jmccr8 Posted November 6, 2019 #1 Share Posted November 6, 2019 So I was talking to Walker in another thread and he posed that the afterlife has never existed and we will create it by downloading consciousness and either creating genetic clones or implanted in tech like androids what are your thoughts. Personally I wouldn't consider it as afterlife especially if the consciousness is downloaded into a clone that has potential to be a unique self of it's own. jmccr8 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Piney Posted November 6, 2019 Popular Post #2 Share Posted November 6, 2019 12 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: So I was talking to Walker in another thread and he posed that the afterlife has never existed and we will create it by downloading consciousness and either creating genetic clones or implanted in tech like androids what are your thoughts. Personally I wouldn't consider it as afterlife especially if the consciousness is downloaded into a clone that has potential to be a unique self of it's own. jmccr8 Identical twins are clone yet they develop distinct personalities. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittens Are Jerks Posted November 6, 2019 #3 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Consciousness is not an inherent part of the universe and cannot exist without the brain. Not sure, then, how consciousness could be isolated, extracted and 'downloaded' into an android or whatever and still remain viable. But, for the sake of argument, assuming it could be done, I don't see what it would achieve as consciousness is just a a teeny weeny component of all the information our brains process. So whilst the concept might make for a good Twilight Zone episode, it is totally impossible in reality. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 6, 2019 Author #4 Share Posted November 6, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Piney said: Identical twins are clone yet they develop distinct personalities. Hi Piney Agreed which is why I consider Walker's proposal of occupying a cone body flawed. jmccr8 Edited November 6, 2019 by jmccr8 Cern moment 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 6, 2019 Author #5 Share Posted November 6, 2019 9 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said: Consciousness is not an inherent part of the universe and cannot exist without the brain. Not sure, then, how consciousness could be isolated, extracted and 'downloaded' into an android or whatever and still remain viable. But, for the sake of argument, assuming it could be done, I don't see what it would achieve as consciousness is just a a teeny weeny component of all the information our brains process. So whilst the concept might make for a good Twilight Zone episode, it is totally impossible in reality. Hi Kittens I agree with what you are saying as if it could be done it wouldn't actually be afterlife as it is a continuation in an abstract sense of being in the world that I do not think of as being viable there are too many variables. Depending on the tech I would think that the lose of sensory perception would/could case mental distress that we have no concept of. jmccr8 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 6, 2019 Author #6 Share Posted November 6, 2019 I find it interesting that someone who would say that the afterlife does not exist but it can be create it in the future especially from a person that defends religious concepts as an interesting avenue of exploration and hope Walker joins in to define this concept. jmccr8 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted November 6, 2019 #7 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Walker also thinks there is a wormhole just outside the solar system left there to help us travel the galaxy.. 3 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 6, 2019 Author #8 Share Posted November 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: Walker also thinks there is a wormhole just outside the solar system left there to help us travel the galaxy.. Hi Rlyeh That is true along with many other claims that are somehow linked like his god that offers no afterlife and can die so I am hoping that he will join in and discuss these relationships. jmccr8 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 6, 2019 #9 Share Posted November 6, 2019 1 hour ago, jmccr8 said: Personally I wouldn't consider it as afterlife especially if the consciousness is downloaded into a clone that has potential to be a unique self of it's own. The cloning/downloading proposal does not sound like an 'afterlife' in any real sense to me. The only way I see it works is that we posit that there is a 'soul' that is being transferred, not copied, to somewhere somehow while waiting perhaps for a new body (a la, the plot for countless sci-fi episodes/stories). This would not be what Walker is referring to as he's talking about extrapolating from current technology which is obviously only dealing with the physical, and is definitely a copy and not a transfer process. Under his scenario, if this technology existed someone could unbeknownst to me download my consciousness tonight while I'm sleeping and unaware of it. That copy of my consciousness is then restored in a clone, or multiple clones, or perhaps from multiple different backups of my brain at different points in time of my life into multiple clones. I then die and have no idea this at all happened, I don't even know there are copies of my (old) consciousness running around being dead and all, I share no senses or thoughts with them, only memories. And that wouldn't change even if I did know about all these clones. Don't pretty much all conceptions of 'afterlife' at least require me to know that I'm still alive? 'Afterlife' is really stretching it to refer to something like this, this is an 'afterlife' like Taco Bell taco meat is 'beef'; might be technically true under certain expanded definitions, but is regardless a major disappointment when compared with other scenarios/products that are typically referred to with those words. 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 6, 2019 Author #10 Share Posted November 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: The cloning/downloading proposal does not sound like an 'afterlife' in any real sense to me. The only way I see it works is that we posit that there is a 'soul' that is being transferred, not copied, to somewhere somehow while waiting perhaps for a new body (a la, the plot for countless sci-fi episodes/stories). Hi Liquid Gardens Agreed because a copy is not the original and at this time we do not have evidence to support the existence of "soul" 6 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: This would not be what Walker is referring to as he's talking about extrapolating from current technology which is obviously only dealing with the physical, and is definitely a copy and not a transfer process. Under his scenario, if this technology existed someone could unbeknownst to me download my consciousness tonight while I'm sleeping and unaware of it. That copy of my consciousness is then restored in a clone, or multiple clones, or perhaps from multiple different backups of my brain at different points in time of my life into multiple clones. I then die and have no idea this at all happened, I don't even know there are copies of my (old) consciousness running around being dead and all, I share no senses or thoughts with them, only memories. And that wouldn't change even if I did know about all these clones. Yes, and the part that I find questionable is taking the individual potential of the clone as a being that can experience being in the world to accommodate the desire of another to take that potential away simply to ensure their continued existence, I would see it as a form of possession by force. jmccr8 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted November 6, 2019 #11 Share Posted November 6, 2019 1 hour ago, jmccr8 said: So I was talking to Walker in another thread and he posed that the afterlife has never existed and we will create it by downloading consciousness and either creating genetic clones or implanted in tech like androids what are your thoughts. Personally I wouldn't consider it as afterlife especially if the consciousness is downloaded into a clone that has potential to be a unique self of it's own. jmccr8 Doesn't matter which it is. It won't be us, just a copy of us. The only way to have something like an afterlife is a virtual reality hooked up to your brain that's kept alive through some mad science. 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 6, 2019 Author #12 Share Posted November 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Doesn't matter which it is. It won't be us, just a copy of us. The only way to have something like an afterlife is a virtual reality hooked up to your brain that's kept alive through some mad science. Hi Xeno Yes exactly my point in opening the thread and to encourage Walker to explain the hows and whys of his construct. jmccr8 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted November 7, 2019 #13 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Mr Walker said: You are no more than your identity, which is your memory and thoughts (BTW, there's a separate thread for this now, I've copied your quote to here from the other thread.) I am more than my identity though, since you don't dispute yet that my awareness of my memory and thoughts ceases when I die. Thus since there's something that does not live on and can't be copied, some would say the most important thing actually, we possess something else that is not just memory and thoughts. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolltide Posted November 7, 2019 #14 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Somebody must have watched Chappie.. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 7, 2019 Author #15 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: (BTW, there's a separate thread for this now, I've copied your quote to here from the other thread.) I am more than my identity though, since you don't dispute yet that my awareness of my memory and thoughts ceases when I die. Thus since there's something that does not live on and can't be copied, some would say the most important thing actually, we possess something else that is not just memory and thoughts. Hi Liquid Gardens I was just thinking that if a consciousness could be downloaded into tech what's to say that that consciousness would have control over the tech it existed in like say for instance that the individuals consciousness was downloaded into an ipod full of music it couldn't stand and had no control of, hmm sounds like a digital hell to me. jmccr8 1 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan max2 Posted November 7, 2019 #16 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) Many sci fi stories have approached this topic. My issue is that even if we could upload our conciousness, it would just be making a copy. So sure, the copied conciousness would have all your member and feel like you. But the actual you would still be dead. You would not be the one expierencing it. Your copied conciousness would be. You still die. Edited November 7, 2019 by spartan max2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted November 7, 2019 #17 Share Posted November 7, 2019 7 hours ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Piney Agreed which is why I consider Walker's proposal of occupying a cone body flawed. jmccr8 Most likely its just another long winded imaginative way to be controversial and get lots of people talking to him. Even if it worked, its not the classic definition of an afterlife. It's biotech. You know how Walker likes to exaggerate and deliberately confuse terms. The whale episode really put things into perspective there. It's just more of that shock value approach. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 7, 2019 Author #18 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 minute ago, psyche101 said: Most likely its just another long winded imaginative way to be controversial and get lots of people talking to him. Even if it worked, its not the classic definition of an afterlife. It's biotech. You know how Walker likes to exaggerate and deliberately confuse terms. The whale episode really put things into perspective there. It's just more of that shock value approach. Hi Psyche At least here he would be on topic and I think that to have his perspectives developed and countered an a specific place would do two things, first reduce distraction in other threads and second explore the relationships that he sees that tie his god/alien, special abilities, religious constructs etc.together and if they are dependent or inter-dependent on each other. I don't have the intention to ridicule or make judgments on him as a person I am just curious as about his self perception and it's relationship with reality or rather the known world as we know it. Walker is not the only person that has some interesting views but he is the most receptive to actually discussing his particular POV so that is why I have been trying to encourage him to bring that discussion to one thread where he will be on topic and his views constructively challenged and that may require some member support like redirecting a post in a thread to here for responses or helping not getting the thread shut down and see what develops. jmccr8 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted November 7, 2019 #19 Share Posted November 7, 2019 3 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: (BTW, there's a separate thread for this now, I've copied your quote to here from the other thread.) I am more than my identity though, since you don't dispute yet that my awareness of my memory and thoughts ceases when I die. Thus since there's something that does not live on and can't be copied, some would say the most important thing actually, we possess something else that is not just memory and thoughts. No you are not more than your memory (and i have experience of this, when my dad suffered catastrophic memory loss (transient global amnesia) going back to his teens. ALso when my parents in law had Alzheimers and slowly lost all sense of who the y were, or had been. Lose your memory and you lose your identity and sense of self. He forgot EVERYTHING that had happened in the last 40 years (Luckily withn 24 hours he slowly regained that memory Your memory and identity naturally ceases when you die UNLESS it is being recorded and stored "off line" or unless you have periodic uploads of your memory to another host for later retrieval In that case, when resurrected you begin at your latest upload only having "lost" the period of time between the uproar and death Just as if you had been in a coma or hibernation for thet period of time What do you think cannot be copied? What do you think we possess, apart from our memories and current thoughts? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted November 7, 2019 #20 Share Posted November 7, 2019 45 minutes ago, spartan max2 said: Many sci fi stories have approached this topic. My issue is that even if we could upload our conciousness, it would just be making a copy. So sure, the copied conciousness would have all your member and feel like you. But the actual you would still be dead. You would not be the one expierencing it. Your copied conciousness would be. You still die. It depends what you consider to be "you". I am only a functioning biochemical computer, processing past experiences and memories, and constructing new ones, while operating in,my current environment Take my memories, and install them in a new functioning processor (organic or artificial) and i remain "myself" Ensure i am in a cloned body of my original self and basically i am identical Divide me into 12 copies and for a short time i will exist as identical beings, all of which are myself. As each unit has different experiences each will diverge. So no, the "you" (which is entirely your sense of self or the I inside you) would NOT die. it would go on uninterrupted, possibly for millennia If you do not experience death, does it occur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 7, 2019 Author #21 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Mr Walker said: Your memory and identity naturally ceases when you die UNLESS it is being recorded and stored "off line" or unless you have periodic uploads of your memory to another host for later retrieval Hi Walker Thanks for joining us. If that were the case then one would need to show where and by who is this data collected and what is the purpose. I would also be interested in how it was stored if we are yet to create it with regards to those who passed before us. The most common theme in afterlife that I have seen is to one day be reunited so either the collection system predates the evolution of life or everyone has been lied to if we are yet to create it so there will be no seeing your relatives and loved ones which you have in past recounted having lived your father's and other historical people's lives. How does that work? jmccr8 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted November 7, 2019 #22 Share Posted November 7, 2019 44 minutes ago, psyche101 said: Most likely its just another long winded imaginative way to be controversial and get lots of people talking to him. Even if it worked, its not the classic definition of an afterlife. It's biotech. You know how Walker likes to exaggerate and deliberately confuse terms. The whale episode really put things into perspective there. It's just more of that shock value approach. gee Ive always considered that, in reality, the classic definition of after life is reliant on biotech (I dont believe in supernatural miracles I've always assumed that miracles are examples of advanced technology including bio tech ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted November 7, 2019 #23 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Walker Thanks for joining us. If that were the case then one would need to show where and by who is this data collected and what is the purpose. I would also be interested in how it was stored if we are yet to create it with regards to those who passed before us. The most common theme in afterlife that I have seen is to one day be reunited so either the collection system predates the evolution of life or everyone has been lied to if we are yet to create it so there will be no seeing your relatives and loved ones which you have in past recounted having lived your father's and other historical people's lives. How does that work? jmccr8 lol hadn't even noticed i was on a new thread I was just responding as i do to all the new posts which involved me Thought i was still arguing on an old thread Your post made me look up and see it was a new thread Not sure i understand the specifics of your questions My take An ancient race either by its own abilities or via advanced technology provides an internet of the mind which has existed for millenia This links all consciousnesses in the galaxy and can be accessed by any slef aware mind that has achieved gnosis or enlightenment, for communication and learning/education or entertainment As a part of this, the consciousnesses of all self aware beings (and possibly non self aware ones) are recorded and stored In a virtual library as archived "living" ie interactive, consciousnesses Thus you or I can do the following. Access a past consciousness on earth to study history Access the life of a deceased loved one to share it with them and spend time with them Acces the minds of living people and the cosmic consciousness itself Access the present and past consciousnesses of species/individuals from all over the galaxy and see their lives through their eyes I dont know the technology involved although it is not unimaginably superior to what humans will develop in the next century or two I do know what the experience is like of accessing it and interacting withit its a mind to mind thing not a physical experience and so, for me, it comes mainly as i sleep, although sometimes it happens while I am wide awake. Other people experience, and have written about it, in other ways. I will describe one example, which a reader can take or leave, which explain how this can be used My dad died unexpectedly in 2009. I wanted to find out more abut his youth and the time he was courting my mother so i accessed his archived consciousness while I was asleep I lived many hours of his life with him fromabout 1945 to 1950. That included going to dances with him on his motorbike and playing tennis with him plus a lot of talks about his beliefs, ideas, and ideals/hopes etc. I observed details and talked with him he didnt know he was dead and i didn't tel him I just interacted with his consciousness and learned a lot, and enjoyed spending time with him as a young man Later i checked many of the details, which i had never known, with my mother She confirmed them. I also went in real life to the country halls we had visited together for dances etc back in the forties The y were still almost exactly as the y were in my "dreams You know, maybe this was all just my imagination and lucid dreaming yet many details were confirmable and confirmed by my mother But any way, it was a wonderful and uplifting experience to have many more hours with my father and to get to know him in the years before i was born Apart for my wife i have never loved nor respected anyone more than my father and mother, and so this was quite special for me Edited November 7, 2019 by Mr Walker 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted November 7, 2019 Author #24 Share Posted November 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: lol hadn't even noticed i was on a new thread I was just responding as i do to all the new posts which involved me Thought i was still arguing on an old thread Your post made me look up and see it was a new thread Hi Walker Yeah neat eh I downloaded your consciousness into another thread. 8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: An ancient race either by its own abilities or via advanced technology provides an internet of the mind which has existed for millenia This links all consciousnesses in the galaxy and can be accessed by any slef aware mind that has achieved gnosis or enlightenment, for communication and learning/education or entertainment As a part of this, the consciousnesses of all self aware beings (and possibly non self aware ones) are recorded and stored In a virtual library as archived "living" ie interactive, consciousnesses Yes but that leaves us with the same problem that we have with the religious construct of afterlife, how do you show it's potential without evidence? 10 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: Thus you or I can do the following. Access a past consciousness on earth to study history Access the life of a deceased loved one to share it with them and spend time with them Acces the minds of living people and the cosmic consciousness itself Access the present and past consciousnesses of species/individuals from all over the galaxy and see their lives through their eyes I dont know the technology involved although it is not unimaginably superior to what humans will develop in the next century or two I do know what the experience is like of accessing it and interacting withit This is not something that I have experienced which is why I am questioning you. 12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: its a mind to mind thing not a physical experience and so, for me, it comes mainly as i sleep, although sometimes it happens while I am wide awake. Other people experience, and have written about it, in other ways. So if it happens in your sleep why would it not be anything more than lucid dreaming which is an activity that you pursue quite avidly? jmccr8 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted November 7, 2019 #25 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Hi Walker Yeah neat eh I downloaded your consciousness into another thread. Yes but that leaves us with the same problem that we have with the religious construct of afterlife, how do you show it's potential without evidence? This is not something that I have experienced which is why I am questioning you. So if it happens in your sleep why would it not be anything more than lucid dreaming which is an activity that you pursue quite avidly? jmccr8 See the rest of my post, added after the initial posting I observed and found out things i could not have known, from before my birth These were confirmed by my mother, by research, and by visiting the places we visited "together" back in the forties. In a way, I dont care if it was "real " or not. I was able to spend many interesting hours ( fully aware of what was happening ) with my deceased father. He could only be as he was back then, but he could interact with me and respond to my questions from his consciousness of the time ie he could describe his views feelings and thoughts on anything from the period It was like a fully interactive hologram where i was the only one alive and aware of the reality of the occasion, but everything else was real and detailed and accurately portrayed . Edited November 7, 2019 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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