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Jesus is king


ellapenella

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2 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Both the cities of Sodom and Gomorahh were full of perverts. 

Including Lot.

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6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Or, doesnt understand his audience, I suppose. I see your point.

How can an omnipotent god not understand his audience ?

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13 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Both the cities of Sodom and Gomorahh were full of perverts. 

So its justified to kill everyone but Lots family, including the children ?

I guess killing Lots wife for looking back at her home is justified too ?

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The story of Sodom and Gomorah is synonomous with the story of Belial in Judges 19. I think you are exaggerating the claims about the stupidity. They are both a horror story. In my opinion Judges 19 is one of the scariest stories in the Bible.

They both involve rape. The idea of the stories is that someone has gone into the wrong city at the wrong time. A group of men go up to the house of someone who lives in the city and demand they give the man they are giving homage to to come out for sodomy, hence the reference Sodom. The man knows this is bad and says, "No, no don't take this man, but just take my daughter instead." I guess that is just how he weighs the lesser of two evils. 

In the Genesis story an angel intervenes and casts the men blind and Lot escapes with his wife and daughters. The angel gives them instructions of where to go and not to look back. They have a problem following these instructions, Lot's wife looks back and turns to a pillar of salt and Lot can't make it to the destination so the angel directs him elsewhere. His daughters fear there will be no male heirs to their line since their mother has died, so they get their father drunk and sleep with him while he is blacked out to progeniate their line.

The story in Judges is similar, but no angel intervenes and the unspeakable happens. After it is over a war in Israel happens to revenge the misdeed. The proverb is that, "Nothing in Israel has happened like this before, so take advice and speak your minds." The aggressors who do the deed are known as the children of Belial. It happens in the territory of Benjamin, and the tribe of Benjamin refuses to take revenge against Belial because they let them live in their territory, so the other 10 tribes of Israel fjght against the one tribe of Benjamin to correct the crime. Benjamin stands against them for awhile, but inevitably lose.

The Genesis story happened before Israel was formed or even born, hence the statement in Judges that nothing has happened like such in Israel before. I think the moral of the story is how to prevent the situation. It's an example of what can happen when society itself goes corrupt and into perversion. We're probably no stranger to similar situations today, especially in the Middle East and elsewhere where the law has failed.

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36 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

How can an omnipotent god not understand his audience ?

Perhaps if He's not omnipotent?

How can creatures like us be flawed... sinful... If we are created in God's own image?

Interesting things to think on. :innocent:

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34 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

So its justified to kill everyone but Lots family, including the children ?

I guess killing Lots wife for looking back at her home is justified too ?

Originally they were to die too. But, God let slip in a convo with Abraham that he was going to destroy those cities, and Abraham begged Him not to. God eventually figured out Abraham wanted to save his Nephew Lot, whom he'd traveled extensively with, because he still loved him. It was Lot who tried to save his wife and kids, but they were locals like the rest, and not good. God only agreed to save Lot, AFAIK.

If I remember right God had sent many prophesies and messengers, to the cities and the people there told Him to F-off. Not sure that's a justification, but they were repeatedly warned.

If some people were warned repeatedly to close down their crack house, but didnt, would you be surprised when everyone in the house died in a shootout with the police?

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17 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

The story of Sodom and Gomorah is synonomous with the story of Belial in Judges 19. I think you are exaggerating the claims about the stupidity. They are both a horror story. In my opinion Judges 19 is one of the scariest stories in the Bible.

They both involve rape. The idea of the stories is that someone has gone into the wrong city at the wrong time. A group of men go up to the house of someone who lives in the city and demand they give the man they are giving homage to to come out for sodomy, hence the reference Sodom. The man knows this is bad and says, "No, no don't take this man, but just take my daughter instead." I guess that is just how he weighs the lesser of two evils. 

In the Genesis story an angel intervenes and casts the men blind and Lot escapes with his wife and daughters. The angel gives them instructions of where to go and not to look back. They have a problem following these instructions, Lot's wife looks back and turns to a pillar of salt and Lot can't make it to the destination so the angel directs him elsewhere. His daughters fear there will be no male heirs to their line since their mother has died, so they get their father drunk and sleep with him while he is blacked out to progeniate their line.

The story in Judges is similar, but no angel intervenes and the unspeakable happens. After it is over a war in Israel happens to revenge the misdeed. The proverb is that, "Nothing in Israel has happened like this before, so take advice and speak your minds." The aggressors who do the deed are known as the children of Belial. It happens in the territory of Benjamin, and the tribe of Benjamin refuses to take revenge against Belial because they let them live in their territory, so the other 10 tribes of Israel fjght against the one tribe of Benjamin to correct the crime. Benjamin stands against them for awhile, but inevitably lose.

The Genesis story happened before Israel was formed or even born, hence the statement in Judges that nothing has happened like such in Israel before. I think the moral of the story is how to prevent the situation. It's an example of what can happen when society itself goes corrupt and into perversion. We're probably no stranger to similar situations today, especially in the Middle East and elsewhere where the law has failed.

I read that these stories were created so that the Israelites could have some "historical" reason for their Mosiac/Levitical laws. Bad people (even "righteous" Jewish Patriarchs) get punished when they break Gods Laws.

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23 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Originally they were to die too. But, God let slip in a convo with Abraham that he was going to destroy those cities, and Abraham begged Him not to. God eventually figured out Abraham wanted to save his Nephew Lot, whom he'd traveled extensively with, because he still loved him. It was Lot who tried to save his wife and kids, but they were locals like the rest, and not good. God only agreed to save Lot, AFAIK.

If I remember right God had sent many prophesies and messengers, to the cities and the people there told Him to F-off. Not sure that's a justification, but they were repeatedly warned.

If some people were warned repeatedly to close down their crack house, but didnt, would you be surprised when everyone in the house died in a shootout with the police?

But we are not talking about shootout, we are talking about razing the entire town where the crackhouse is and killing everyone in the town too. Would you think it was justified if your family was killed just because they lived in the same town as the crack house ?

This is a massive overreaction by god and its not only time he does that either.

Eve eats the forbidden fruit, lets have all women suffer for what she did. Some people are wicked, lets flood the entire world and thus kill all the people and the animals too, except a small group. Pharao won't let his people go, lets pile on the plagues for the entire Egyptian people. His special people need a place to live, lets kill everone who happens to allready live there. His son is comming back to save everyone who deserves it, but lets have people suffer through the tribulations first. God is love isn't he ? :whistle:

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43 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

If I remember right God had sent many prophesies and messengers,

Oh, well then, THAT is entirely different! Of course the destruction of the entire city is justified! 

To use your own ( flawed ) analogy, if law enforcement sent notices to the crack house, then when it doesn't shut down, the Police are totally justified on leveling an entire city block, killing everyone around, because, well, they sent notices....

:no:

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18 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

But we are not talking about shootout, we are talking about razing the entire town where the crackhouse is and killing everyone in the town too. Would you think it was justified if your family was killed just because they lived in the same town as the crack house ?

The town WAS the crack house. Abraham's asks would God spare the towns, of thousands, if 50 goid people lived there, and He said he would. Abraham goes on with lower and lower numbers till getting to 10. And God said, OK... but 10 good people could NOT be found. There were no "innocents" living there. Even the children, we could presume, were evil.

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This is a massive overreaction by god and its not only time he does that either.

Eve eats the forbidden fruit, lets have all women suffer for what she did. Some people are wicked, lets flood the entire world and thus kill all the people and the animals too, except a small group. Pharao won't let his people go, lets pile on the plagues for the entire Egyptian people. His special people need a place to live, lets kill everone who happens to allready live there. His son is comming back to save everyone who deserves it, but lets have people suffer through the tribulations first. God is love isn't he ? 

So the answer is what?

Let's get rid of ICE and the Police and the FBI? After all they're oppressing people. Why cant we just let the drug dealers and robbers and rapists and murderers, live their best lives?

If you read about the Isrealites coming to their promised land... They came first in peace and went around the existing nations looking for a home, but the existing nations rose up and preemptively attacked them. At which point it was war, and they claimed the won lands. At least that's the story.

Are you saying people looking to move into an area SHOULD just move along if the neighbors dont like them, and if the neighbors attack you, you should just let them kill you?

In the story of the Flood, everyone was wicked. Only Noah... was found to still be a good man. God originally didnt even want his family to go, as they too were corrupted to some degree.

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16 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Oh, well then, THAT is entirely different! Of course the destruction of the entire city is justified! 

To use your own ( flawed ) analogy, if law enforcement sent notices to the crack house, then when it doesn't shut down, the Police are totally justified on leveling an entire city block, killing everyone around, because, well, they sent notices....

:no:

The crack house WAS the city. The other surrounding cities, which were not as bad, did not get destroyed. Lot was heading toward one of them at the end of the story.

Going off the story there were zero innocents here, only crack dealers.

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5 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

The crack house WAS the city. The other surrounding cities, which were not as bad, did not get destroyed. Lot was heading toward one of them at the end of the story.

Going off the story there were zero innocents here, only crack dealers.

Question: If Lot was such a 'good guy", why didn't HE take notice of all the messages and prophecies and get out of Dodge, before god had to send a couple of personal agents?

If he had, then his wife would be safe, he wouldn't have had to pimp out his daughters, and he wouldn't have been molested by them either.

Oh, but then there wouldn't have been a story hook for the explanation of the destruction of two cities, and we would have no lesson on how good and moral the Hebrew god is.

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@DieChecker I have to ask you are very simple yes or no question: Do you believe that gods destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah really happened ?

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4 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

@DieChecker I have to ask you are very simple yes or no question: Do you believe that gods destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah really happened ?

No. It is just a morality story. To illustrate any if several points a teacher may want to make using it.

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5 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Question: If Lot was such a 'good guy", why didn't HE take notice of all the messages and prophecies and get out of Dodge, before god had to send a couple of personal agents?

If he had, then his wife would be safe, he wouldn't have had to pimp out his daughters, and he wouldn't have been molested by them either.

Oh, but then there wouldn't have been a story hook for the explanation of the destruction of two cities, and we would have no lesson on how good and moral the Hebrew god is.

I didnt say Lot was a good guy. He obviously married a local, and had daughters that were raised in the "all bad" culture. How good could he have been? And like you said he tried to pimp his daughters. 

The only thing Lot had going for him was that his uncle was friends with God. And his uncle, Abraham, still cared for him. That is the only reason angels showed up to rescue him before everything was made into a smoking crater.

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14 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

No. It is just a morality story. To illustrate any if several points a teacher may want to make using it.

If you don't believe its a true story I don't get why you spend so much time and effort into trying to justify it ? That makes no sense to me.

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3 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I didnt say Lot was a good guy. He obviously married a local, and had daughters that were raised in the "all bad" culture. How good could he have been? And like you said he tried to pimp his daughters. 

The only thing Lot had going for him was that his uncle was friends with God. And his uncle, Abraham, still cared for him. That is the only reason angels showed up to rescue him before everything was made into a smoking crater.

...and you did it again just as I wrote the above post. :blink:

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6 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

If you don't believe its a true story I don't get why you spend so much time and effort into trying to justify it ? That makes no sense to me.

To me it is a story that teaches. Would you defend something that you use as a teaching aid of your beliefs?

If I said Darwin's books were crap, because I believe differently, would not atheists step forward to defend that work?

I'm simply stating how I read the passage, versus how others are reading it.

If you said, "superman can fly". And some said you said superman was "flying around killing people"... would you not reply that you said no such thing and again post what you did mean?

Also, some do believe it to be real, and I'd defend their right to believe that also.

Edited by DieChecker
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8 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

To me it is a story that teaches. Would you defend something that you use as a teaching aid of your beliefs?

Soooo, what is the lesson, that you feel this story is trying to relate?

I'm not being snarky or condescending, show me the value of this tale. Convince me of it's validity.

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1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

To me it is a story that teaches.

What does it teach ? That if you are a bad person you will be okay if you have influential friends ? Thats a great message to send. :whistle: 

1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

Would you defend something that you use as a teaching aid of your beliefs?

My beliefs are my own, I don't need teaching aids.

1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

If I said Darwin's books were crap, because I believe differently, would not atheists step forward to defend that work?

Darwin have nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, Darwins books are about how life adapts to its enviroment. Two very different subjects.

There are things in Darwins books that we know are wrong and we know that because science evolves as new evidence is found.

There are religious people who believe in evolution and there are atheists that don't. Why is it so hard to see that they are completely different subjects ?

1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

Also, some do believe it to be real, and I'd defend their right to believe that also.

I believe that people should be free to have their own beliefs. On the other hand that doesn't mean they can't be challenged. People can believe the Earth is flat, but I'm also free to think that they are looneys if they do.

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12 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Soooo, what is the lesson, that you feel this story is trying to relate?

I'm not being snarky or condescending, show me the value of this tale. Convince me of it's validity.

It illustrated that God, even when He is going to destroy something is willing to listen and change the action if a good arguement is made. He was going to spare the cities if ten good men could be found living there.

It also illustrates mercy. God warns Lot, and even defends him, by way of angels before the destruction. Explicit warnings on how to escape were given. "If you look back this will kill you.".

It displays that even if you are a believer, not following the rules will get you punished.

It also gives the "origin" story of the Moabites, and Ammonites, and lays the reason why the Isrealites felt they had kinship with those people, yet were better then them. So sort of a mythic history thing.

I probably could google it and post a half dozen, or more, other things as take aways.

Basically illustrates God is in charge, all powerful, but can be reasoned with, and can be merciful, but is also strict, and can withdraw His mercy if necessary.

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28 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

What does it teach ? That if you are a bad person you will be okay if you have influential friends ? Thats a great message to send. :whistle: 

I'd say that God can have mercy even on those who dont deserve it. And perhaps family before all else. Abraham argued with God to save his fallen nephew. How much must Abrahan have loved him to do that?

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My beliefs are my own, I don't need teaching aids.

You dont have a book, or mentor, or historical figure you refer to to illustrate yourself to others?

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Darwin have nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, Darwins books are about how life adapts to its enviroment. Two very different subjects.

There are things in Darwins books that we know are wrong and we know that because science evolves as new evidence is found.

There are religious people who believe in evolution and there are atheists that don't. Why is it so hard to see that they are completely different subjects ?

Come now, we've both read numerous threads and thousands of posts that link atheism and Darwins work to each other.

The atheist view is Darwins theory of evolution is express evidence there is no God, as humans are just animals.

If I was disparaging the book because of my belief, would those who consider it fact, not step forward?

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I believe that people should be free to have their own beliefs. On the other hand that doesn't mean they can't be challenged. People can believe the Earth is flat, but I'm also free to think that they are looneys if they do.

I'd agree with that. 

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2 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Basically illustrates God is in charge, all powerful, but can be reasoned with, and can be merciful, but is also strict, and can withdraw His mercy if necessary.

IIRC, god was negotiated down to just "one good man", And I must disagree with your statement that your god can be 'merciful', the conditions were met, one "good man" was found, but the cities were destroyed regardless. If anything, the story shows that god does not, keep his word.

And I'm not really interested in "expert" explanations, I am more interested in your personal interpretation.

I know that you are a believer, but stating that "...God is in charge, all powerful...", is a very subjective statement. YOU believe in your god, but how do you (personally, YOU ) convince me that your belief structure is true?

I ask, in sincerity, convince me, convert me to seeing that what you believe is true. Give me YOUR best reasons for belief.

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4 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Come now, we've both read numerous threads and thousands of posts that link atheism and Darwins work to each other.

The atheist view is Darwins theory of evolution is express evidence there is no God, as humans are just animals.

Do I have to repeat that atheism is ONLY concerned with the god question? That it has NOTHING to do with evolution, gravity, abiogenesis, Big Bang Cosmology, Dark matter, quarks, or who is going to win "Dancing with the Stars"? 

From Webster:

 

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Definition of atheism

 

1a : a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
b : a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
2 archaic : godlessness especially in conduct : ungodliness, wickedness

 

 
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