Farmer77 Posted November 13, 2019 #126 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, OverSword said: Legally here is what matters. Did the Ukrainian government reopen the investigation? Was the aid given? That is wholly irrelevant. The attempt at using the office of POTUS to bribe the Ukraine to open an investigation into a political opponent is impeachable on and of itself whether the attempted bribery worked or not. Edited November 13, 2019 by Farmer77 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #127 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Farmer77 said: The attempt at US ng the office of POTUS to bribe the Ukraine to open an investigation into a political opponent is impeachable on and of itself whether the attempted bribery worked or not. It's quite obvious this didn't happen. On the other hand, it's becoming MORE and MORE obvious that Obama administration officials (and their accomplices) are neck-deep in corruption. I'm not trying to change YOUR mind, though, since your crazy-eyed assertions provide us with comic relief. Cheers! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted November 13, 2019 #128 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 minute ago, hacktorp said: It's quite obvious this didn't happen. You mean besides the witness testimony, text messages and contemporaneous notes showing it did. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #129 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Sean DavisVerified account @seanmdav FollowFollow @seanmdav More As best I can tell by Bill Taylor's testimony thus far, Trump's real crime is refusing to delegate the entirety of U.S. foreign policy decision-making to a coterie of unelected career bureaucrats who think the Constitution gives them all power and authority to run the country. 8:20 AM - 13 Nov 2019 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted November 13, 2019 #130 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Just now, hacktorp said: Sean DavisVerified account @seanmdav FollowFollow @seanmdav More As best I can tell by Bill Taylor's testimony thus far, Trump's real crime is refusing to delegate the entirety of U.S. foreign policy decision-making to a coterie of unelected career bureaucrats who think the Constitution gives them all power and authority to run the country. 8:20 AM - 13 Nov 2019 In other words he bypassed congressional oversight to conduct an unauthorized foreign policy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #131 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Just now, Farmer77 said: You mean besides the witness testimony, text messages and contemporaneous notes showing it did. Nothing of that sort exists, except in the soft and pliable minds of Schiff-heads. It's ALL weak and unsubstantiated innuendo. ALL of it. Remember, the Schiff-heads are the ones who've swallowed every single (failed) Democrat hoax. Know anyone like that? Lol... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #132 Share Posted November 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: In other words he bypassed congressional oversight to conduct an unauthorized foreign policy No. In other words, Trump exerted the authority of the executive. Which makes the petulant Dems collectively lose their sh!t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #133 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Mark MeadowsVerified account @RepMarkMeadows FollowFollow @RepMarkMeadows More "Mr. Taylor, what did Ambassador Sondland tell you when you called him on September 9th?" Taylor: "He (Sondland) said I was wrong about the President's intent—that there was no quid pro quo." 8:58 AM - 13 Nov 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted November 13, 2019 #134 Share Posted November 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, hacktorp said: Nothing of that sort exists, except in the soft and pliable minds of Schiff-heads. It's ALL weak and unsubstantiated innuendo. ALL of it. Remember, the Schiff-heads are the ones who've swallowed every single (failed) Democrat hoax. Know anyone like that? Lol... How did it even get this far? Can Trump not sue for harassment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #135 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Mark R. LevinVerified account @marklevinshow FollowFollow @marklevinshow More 1. We are a full hour into this idiotic hearing, and not a single word relating to anything relevant to impeachment. In fact, these two witnesses arrogantly tell us about their careers in the bureaucracy, their private lives, their history lessons & their opinions about policy. 8:12 AM - 13 Nov 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted November 13, 2019 #136 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, hacktorp said: Mark MeadowsVerified account @RepMarkMeadows FollowFollow @RepMarkMeadows More "Mr. Taylor, what did Ambassador Sondland tell you when you called him on September 9th?" Taylor: "He (Sondland) said I was wrong about the President's intent—that there was no quid pro quo." 8:58 AM - 13 Nov 2019 he didn't listen to the rest of his evidence then where he quite clearly highlighted quid pro quo even if Trump didn't want the words quid pro quo as a descriptor as to what he was doing Its quite clear from the evidence given there was an issue where funding and meetings where being withheld subject to a public statement by the Ukrainians saying they would investigate Burisma and Crowdstrike. . Whether you call it quid pro quo or blackmail or tiddly winks makes no difference. Edited November 13, 2019 by RAyMO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #137 Share Posted November 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said: How did it even get this far? Can Trump not sue for harassment? He may be able to sue for that and much more. Trump may be President, but he remains a citizen with civil rights. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #138 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 minute ago, RAyMO said: Its quite clear from the evidence given there was an issue where funding and meetings where being withheld subject to a public state by the Ukrainians. Whether you call it quid pro quo or blackmail or tiddly winks makes no difference. Not at all. While this may be the claim by Schiff and the Dems, they have NOTHING of substance to back it up. Still, this is apparently the hill that Shiff and the Dems have chosen to die on. And die they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted November 13, 2019 #139 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, hacktorp said: Nothing of that sort exists, except in the soft and pliable minds of Schiff-heads. It's ALL weak and unsubstantiated innuendo. ALL of it. Remember, the Schiff-heads are the ones who've swallowed every single (failed) Democrat hoax. Know anyone like that? Lol... the notes exist - Taylor even thinks the administration might allow them to be released to the committee. Edited November 13, 2019 by RAyMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted November 13, 2019 #140 Share Posted November 13, 2019 37 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: That is wholly irrelevant. The attempt at using the office of POTUS to bribe the Ukraine to open an investigation into a political opponent is impeachable on and of itself whether the attempted bribery worked or not. You may be right but that has yet to be determined. The argument is easily made that there was corruption involving Biden, aid money, the Ukrainian government and the Ukrainian gas company and that it's the government's job, and therefore the presidents, that we make sure we do not give aid to corrupt entities. I know, sounds like a stretch but that's the argument that will be made and it's factually true if you want to tick boxes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted November 13, 2019 #141 Share Posted November 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, hacktorp said: Not at all. While this may be the claim by Schiff and the Dems, they have NOTHING of substance to back it up. As per above its seems contemporary notes will be released - these are but the first of numerous witnesses, well positioned people. But of course you lot think no-one can be honest except Trump - possibly the best known liar in the universe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #142 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 minute ago, RAyMO said: Quote the notes exist - Taylor even thinks the administration might allow them to be released to the committee. Of course "notes exist". Notes are always taken of communications between presidents. Dems' innuendo that those notes must contain yet another "smoking gun" is purely a pipe dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted November 13, 2019 #143 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 minute ago, OverSword said: You may be right but that has yet to be determined. The argument is easily made that there was corruption involving Biden, aid money, the Ukrainian government and the Ukrainian gas company and that it's the government's job, and therefore the presidents, that we make sure we do not give aid to corrupt entities. I know, sounds like a stretch but that's the argument that will be made and it's factually true if you want to tick boxes. Except that no-one in government pressed for this - and if Prresident Trump thought it was important he should have off loaded to the government to investigate - rather than trying to blackmail a foreign power into doing the investigation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted November 13, 2019 #144 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Just now, hacktorp said: Of course "notes exist". Notes are always taken of communications between presidents. Dems' innuendo that those notes must contain yet another "smoking gun" is purely a pipe dream. Taylor is talking about his contemporary notes for meetings with the sonderland? guy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #145 Share Posted November 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, RAyMO said: But of course you lot think no-one can be honest except Trump - possibly the best known liar in the universe. It's this sort of lunatic hyperbole that is increasingly showing the American people which side is on the defensive...and poised for a major 'crash and burn' event. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted November 13, 2019 #146 Share Posted November 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, hacktorp said: Still, this is apparently the hill that Shiff and the Dems have chosen to die on. In reality if the outcome of this was based on facts rather than political persuasion it be more like a little knoll 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted November 13, 2019 #147 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, hacktorp said: It's this sort of lunatic hyperbole that is increasingly showing the American people which side is on the defensive...and poised for a major 'crash and burn' event. I can't help the facts. Or you saying he is not a compulsive liar. Edited November 13, 2019 by RAyMO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted November 13, 2019 #148 Share Posted November 13, 2019 15 hours ago, Farmer77 said: If the call was the only thing that happened then sure you'd be correct. There was however a whole ton of other coordination of the campaign to pressure Zelinsky than just the phone call. The witnesses to that coordination are testifying. I'm looking forward to reading it all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted November 13, 2019 #149 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, RAyMO said: Except that no-one in government pressed for this - and if Prresident Trump thought it was important he should have off loaded to the government to investigate - rather than trying to blackmail a foreign power into doing the investigation. Didn't he do that with Pence who's job it is to deal with foreign governments? What you're not seeing is that we can't investigate the Ukrainian government or their companies so there is a very strong argument to be made that asking them to look into something which occurred in their own country is the correct path to initiate a wider investigation into corruption involving the a former US official. As a matter of fact trump does reference that he will have the Attorney General contact him on this matter but hadn't yet when the leak occurred. Edited November 13, 2019 by OverSword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian hacktorp Posted November 13, 2019 #150 Share Posted November 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, RAyMO said: I can't help the facts. Or you saying he is not a compulsive liar. The only relevant question is whether he's a criminal. The facts, which you can't help, clearly show the answer is "no". As for the panicked, clucking chickens claiming Trump IS a criminal, well, their necks are on the chopping block...because they ARE criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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