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jmccr8

Afterlife, digital copies or clones

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jmccr8

So I was talking to Walker in another thread and he posed that the afterlife has never existed and we will create it by downloading consciousness and either creating genetic clones or implanted in tech like androids what are your thoughts. Personally I wouldn't consider it as afterlife especially if the consciousness is downloaded into a clone that has potential to be a unique self of it's own.

jmccr8

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Piney
12 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

So I was talking to Walker in another thread and he posed that the afterlife has never existed and we will create it by downloading consciousness and either creating genetic clones or implanted in tech like androids what are your thoughts. Personally I wouldn't consider it as afterlife especially if the consciousness is downloaded into a clone that has potential to be a unique self of it's own.

jmccr8

Identical twins are clone yet they develop distinct personalities. 

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Kittens Are Jerks

Consciousness is not an inherent part of the universe and cannot exist without the brain. Not sure, then, how consciousness could be isolated, extracted and 'downloaded' into an android or whatever and still remain viable. But, for the sake of argument, assuming it could be done, I don't see what it would achieve as consciousness is just a a teeny weeny component of all the information our brains process. So whilst the concept might make for a good Twilight Zone episode, it is totally impossible in reality.

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jmccr8
4 minutes ago, Piney said:

Identical twins are clone yet they develop distinct personalities. 

Hi Piney 

Agreed which is why I consider Walker's proposal of occupying a cone body flawed.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
Cern moment
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jmccr8
9 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Consciousness is not an inherent part of the universe and cannot exist without the brain. Not sure, then, how consciousness could be isolated, extracted and 'downloaded' into an android or whatever and still remain viable. But, for the sake of argument, assuming it could be done, I don't see what it would achieve as consciousness is just a a teeny weeny component of all the information our brains process. So whilst the concept might make for a good Twilight Zone episode, it is totally impossible in reality.

Hi Kittens

I agree with what you are saying as if it could be done it wouldn't actually be afterlife as it is a continuation in an abstract sense of being in the world that I do not think of as being viable there are too many variables. Depending on the tech I would think that the lose of sensory perception would/could case mental distress that we have no concept of.

jmccr8

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jmccr8

I find it interesting that someone who would say that the afterlife does not exist but it can be create it in the future especially from a person that defends religious concepts as an interesting avenue of exploration and hope Walker joins in to define this concept.

jmccr8

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Rlyeh

Walker also thinks there is a wormhole just outside the solar system left there to help us travel the galaxy..

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jmccr8
2 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Walker also thinks there is a wormhole just outside the solar system left there to help us travel the galaxy..

Hi Rlyeh

That is true along with many other claims that are somehow linked like his god that offers no afterlife and can die so I am hoping that he will join in and discuss these relationships.

jmccr8

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Personally I wouldn't consider it as afterlife especially if the consciousness is downloaded into a clone that has potential to be a unique self of it's own.

The cloning/downloading proposal does not sound like an 'afterlife' in any real sense to me.  The only way I see it works is that we posit that there is a 'soul' that is being transferred, not copied, to somewhere somehow while waiting perhaps for a new body (a la, the plot for countless sci-fi episodes/stories).  This would not be what Walker is referring to as he's talking about extrapolating from current technology which is obviously only dealing with the physical, and is definitely a copy and not a transfer process.  Under his scenario, if this technology existed someone could unbeknownst to me download my consciousness tonight while I'm sleeping and unaware of it.  That copy of my consciousness is then restored in a clone, or multiple clones, or perhaps from multiple different backups of my brain at different points in time of my life into multiple clones.  I then die and have no idea this at all happened, I don't even know there are copies of my (old) consciousness running around being dead and all, I share no senses or thoughts with them, only memories.  And that wouldn't change even if I did know about all these clones.

Don't pretty much all conceptions of 'afterlife' at least require me to know that I'm still alive?  'Afterlife' is really stretching it to refer to something like this, this is an 'afterlife' like Taco Bell taco meat is 'beef'; might be technically true under certain expanded definitions, but is regardless a major disappointment when compared with other scenarios/products that are typically referred to with those words.

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jmccr8
4 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

The cloning/downloading proposal does not sound like an 'afterlife' in any real sense to me.  The only way I see it works is that we posit that there is a 'soul' that is being transferred, not copied, to somewhere somehow while waiting perhaps for a new body (a la, the plot for countless sci-fi episodes/stories). 

Hi Liquid Gardens

Agreed because a copy is not the original and at this time we do not have evidence to support the existence of "soul"

6 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 This would not be what Walker is referring to as he's talking about extrapolating from current technology which is obviously only dealing with the physical, and is definitely a copy and not a transfer process.  Under his scenario, if this technology existed someone could unbeknownst to me download my consciousness tonight while I'm sleeping and unaware of it.  That copy of my consciousness is then restored in a clone, or multiple clones, or perhaps from multiple different backups of my brain at different points in time of my life into multiple clones.  I then die and have no idea this at all happened, I don't even know there are copies of my (old) consciousness running around being dead and all, I share no senses or thoughts with them, only memories.  And that wouldn't change even if I did know about all these clones.

Yes, and the part that I find questionable is taking the individual potential of the clone as a being that can experience being in the world to accommodate the desire of another to take that potential away simply to ensure their continued existence, I would see it as a form of possession by force.

jmccr8

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XenoFish
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

So I was talking to Walker in another thread and he posed that the afterlife has never existed and we will create it by downloading consciousness and either creating genetic clones or implanted in tech like androids what are your thoughts. Personally I wouldn't consider it as afterlife especially if the consciousness is downloaded into a clone that has potential to be a unique self of it's own.

jmccr8

Doesn't matter which it is. It won't be us, just a copy of us. The only way to have something like an afterlife is a virtual reality hooked up to your brain that's kept alive through some mad science.

robocop-2-1990-12.jpg

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jmccr8
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Doesn't matter which it is. It won't be us, just a copy of us. The only way to have something like an afterlife is a virtual reality hooked up to your brain that's kept alive through some mad science.

robocop-2-1990-12.jpg

Hi Xeno

Yes exactly my point in opening the thread and to encourage Walker to explain the hows and whys of his construct.:D:tu:

jmccr8

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

You are no more than your identity, which is your memory and thoughts

(BTW, there's a separate thread for this now, I've copied your quote to here from the other thread.)

I am more than my identity though, since you don't dispute yet that my awareness of my memory and thoughts ceases when I die.  Thus since there's something that does not live on and can't be copied, some would say the most important thing actually, we possess something else that is not just memory and thoughts.

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Rolltide

Somebody must have watched Chappie..

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jmccr8
2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

(BTW, there's a separate thread for this now, I've copied your quote to here from the other thread.)

I am more than my identity though, since you don't dispute yet that my awareness of my memory and thoughts ceases when I die.  Thus since there's something that does not live on and can't be copied, some would say the most important thing actually, we possess something else that is not just memory and thoughts.

Hi Liquid Gardens

I was just thinking that if a consciousness could be downloaded into tech what's to say that that consciousness would have control over the tech it existed in like say for instance that the individuals consciousness was downloaded into an ipod full of music it couldn't stand and had no control of, hmm sounds like a digital hell to me.:rolleyes::whistle::lol:

jmccr8

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spartan max2

Many sci fi stories have approached this topic.

My issue is that even if we could upload our conciousness, it would just be making a copy. 

So sure, the copied conciousness would have all your member and feel like you.

But the actual you would still be dead. You would not be the one expierencing it. Your copied conciousness would be. 

You still die. 

Edited by spartan max2
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psyche101
7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Piney 

Agreed which is why I consider Walker's proposal of occupying a cone body flawed.

jmccr8

Most likely its just another long winded imaginative way to be controversial and get lots of people talking to him. 

Even if it worked, its not the classic definition of an afterlife. It's biotech. You know how Walker likes to exaggerate and deliberately confuse terms. The whale episode really put things into perspective there. It's just more of that shock value approach. 

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

Most likely its just another long winded imaginative way to be controversial and get lots of people talking to him. 

Even if it worked, its not the classic definition of an afterlife. It's biotech. You know how Walker likes to exaggerate and deliberately confuse terms. The whale episode really put things into perspective there. It's just more of that shock value approach. 

Hi Psyche

At least here he would be on topic and I think that to have his perspectives developed and countered an a specific place would do two things, first reduce distraction in other threads and second explore the relationships that he sees that tie his god/alien, special abilities, religious constructs etc.together and if they are dependent or inter-dependent on each other.

I don't have the intention to ridicule or make judgments on him as a person I am just curious as about his self perception and it's relationship with reality or rather the known world as we know it.:D

Walker is not the only person that has some interesting views but he is the most receptive to actually discussing his particular POV so that is why I have been trying to encourage him to bring that discussion to one thread where he will be on topic and his views constructively challenged and that may require some member support like redirecting a post in a thread to here for responses or helping not getting the thread shut down and see what develops.:D

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

(BTW, there's a separate thread for this now, I've copied your quote to here from the other thread.)

I am more than my identity though, since you don't dispute yet that my awareness of my memory and thoughts ceases when I die.  Thus since there's something that does not live on and can't be copied, some would say the most important thing actually, we possess something else that is not just memory and thoughts.

No you are not more than your memory (and i have experience of this, when my dad suffered catastrophic memory loss (transient global amnesia)  going back to his teens. ALso when my parents in law had Alzheimers and slowly lost all sense of who the y were, or had been.   Lose your memory and you lose your identity and sense of self.  

He forgot EVERYTHING that had happened in the last 40 years  (Luckily withn 24 hours he slowly regained that memory 

Your memory and identity naturally ceases when you die UNLESS it is being recorded and stored "off line" or unless you have periodic uploads of your memory to another host for later retrieval 

In that case, when resurrected you begin at your latest upload only having "lost" the period of time between the uproar and death  Just as if you had been in a coma or hibernation for thet period of time 

What do you think cannot be copied? 

What do you think we possess, apart from  our memories and current thoughts? 

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Mr Walker
45 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Many sci fi stories have approached this topic.

My issue is that even if we could upload our conciousness, it would just be making a copy. 

So sure, the copied conciousness would have all your member and feel like you.

But the actual you would still be dead. You would not be the one expierencing it. Your copied conciousness would be. 

You still die. 

It depends what you consider to be "you".

I am only a functioning biochemical computer, processing past experiences and memories, and constructing new ones, while operating in,my current environment 

Take my memories, and install them in a new functioning processor (organic or artificial) and i remain  "myself" 

Ensure i am in a cloned body of my original self  and basically i am identical  Divide me into 12  copies and for a short time i will exist as identical beings, all of which are myself.

As each unit has different experiences each will diverge.  

So no, the "you"  (which is entirely your sense of self or the I inside you)  would NOT die. it would go on uninterrupted, possibly for millennia  If you do not experience death, does it occur? 

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

Your memory and identity naturally ceases when you die UNLESS it is being recorded and stored "off line" or unless you have periodic uploads of your memory to another host for later retrieval 

Hi Walker

Thanks for joining us.

If that were the case then one would need to show where and by who is this data collected and what is the purpose. I would also be interested in how it was stored if we are yet to create it with regards to those who passed before us. The most common theme in afterlife that I have seen is to one day be reunited so either the collection system predates the evolution of life or everyone has been lied to if we are yet to create it so there will be no seeing your relatives and loved ones which you have in past recounted having lived your father's and other historical people's lives. How does that work?

jmccr8

 

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Mr Walker
44 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Most likely its just another long winded imaginative way to be controversial and get lots of people talking to him. 

Even if it worked, its not the classic definition of an afterlife. It's biotech. You know how Walker likes to exaggerate and deliberately confuse terms. The whale episode really put things into perspective there. It's just more of that shock value approach. 

gee Ive always considered that, in reality, the classic  definition of after life is reliant on biotech (I dont believe in supernatural miracles   I've always assumed that miracles are examples of advanced technology including bio tech )

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Mr Walker
16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Thanks for joining us.

If that were the case then one would need to show where and by who is this data collected and what is the purpose. I would also be interested in how it was stored if we are yet to create it with regards to those who passed before us. The most common theme in afterlife that I have seen is to one day be reunited so either the collection system predates the evolution of life or everyone has been lied to if we are yet to create it so there will be no seeing your relatives and loved ones which you have in past recounted having lived your father's and other historical people's lives. How does that work?

jmccr8

 

lol hadn't even noticed i was on a new thread I was just responding as i do to all the new posts which involved me :)  

Thought i was still arguing on an old thread

Your post made me look up and see it was a new thread :) 

Not sure i understand  the specifics of your questions 

My take 

An ancient race either by its own abilities or via advanced technology provides an internet of the mind which has existed for millenia

This links all consciousnesses in the galaxy  and can be accessed by any slef aware mind  that has achieved gnosis or enlightenment,  for communication and learning/education or entertainment 

As  a part of this, the consciousnesses of all self  aware beings (and possibly non self aware ones) are recorded and stored In a virtual library as archived "living" ie interactive, consciousnesses 

Thus you or I can do the following. 

Access a past consciousness  on earth to study history 

Access the life of a deceased loved one to share it with them and spend time with them 

Acces the minds of living people and  the cosmic consciousness itself 

Access the  present and past consciousnesses of species/individuals from  all over the galaxy and see their lives through their eyes 

I dont know the technology involved although it is not unimaginably superior to what humans  will develop in the next century or two

I do know what the experience is like of accessing it  and interacting withit

its a mind to mind thing not a physical experience and so, for me, it comes mainly as i sleep,  although sometimes it happens while I am wide awake. 

Other people  experience, and have written about it, in other ways. 

I will describe one example, which a reader can take or leave, which explain how this can be used 

My dad died unexpectedly in 2009.

I wanted to find out more abut his youth and the time he was courting my mother so i accessed his archived consciousness while I was  asleep I lived many hours of his life with him fromabout  1945 to 1950. That included going to dances with him on his motorbike and playing tennis with him plus a lot of talks about his beliefs, ideas, and ideals/hopes etc.   I observed details and talked with him 

he didnt  know he was dead and i didn't tel him  I just interacted with his consciousness and learned a lot, and enjoyed spending time with him as a young man

Later i checked many of the details, which i had never known, with my mother She confirmed them.

I  also went in real life to the country halls we had visited together   for dances etc back in the  forties  The y were still almost exactly as the y were in my "dreams

You know, maybe this was all just my imagination and lucid dreaming yet many details were confirmable and confirmed by my mother  But any way, it was a wonderful and uplifting experience to have many more hours with my father  and to get to know him in the years before i was born  Apart for my wife i have never loved nor respected anyone more than my father and mother, and so this was quite special for me 

Edited by Mr Walker
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jmccr8
6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

lol hadn't even noticed i was on a new thread I was just responding as i do to all the new posts which involved me :)  

Thought i was still arguing on an old thread

Your post made me look up and see it was a new thread :) 

Hi Walker

Yeah neat eh I downloaded your consciousness into another thread.:lol:

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

An ancient race either by its own abilities or via advanced technology provides an internet of the mind which has existed for millenia

This links all consciousnesses in the galaxy  and can be accessed by any slef aware mind  that has achieved gnosis or enlightenment,  for communication and learning/education or entertainment 

As  a part of this, the consciousnesses of all self  aware beings (and possibly non self aware ones) are recorded and stored In a virtual library as archived "living" ie interactive, consciousnesses 

Yes but that leaves us with the same problem that we have with the religious construct of afterlife, how do you show it's potential without evidence?

10 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Thus you or I can do the following. 

Access a past consciousness  on earth to study history 

Access the life of a deceased loved one to share it with them and spend time with them 

Acces the minds of living people and  the cosmic consciousness itself 

Access the  present and past consciousnesses of species/individuals from  all over the galaxy and see their lives through their eyes 

I dont know the technology involved although it is not unimaginably superior to what humans  will develop in the next century or two

I do know what the experience is like of accessing it  and interacting withit

This is not something that I have experienced which is why I am questioning you.:D

12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

its a mind to mind thing not a physical experience and so, for me, it comes mainly as i sleep,  although sometimes it happens while I am wide awake. 

Other people  experience, and have written about it, in other ways. 

So if it happens in your sleep why would it not be anything more than lucid dreaming which is an activity that you pursue quite avidly?

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
9 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Yeah neat eh I downloaded your consciousness into another thread.:lol:

Yes but that leaves us with the same problem that we have with the religious construct of afterlife, how do you show it's potential without evidence?

This is not something that I have experienced which is why I am questioning you.:D

So if it happens in your sleep why would it not be anything more than lucid dreaming which is an activity that you pursue quite avidly?

jmccr8

See the rest of my post, added after the initial posting :)   I observed and found out things i could not have known, from  before my birth These were confirmed by my mother, by research, and by visiting the places we visited "together"  back in the forties. 

In a way, I dont care if it was "real " or not.

I was able to spend many interesting hours ( fully aware of what was happening ) with my deceased father. He could only be as he was back then, but he could interact with me and respond to my questions from his consciousness of the time  ie he could describe his views feelings  and thoughts on anything from the  period  It was like a fully interactive hologram where i was the only one alive and aware of the reality of the occasion,  but everything else was real and detailed and accurately portrayed .

Edited by Mr Walker

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