbered by some alien, inherently incompatible genome.  

Some people were panicky *******s before they even heard of migrants. They were simply more focused on fearing and hating someone else before. They're prone to express their personal lack of confidence through aggressively intolerant political options. It doesn't even matter to them if they'll frothingly hate Jews, Muslims, blacks or bicyclists, migrants or neighbours. All that matters is the sense of their belonging to the group, which eases their constant anxiety, proven by sharing the hatred. Because sharing constructive goals is too demanding for them. 

 

However, I do agree that history repeats itself.

Stupid people with inferiority complex are ****ting all over everything again. Because greedy and only slightly less stupid people in positions that allow them to manipulate the stupid masses want more and they want it now, without thinking or caring what will tomorrow look like, as long as they can gorge on more money and power today. 

Stupidity is what we should fear and keep away from the positions of power.  

But stupid people want stupid leaders because it proves their stupidity is actually better than rational, intelligent approach. 

 

Ah. 

I felt like ranting for a while, sorry for finding your post to quote for that purpose :D 

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On 10/27/2019 at 12:11 PM, and then said:

Wait... so he's thought to be the second coming of evil incarnate because he objects to the mass influx of a population that will decimate traditional German culture?  Am I summing this up correctly?  THIS is his crime?  If he is attempting to incite widespread violence then I'd agree but that doesn't seem to be his goal.

I think it is that he is 50 years too late to the party.  The americans already changed the german culture.

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12 hours ago, toast said:

Very, very weak joke.

Too bad you don't like it.
I kept this on my computer for 4 years waiting for an opportunity to post it.
(it's from a Hamburg-based magazine btw.)

All this Nazi-crap has a lot of humour in it. When I heard those Hitler-speeches the first time as a teenager in the 70s, I couldn't stop laughing and even today I find it very funny.
There are all these claims, conspiracy theories, open racism, hate spreading, war mongering and pure evil without any limits on one side, and then you have all these fanatics and manipulated masses who (want to) believe all these nonsens on the other side.

These new Nazis are rather boring but there are again many who obviously like to be manipulated and vote for them and this is by far not only in Germany. Others are far ahead on this.

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2 minutes ago, Katzenking said:

Too bad you don't like it.
I kept this on my computer for 4 years waiting for an opportunity to post it.
(it's from a Hamburg-based magazine btw.)

All this Nazi-crap has a lot of humour in it. When I heard those Hitler-speeches the first time as a teenager in the 70s, I couldn't stop laughing and even today I find it very funny.
There are all these claims, conspiracy theories, open racism, hate spreading, war mongering and pure evil without any limits on one side, and then you have all these fanatics and manipulated masses who (want to) believe all these nonsens on the other side.

These new Nazis are rather boring but there are again many who obviously like to be manipulated and vote for them and this is by far not only in Germany. Others are far ahead on this.

It is a sick joke and very insulting but it did make me laugh.  I guess I am a bad person.  Trump is proof it is not only happening in Germany.  The KKK is still going strong too, which is the same kind of hate and ignorance.

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4 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

It is amazing how many misconceptions there are regarding WWII. Most of them could be removed by a simple Google search. I dont know how many times I have seen people making claims such as the Germans having flying saucers and a secret base in the Antartic, Hitler having survived the war or the Germans having nuclear weapons.... then of course there are the Holocaust denier, but lets not go there.

I agree you, it amazing. However, I think people have had these misconceptions for so long they just think that they are correct. But like you say a simple Google search would fix the entire problem.

Take care

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2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

It is a sick joke and very insulting but it did make me laugh.  I guess I am a bad person.  Trump is proof it is not only happening in Germany.  The KKK is still going strong too, which is the same kind of hate and ignorance.

You are surely not a bad person and I didn't mean the US in the first place.
Yes I heard about KKK and white-supremacy groups but think that this is only a tiny minority, or is it not?

Ridicule and mocking are the best weapons to fight extremists, especially right-wing extremists. Alone that they want to be Nazis makes them wide open to attack. You cannot convince them with arguments and debates.

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Hi all.  I've read through these posts and noticed trends which are uncharacteristic of the generally intellectual tone of this site.  It's an emotive topic and one that polarises people's views, which all-too-often leads to hasty, ill-judged words or statements.  

For a thread that clearly focuses on the evils of racism there is an awful lot of stereotyping of the German people.  Repeated references to sauerkraut, lederhosen, goose-stepping, no culture, compliance, beer-guzzling, daleks, etc. paint a image in our minds that can only ever represent a tiny fraction of the population.  Are all Americans cowboys? drug-dealers? sex-mad?  If you focus on one particular representation of a nation it's easy to forget about the huge variety of peoples, cultures and styles found in even small areas, let alone entire countries.

The "German gene" cartoon is one particularly galling example of this.  Perhaps if it had been called the "Nazi gene" it might be viewed as amusing and apropos.  Instead it implies that every German carries a swastika-shaped gene, therefore every German is a Nazi.  I wonder how German Jews, German Poles, American Germans, etc. would react to this 'joke'?

I have visited Germany on just four occasions.  I do not speak the language well enough to interact with the public at large, but it was though-provoking simply to have been there and know that those over a certain age lived through WW2, its build-up and its aftermath.  It is impossible to tell who was an avid supporter of the Nazi Party from those who opposed it.  How many ordinary Germans found themselves trapped in a totalitarian regime, and struggled through the years and decades simply trying to keep out of trouble?  Placed in that situation how would you have acted? 

The same reasoning must also apply to contemporary citizens of Italy and the USSR, and anyone living under any undemocratic system then, prior or since.  Before you condemn a whole population as collaborators or cowards please consider how you would have behaved?  What risks to yourself or your family would you have taken?  I suspect the brutally honest answer from most of us would be – very few, or none.

The next unhealthy trend I see appears within the globally-important discussion about migration.  Migration exists, and the scale is growing.  People who live in war zones or abject poverty seek a better life elsewhere.  I imagine I would try the same.  Do nations have an obligation to provide assistance, or a right to put up barriers?  Are migrants entitled to identical rights as indigenous citizens, reduced rights reflecting their recent arrival, or enhanced rights reflecting their poorer circumstances?  These are just a few of the issues that deserve to be discussed intelligently, without one side or the other reducing the argument to insults or labels.

Then there are a lot of incorrect or incomplete statements that could be rectified before posting with a small amount of research.  There is a lack of understanding about fascism, Nazism, Nazi policies & how these evolved, the extent to which the Nazi leaders ever intended to impose those policies, the methods they used to gain support, the amount of support they enjoyed, the weaknesses of the Weimar Republic, facts about the War; in short – most comments could be improved by including and checking more details.

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15 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It's not because of refugee migrations. Which are not as massive or impossible to deal with, as the neo-Nazi propaganda wants us to believe. 

You mentioned Orban - how many migrants are in Hungary? Around... say... zero?

Migrations are a problem, and certainly are to be regulated, and weaponized migrations should be seen as acts of war, which they are - but not by the unfortunate migrants, but by those who use them as method of destabilizing targeted countries and so on and on, but no, some people did not suddenly become panicky *******s, because they're objectively soon to be outnumbered by some alien, inherently incompatible genome.  

Some people were panicky *******s before they even heard of migrants. They were simply more focused on fearing and hating someone else before. They're prone to express their personal lack of confidence through aggressively intolerant political options. It doesn't even matter to them if they'll frothingly hate Jews, Muslims, blacks or bicyclists, migrants or neighbours. All that matters is the sense of their belonging to the group, which eases their constant anxiety, proven by sharing the hatred. Because sharing constructive goals is too demanding for them.

 

 

What you're expressing/summarising here is the successful right wing propaganda machine and how it has been effective in converting people, which was the essence of my point really although I probably didn't make it clear enough and just jumped to the main conclusion of whats happening without providing the background of how it happened. The fact that Orban (and Austria, and Poland...) isn't invaded is probably because he's put barriers to stop the flood gates like we saw a few years back.  This gave him and the likes the necessary boost to support their anti immigration/refugee propaganda.

Yes indeed, immigration needs to be regulated and unfortunately the Left lost a lot of power because they tried to be too Liberal with people that don't understand the concept of a Liberal society or wanted to enter Europe for other purposes.

15 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

However, I do agree that history repeats itself.

Stupid people with inferiority complex are ****ting all over everything again. Because greedy and only slightly less stupid people in positions that allow them to manipulate the stupid masses want more and they want it now, without thinking or caring what will tomorrow look like, as long as they can gorge on more money and power today. 

Stupidity is what we should fear and keep away from the positions of power.  

But stupid people want stupid leaders because it proves their stupidity is actually better than rational, intelligent approach. 

 

Ah. 

I felt like ranting for a while, sorry for finding your post to quote for that purpose :D 

People aren't stupid but susceptible and the media is a powerful tool in strong hands.  Don't believe for one second these leaders are stupid.  Deceitful, cunning, liars and inefficient for sure, but stupid?  Not sure, they know what they're doing.

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11 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

The next unhealthy trend I see appears within the globally-important discussion about migration.  Migration exists, and the scale is growing.  People who live in war zones or abject poverty seek a better life elsewhere.  I imagine I would try the same.  Do nations have an obligation to provide assistance, or a right to put up barriers?  Are migrants entitled to identical rights as indigenous citizens, reduced rights reflecting their recent arrival, or enhanced rights reflecting their poorer circumstances?  These are just a few of the issues that deserve to be discussed intelligently, without one side or the other reducing the argument to insults or labels.

 

OK, so what's your intelligent opinion on some of these questions you yourself have raised?

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16 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think it is that he is 50 years too late to the party.  The americans already changed the german culture.

I think not, other than by speeding up the return of prosperity after the war, and as time has shown, prosperity is the best guarantor of a stable society. Extremism only takes hold in times of socio-economic collapse. It might be a disconcerting thought, but in all societies and at all times, there are fringe radical elements, like germs at the back of your throat, waiting for an opportunity afforded by circumstances. 

Edited by Habitat
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16 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think it is that he is 50 years too late to the party.  The americans already changed the german culture.

When was the last time you were in Germany. Trust me the German Culture is intact and flourishing, all the Americans did was cause a speedy economic recovery for West Germany starting at the end of WWII. By the time President Kennedy made his famous Ich Bin Ein Berliner speech in 1963, Germany's economy was in full swing.

My Mother and Father immigrated to the United States from Germany in the 1950s, I was born in the US. But please tell me how the Americans changed the German Culture. Seriously I don't understand what your talking about.

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On 10/29/2019 at 4:57 AM, and then said:

The kind that believed in freedom, democracy and equal rights?  Or are you so up the hindquarters of Islamic fundamentalism that you think they have better values than that?

That's a funny reply to toasts comments, I suspect he may know a little more than most of us about German Culture since he was born, raised, lives there, and is a German Citizen. :D

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3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

When was the last time you were in Germany. Trust me the German Culture is intact and flourishing, all the Americans did was cause a speedy economic recovery for West Germany starting at the end of WWII. By the time President Kennedy made his famous Ich Bin Ein Berliner speech in 1963, Germany's economy was in full swing.

My Mother and Father immigrated to the United States from Germany in the 1950s, I was born in the US. But please tell me how the Americans changed the German Culture. Seriously I don't understand what your talking about.

I was in germany in the 70's and at that time the most popular music was U.S. country music.  The teenagers were wearing jeans (albeit the girls wore them with high heels like the U.S. teenagers in the 50's).  At that time I saw a lot of U.S. and British influence in their culture.  Coca Cola, snicker bars, movies, attitudes.  Yes, a lot of their culture is in tact but there has been influence from those that occupy their country because of WW2 as well.

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1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

I was in germany in the 70's and at that time the most popular music was U.S. country music.  The teenagers were wearing jeans (albeit the girls wore them with high heels like the U.S. teenagers in the 50's).  At that time I saw a lot of U.S. and British influence in their culture.  Coca Cola, snicker bars, movies, attitudes.  Yes, a lot of their culture is in tact but there has been influence from those that occupy their country because of WW2 as well.

I still have the problem to understand what exactly "German culture and/or "American culture" should mean especially connected with the claim and/or opinion Germany`s todays culture to be influenced by American culture. You may right if its about the 50s/60s but thats a long time ago. The only things in my live which connect me (and the most of us Germans) to the US somehow are Lewis jeans, Microsoft, computers, some musicians/bands, this board and my general interest for international politics and exchange. I dont eat Hamburger, I dont listen to US country music (never!) and I dont drive a pickup truck and I dont drive a Harley diverted agricultural machine motor bike. Above all, a countries culture is defined by much more topics than by music and products.

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38 minutes ago, toast said:

I still have the problem to understand what exactly "German culture and/or "American culture" should mean especially connected with the claim and/or opinion Germany`s todays culture to be influenced by American culture. You may right if its about the 50s/60s but thats a long time ago. The only things in my live which connect me (and the most of us Germans) to the US somehow are Lewis jeans, Microsoft, computers, some musicians/bands, this board and my general interest for international politics and exchange. I dont eat Hamburger, I dont listen to US country music (never!) and I dont drive a pickup truck and I dont drive a Harley diverted agricultural machine motor bike. Above all, a countries culture is defined by much more topics than by music and products.

I agree, but I was not commenting so much on German culture as the quote in the OP "“There is nothing wrong with expressing our democratic opinion. We want Germany to remain German,” he tells his supporters, to ecstatic cheers. Then in another post @and then made a comment about loosing their culture.  I was responding to him, not the OP or germans in particular.  Björn Höcke seems to be inciting the same kind of anger and division as Trump is. It is interesting that this kind of thing is going on in many 1st world democratic countries. Maybe democracy is being attacked.

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4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I agree, but I was not commenting so much on German culture as the quote in the OP "“There is nothing wrong with expressing our democratic opinion. We want Germany to remain German,” he tells his supporters, to ecstatic cheers. Then in another post @and then made a comment about loosing their culture.  I was responding to him, not the OP or germans in particular.  Björn Höcke seems to be inciting the same kind of anger and division as Trump is. It is interesting that this kind of thing is going on in many 1st world democratic countries. Maybe democracy is being attacked.

When a man says I want a Germany for the German people and he is labelled a Nazi for it then there are serious problems going on.

It shows just how manipulative opposition politicians are in their underhand attempts to close down Democracy.

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17 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

When a man says I want a Germany for the German people and he is labelled a Nazi for it then there are serious problems going on.

It shows just how manipulative opposition politicians are in their underhand attempts to close down Democracy.

Exactly, like Trump and others, it is purposeful division and emotional manipulation.

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