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Doug1029

The Art of Compromise

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Doug1029

If we are ever going to close the gap between left and right, then we are all going to have to learn to compromise.  Give a little to get a little.  So what is most important to you as either a liberal or a conservative?  What would you give up in return for that?

Politics has been called the art of compromise, but there isn't a whole lot of the art in evidence these days.

 

For myself, I'd probably give up requiring business owners to provide a service against their religion if it secured women the right to control their own bodies, such as abortions and contraception.  Bakers could refuse to bake wedding cakes for gays and caterers wouldn't have to serve their events..

I'd be willing to let preachers/churches engage in politics without penalty if they paid income and property taxes like everybody else.  How about we let each organization decide for itself what it wanted to be:  a church, or a political action committee.  A "church" could still avoid taxes by becoming a non-profit organization and conforming to those rules.

 

How about we list what we would be willing to give up and what we want in exchange for it?

Doug

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Desertrat56

I don't think business owners are forced to provide services that they don't want to.  That law suit about the cake was a civil law suit, I believe, so I don't think you are trading anything.  I know that Hobby Lobby is allowed to operate based on the owner's religious beliefs by being allowed to refuse certain types of insurance coverage for their employees.  That is more of an issue than someone wanting to buy a cake from a specific bakery that does not want to sell it. 

I agree with you about religious organizations being involved in politics, they should either keep their tax free status and stay out of politics or switch to a 501 C status and define what kind of political involvement they plan.  That would be a compromise in my eyes.  As far as I know religious organizations are not supposed to be involved in politics period, legally not allowed because of separation from church and state.

I will think on this and see if I can think of some compromises.  I really think the division is manufactured because most of us want the same things, we just aren't informed enough to know how to express those and we are so easily distracted by emotional manipulation that we think the other is taking something from us, when in fact it is not that, but the manipulators, the people who are supposed to represent us are not representing us, they are keeping us at odds so they can take from us more easily.

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aztek
1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

If we are ever going to close the gap between left and right, then we are all going to have to learn to compromise.  Give a little to get a little. 

what are YOU willing to give, and what do YOU want to get?

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OverSword

What can we do to bring about civil discourse in the US?

source.gif

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Doug1029
11 minutes ago, aztek said:

what are YOU willing to give, and what do YOU want to get?

As I said in the intro:  I'd give up forcing businesses to serve gays if they are religiously opposed to it.  I'd give up keeping churches out of politics by denying their tax exemption.

I'd make more jobs available to older middle-class workers, especially in formal manufacturing areas in return for funding for additional wind turbines - maybe both in the same places.

What do I want?  Equal rights for ALL, including immigrants, universal health care, a new Equal Rights Amendment.

How about you?

Doug

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Setton
20 minutes ago, aztek said:

what are YOU willing to give, and what do YOU want to get?

It's literally in the first post...

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aztek
Just now, Doug1029 said:

As I said in the intro:  I'd give up forcing businesses to serve gays if they are religiously opposed to it.  I'd give up keeping churches out of politics by denying their tax exemption.

I'd make more jobs available to older middle-class workers, especially in formal manufacturing areas in return for funding for additional wind turbines - maybe both in the same places.

What do I want?  Equal rights for ALL, including immigrants, universal health care, a new Equal Rights Amendment.

How about you?

Doug

we already have equal right for all, it is called anti discrimination act of 1964 iirc. seems like you want special treatment.

universal health care is a myth, we have enough evidence to believe gvmnt will not make what we already have, better, 

i want less gvnmt, less regulations, , less indoctrination in schools,  more accountability, for gvmnt workers,  new, very tight regulations, for unions.

 

 

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Desertrat56
38 minutes ago, OverSword said:

What can we do to bring about civil discourse in the US?

source.gif

Get rid of the media and the politicians.

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Farmer77
13 hours ago, Doug1029 said:

If we are ever going to close the gap between left and right, then we are all going to have to learn to compromise.  Give a little to get a little.  So what is most important to you as either a liberal or a conservative?  What would you give up in return for that?

Politics has been called the art of compromise, but there isn't a whole lot of the art in evidence these days.

 

For myself, I'd probably give up requiring business owners to provide a service against their religion if it secured women the right to control their own bodies, such as abortions and contraception.  Bakers could refuse to bake wedding cakes for gays and caterers wouldn't have to serve their events..

I'd be willing to let preachers/churches engage in politics without penalty if they paid income and property taxes like everybody else.  How about we let each organization decide for itself what it wanted to be:  a church, or a political action committee.  A "church" could still avoid taxes by becoming a non-profit organization and conforming to those rules.

 

How about we list what we would be willing to give up and what we want in exchange for it?

Doug

 

12 hours ago, aztek said:

what are YOU willing to give, and what do YOU want to get?

I really appreciate the tone of your thread so refrained from saying so yesterday but I think the mouth breathers post (aztek that's you) highlights the point perfectly. Idk if compromise is possible because it's no longer a both sides issue. Its pretty hard to compromise when one sides sole purpose is to "win" and "own the libs" . 

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Hankenhunter
9 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

 

I really appreciate the tone of your thread so refrained from saying so yesterday but I think the mouth breathers post (aztek that's you) highlights the point perfectly. Idk if compromise is possible because it's no longer a both sides issue. Its pretty hard to compromise when one sides sole purpose is to "win" and "own the libs" at any and all costs . 

Fixed it for you.

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Farmer77
1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

Fixed it for you.

Thank you that actually really did complete the thought.

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OverSword

No politicians want civil discourse they want all the power, no compromises. Trump tried very reasonable compromises. Remember the dreamers? Trump met and then far exceeded the democrats demands for them in exchange for funding part of a southern wall. You know walls like nearly every other country in the world use on their borders? But the professional politicians refused compromise because they are supposedly opposed to walls, ignoring the fact that half the people that voted, voted for a wall. Forget compromise. You aren’t a politician and have no say about compromise. Look at my GIF further up the thread. That’s our answer

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OverSword
6 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

 

I really appreciate the tone of your thread so refrained from saying so yesterday but I think the mouth breathers post (aztek that's you) highlights the point perfectly. Idk if compromise is possible because it's no longer a both sides issue. Its pretty hard to compromise when one sides sole purpose is to "win" and "own the libs" . 

And the other side isn’t doing that huh? Get real farmer, the democrats have been hatching plot after plot and lie after lie wasting time and money trying to oust trump since before he was sworn in. As it turns out they could have just done their jobs, which they haven’t for 3 years, and waited for this phone call debacle. But if anything democrats are more guilty than the republicans of what you’re accusing.

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Farmer77
3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And the other side isn’t doing that huh? Get real farmer, the democrats have been hatching plot after plot and lie after lie wasting time and money trying to oust trump since before he was sworn in. As it turns out they could have just done their jobs, which they haven’t for 3 years, and waited for this phone call debacle. But if anything democrats are more guilty than the republicans of what you’re accusing.

 So you throw out lies and propaganda from the folks youre defending from the charge of being nothing but lies and propaganda? :lol:

Sorry amigo take away the tinfoil and you would have to take away your post. That's kind of my entire point.

From May:

Democrats in Congress are getting things done. Trump and Republicans are just ignoring them.

Quote

Trump is objectively wrong; House Democrats haven’t been squandering time. In addition to their investigations, they’ve been passing legislation at a rapid clip. In all, the House has taken up 51 bills, resolutions, and suspensions since January — 49 of which they’ve passed. This includes a slate of bills to attempt to end the longest government shutdown in history, the result of a protracted fight between Trump and Congress over border wall funding.

 

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Farmer77

@OverSword Dont get me wrong im not making some grand overarching statement about either party im just talking about this point in history.

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Tatetopa

Well, if nothing else, this thread is an example of why it is so hard to compromise.  There is a percentage of people on both sides that distrust the other side, think they are subhuman, and believe the world would be a better place without them.

I would give up power for the Democrats in exchange for giving up power for the Republicans.  I would give up pork barrels and  special treatment for my district in exchange for representatives that really represented their constituents.

I would give up 24 hour entertainment and outrage and anger porn from both sides in exchange for an hour a day of honesty and real news on the media.  TV, cable, talk radio, and the internet.

I would give up more entertainment and fun if Facebook and Twitter only disseminated the truth and not made up stuff targeted at me because they have sold my data to shadowy third parties.

I would give up government regulations on citizens in exchange for more oversight of large corporations.

I would give up the size of government if it remained large enough to protect us from the predatory nature of global corporations.

I would give up the two year cycle of giving the voters bread and circuses  and unfulfilled promises to get votes in exchange for a government that looked at long term issues and planned a better future for our children and grand children.

I would give up attempts to dominate the world or turn our backs on it for awareness of what is going on in the world and how it affects us and for us to make judicious use of our powers to protect our core liberties and principles.

I would give up being smug and right to learn something from the folks on the other side of issues.

I would gladly agree to an audit and overhaul of entitlement programs for an audit and overhaul of defense spending.

I would give up federal powers for more state powers.  If Alabama wants to cut social programs or California wants to increase mileage standards, let the people of the state decide what is good for the state.  

 

 

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OverSword
51 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

 So you throw out lies and propaganda from the folks youre defending from the charge of being nothing but lies and propaganda? :lol:

I’m defending anything, I’m saying they’ve been putting more  effort into ousting trump than they have on infrastructure, campaign finance reform, health care costs, or any of the other platforms they promised to and have failed to champion.

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Farmer77
1 minute ago, OverSword said:

I’m defending anything, I’m saying they’ve been putting more  effort into ousting trump than they have on infrastructure, campaign finance reform, health care costs, or any of the other platforms they promised to and have failed to champion.

And im saying youre simply repeating false propaganda....again this is what they had gotten done by may of this year .

Quote

Health care

  1. HR 259 — Medicaid Extenders Act of 2019
  2. House Resolution 271 — Condemning the Trump Administration’s Legal Campaign to Take Away Americans’ Health Care
  3. HR 986 — Protecting Americans with Preexisting Conditions Act of 2019
  4. HR 987 — Strengthening Health Care and Lowering Prescription Drug Costs Act
  5. HR 1520, the Purple Book Continuity Act (bill aimed at lowering the cost of prescription drugs)
  6. HR 1503, the Orange Book Transparency Act of 2019 (bill aimed at lowering the cost of prescription drugs)

Civil rights

  1. HR 1 — For the People Act of 2019
  2. HR 5 — Equality Act
  3. HR 7 — Paycheck Fairness Act
  4. HR 124 — Expressing opposition to banning service in the Armed Forces by openly transgender individuals

Gun control

  1. HR 8 — Bipartisan Background Checks Act of 2019
  2. HR 1112 — Enhanced Background Checks Act of 2019

Environment

  1. HR 9 — Climate Action Now Act
  2. HR 1331 — Local Water Protection Act
  3. S 47 — National Resources Management Act
  4. HR 2578 — National Flood Insurance Program Extension Act of 2019

Military/foreign affairs

  1. HR 840 — Veterans’ Access to Child Care Act
  2. HJ Res. 37 — Directing the removal of United States Armed Forces from hostilities in the Republic of Yemen that have not been authorized by Congress
  3. SJ Res. 7 — To direct the removal of United States Armed Forces from hostilities in the Republic of Yemen that have not been authorized by Congress
  4. HR 31 — Caesar Syria Civilian Protection Act of 2019
  5. HJ Res. 30 — Disapproving the President’s proposal to take an action relating to the application of certain sanctions with respect to the Russian Federation

Mueller report

  1. H.Con.Res. 24 — Expressing the sense of Congress that the report of Special Counsel Mueller should be made available to the public and to Congress.

Other legislation

  1. HR 1585 — Violence Against Women Reauthorization Act of 2019
  2. HR 1500 — Consumers First Act
  3. HR 1994 — SECURE Act
  4. HR 1644 — Save the Internet Act of 2019
  5. HR 2157 — Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2019
  6. HR 269 — Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness and Advancing Innovation Act of 2019
  7. HR 251 — Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards Program Extension Act
  8. S 24 — Government Employee Fair Treatment Act of 2019
  9. HR 430 — TANF Extension Act of 2019
  10. Concurring in the Senate Amendments to HR 251 — Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism Standard Program Extension Act
  11. HR 790 — Federal Civilian Workforce Pay Raise Fairness Act of 2019
  12. HJ Res. 46 — Relating to a national emergency declared by the President on February 15, 2019
  13. H Res. 183 — Condemning anti-Semitism as hateful expressions of intolerance that are contradictory to the values and aspirations that define the people of the United States and condemning anti-Muslim discrimination and bigotry against minorities as hateful expressions of intolerance that are contrary to the values and aspirations of the United States, as amended
  14. H Res. 194 — Rule Providing for Consideration of H.R. 1644 and H.R. 2021
  15. HR 2480 — Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act
  16. HR 375 — To amend the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 to reaffirm the authority of the Secretary of the Interior to take land into trust for Indian Tribes (also known as the “Carcieri Fix”)

Votes to end the government shutdown

  1. HR 21 — Making appropriations for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2019, and for other purposes
  2. HJ Res. 1 — Making further continuing appropriations for the Department of Homeland Security for fiscal year 2019, and for other purposes
  3. HR 265 — Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2019
  4. HR 267 — Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2019
  5. HR 266 — Department of the Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2019
  6. HR 268 — Disaster Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2019 (Disaster Supplemental and short-term continuing resolution through Feb. 8)
  7. HR 264 — Financial Services and General Government Appropriations Act
  8. HJ Res. 28 — Further Additional Continuing Appropriations Act, 2019 (Short-term continuing resolution through Feb. 28)
  9. HR 648 — Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2019 (Six conferenced bills minibus)
  10. HJ Res. 31 — Making further continuing appropriations for the Department of Homeland Security for fiscal year 2019 (Short-term homeland continuing resolution through Feb. 28)
  11. Conference Report to Accompany HJ Res 31 – Making consolidated appropriations for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2019, and for other purposes

 

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OverSword
56 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

@OverSword Dont get me wrong im not making some grand overarching statement about either party im just talking about this point in history.

If that were true you wouldn’t have said republicans and then cited bs stories about the great legislation they’re passing. Notably the only one specifically mentioned was the public debacle of playing games with government  shutdowns, caused because they refused to work with the compromise offered up in which everyone’s voters got a bit of what they voted for. Go watch the Tulsi Gabberd vid I posted in The Who will get the nomination thread and learn the truth. They are instructed to never work on bipartisanship by the party.

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OverSword

@Farmer77 lol! Passed resolution condemning things but not reversing. Ok. Maybe read details before cut and pasting huge swaths of not 

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Farmer77
Just now, OverSword said:

If that were true you wouldn’t have said republicans and then cited bs stories about the great legislation they’re passing. Notably the only one specifically mentioned was the public debacle of playing games with government  shutdowns, caused because they refused to work with the compromise offered up in which everyone’s voters got a bit of what they voted for. Go watch the Tulsi Gabberd vid I posted in The Who will get the nomination thread and learn the truth. They are instructed to never work on bipartisanship by the party.

By overarching I meant historical.  Im not saying that over time one party is worse than the other. I am saying the calculus has changed and the paradigm is shifting from a "both sides" problem to a one side has become aggressively authoritarian problem.  Your insistence that the dems have done nothing is a good example of how effective their propoganda programs are

2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

 lol! Passed resolution condemning things but not reversing. Ok. Maybe read details before cut and pasting huge swaths of not 

What exactly are you referring to Oversword?

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spartan max2

As a self proclaimed moderate, I feel like I compromise every time I vote for a president lol. 

 

Edited by spartan max2
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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

I’m defending anything, I’m saying they’ve been putting more  effort into ousting trump than they have on infrastructure, campaign finance reform, health care costs, or any of the other platforms they promised to and have failed to champion.

How many of those house bills are gathering dust on Mitch McConnell's desk.  It is  true to say they have not done enough, but the whole story is a bit more  nuanced and some blame can be shared

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spartan max2
1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

By overarching I meant historical.  Im not saying that over time one party is worse than the other. I am saying the calculus has changed and the paradigm is shifting from a "both sides" problem to a one side has become aggressively authoritarian problem.  Your insistence that the dems have done nothing is a good example of how effective their propoganda programs are

What exactly are you referring to Oversword?

I'm pretty sure the democrat controlled house passes bills that they know are not in a state the republican controlled senate will vote Yes on. They do it for optics, so they can say "look what the Republicans are against", without addressing the reasons the Republicans voted no. Then they don't bother revising it into a compromised state.

The republican controlled senate does the same thing.

I don't see the evidence you are implying that it has become a one side authoritarian republican problem?

 

Edited by spartan max2
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Farmer77
33 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I don't see the evidence you are implying that it has become a one side authoritarian republican problem?

Well the voting thing was kind of a rabbit trail disputing a claim oversword was making.

The authoritarian problem thing really is the whole picture. The cheering on and repeating of the lies, the attacking the free press, the weakening of the checks and balances, the use of conspiracy theory to combat facts ,the deference to and normalization of societal governmental and constitutional norm violating behaviors.

There have of course been versions of this to varying degrees in American political history but not to these seemingly endless extremes .

This is the prime example: President Trump’s alternate reality on Ukraine . Despite the entire intelligence apparatus, including Republican senators, agreeing on the story of the 2016 election and Russian interference we have Republican senators arguing that a quid pro quo to force a foreign nation to investigate interference in the 2016 election was a legitimate request.

Another recent example is the GOP reps who sit on the committees doing the interviews screaming about how Republicans dont have access to the interviews.

At this point the entire party exists to placate a single individual and his ego driven whims. I guess there are other terms than authoritarian but none of them positive.

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