Afterlife, digital copies or clones

[Mr Walker]

35 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

That is all nice but you are making subjective inferences that may never actualize for one reason or the other. I realize that you have a more comprehensive knowledge on fictional thinking that I see as a driver for many of your constructs and arguments and we still have not come to an agreement on the probability of cloning existing in the time frame that you have projected here and I would suggest you  problem will be similar with these claims of think and there it is. Words yet tangible evidence no.

jmccr8

That's why i asked you to do your own research and make your own conclusions 

However I havent made any inferences not already made by scientists in these fields  An expert   in a field can see where a line of current research and technology is likely to lead and where it will inevitably lead.

With your line of reasoning no o ne could ever see ahead into, or plan for the future  People would only accept what is current rather than what will happen in the next 10, 20 or 50 years 

Eg current technology and regulations in some countries means tha t in the next 10 years, in those countries, no  fossil fuel powered cars will be allowed to be made or sold  In others the target is 20 years 

5 years ago this would have seemed unbelievable Even today most people wouldn't know about it, or realise  it was happening 

quote 

In the Netherlands, new buses entering service from 2025 onward need to be zero-emission, as do new passenger vehicles sold from 2030 onward. In addition, the country is committed to realizing zero-emission city logistics by 2025.

Other European countries that have pledged to end the sale or registration of new ICE passenger cars in less than 10 years include Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Slovenia, and Sweden.

In the Netherlands, new buses entering service from 2025 onward need to be zero-emission, as do new passenger vehicles sold from 2030 onward. In addition, the country is committed to realizing zero-emission city logistics by 2025.

Other European countries that have pledged to end the sale or registration of new ICE passenger cars in less than 10 years include Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Slovenia, and Sweden.

https://thedriven.io/2020/11/12/the-countries-and-states-leading-the-phase-out-of-fossil-fuel-cars/#:~:text=France has a target to,of timeline and vehicles affected.

[Mr Walker]

41 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

The "Sensed Presence"

The sensed presence usually happens to individuals who have become isolated in an extreme or unusual environment, often when high levels of stress are involved. These individuals report a perception or feeling that another person is there to help them cope with a hazardous situation. The vividness of the presence can range from a vague feeling of being watched to a clearly perceived, seemingly flesh-and-blood entity such as Clooney’s character in Gravity. This entity might be a god, a spirit, an ancestor, or someone personally known to the observer. Sensed presences usually appear in environments with little variation in physical and social stimulation; low temperature is also a common ingredient.

 

Possible explanations for a sensed presence include the motion of boats, atmospheric or geomagnetic activity, and altered sensations and states of consciousness induced by changes in brain chemistry triggered by stress, lack of oxygen, monotonous stimulation, or a buildup of hormones. There is in fact exciting new evidence from a research group led by Olaf Blanke demonstrating that it is the precise stimulation of specific brain regions that tricks people into feeling the "presence" of a ghostly apparition.

 

Environmental psychologist Peter Suedfeld also thinks that what we do cognitively changes under these circumstances and may play a role. 

Suedfeld proposed that we normally spend most of our time attending to and processing external, ambient stimuli from the physical world surrounding us. However, persistent exposure to stimuli that we are evolutionarily unprepared to process, or a lack of change in our surroundings, may cause us to focus more within ourselves, which most of us are much less experienced at doing.

 

AND

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/psychiatrist-aliens-and-going-native

Niall Boyce, editor of The Lancet Psychiatry, noted that the reaction of Mack’s colleagues was decidedly negative, with many puzzled by the fact that someone they considered intelligent, affable, and so eminently reasonable could go down the proverbial rabbit hole. Boyce, however, has tried to understand Mack’s turn more sympathetically than critics, dubbing him “the psychiatrist who wanted to believe.” “The book [Abduction],” Boyce argues, “speaks of a man easily touched by others’ emotions-indeed, a man whose perception of others’ emotional sincerity led to a belief in the reality of the experiences they described.” Mack was, therefore, “wrong for the best of reasons, and with the best of intentions.” Mack’s tragic flaw then, according to Boyce, was his failure to effectively navigate the boundaries separating the sympathetic from the critical facets of the therapeutic relationship.²

Boyce is correct that Mack’s “going native” exposed the tension between, on the one hand, the healer’s desire and need to provide comfort and, on the other, the importance of providing a critical voice and expert counterweight. It could be argued that this tension has only grown more recently as clinicians’ methods have become more firmly tied to scientific data.

That said, the question of just how far “native”-and here I use the term adjectivally, synonymous with the term “indigenous”-one may acceptably go as a professional scholar, teacher, or counselor is hardly unique to psychiatry and psychotherapy. Similar to Mack, for instance, former Temple University Professor of History David Jacobs, after writing a well-received book on the history of the UFO phenomenon in the US,³ eventually came to the view that extraterrestrials were in fact kidnapping human beings as part of a plot to breed human-alien hybrids and became a hypnotherapist and advocate for self-identified abductees.⁴

The issue of how far a professional may legitimately go in allying and empathizing with his or her subjects extends well beyond UFOs and aliens. Sociologist Erich Goode, for instance, has chronicled prominent cases-controversially including his own-in which social scientists have had sexual relations with informants.⁵ And, anthropologists widely rejected the work of Carlos Castaneda, a PhD in anthropology, after he adopted and became a vocal advocate for a form of Yaqui Indian shamanism.⁶

In fact, especially over the past 2 decades, anthropologists have dedicated significant time and space debating the proper limits of “going native.” Ethnography’s laudable insistence on seeing the world through the eyes of informants has historically led anthropologists to require that researchers live within the communities being studied and to learn and adopt members’ lifestyles.⁷ Scholars, however, have warned that if taken too far, “engaged anthropology” can help perpetuate stereotypes and trivialize indigenous lifeways and may give the researcher the false impression that he has fully captured the authentic experience of the other.^8,9 Rather than attempting to know and represent some imaginary pristine, authentic way of life, critics suggest that anthropologists would be better served aspiring to sincerity-ie, acting in good faith to establish a rapport with their subjects while acknowledging their different respective positions.

Seen from the perspective of anthropology, it is possible to understand Mack’s instance of “going native” along lines that expand on the argument of Niall Boyce. It was not simply that Mack sympathized too deeply with his patients’ suffering. If we take him literally at his word, Mack’s well-intentioned desire to listen sincerely to his patients eventually led him to see in their experiences a form of lost authenticity, one he believed capable and worthy of capturing. His deeply held belief that the modern world was fraught with lethally destructive and self-destructive impulses that might be eradicated by redemptive extraterrestrial intelligences was one shared by a great many of those historically involved in the UFO and alien contact communities.¹⁰ His involvement with self-identifying alien abductees, therefore, was about more than the force of his professional concerns about his patients; it was also about the force of his political convictions-convictions he had in common with those he hoped to help.

 

The consensus is that they are not real they are not concerned with if you saw an alien, ghost or angel it is why did you think you did, bit of a difference there.

jmccr8

 

 

Ah, the 3rdman phenomenon

 Interesting   and again something ive done a bit of reading on.  

However, its not always  just one person  who sees that extra figure, leading them on and encouraging them to survive. Sometimes whole groups of people see it 

So, is it a real physical entity giving guidance support and hope,  or a mental construct ?

I cant say, but i have an open mind. 

To the second bit 

As i said, abductees seem to have a number of  common  psychological  characteristics 

I acknowledge the importance and the significance of these studies BUT, while the y can explain some experiences the y simply cant explain others where, for example, a voice heard by people is also recorded on a radio record 

The problem is where this is used to explain ALL cases, and to deny the reality  of genuine ones.  

Skeptics always look for a chance to deny, while those too ready to believe, always look for a chance to confirm. The middle road is the best one,  where every case is carefully examined and analysed 

There is no such consensus  among psychologist's  any more than among any group of humans  although they are a bit less likely  than other peole to believe in gods and angels etc. 

but you repeat the point i made  

Their job is to find the truth, and to provide help if it  is needed, not to make an arbitrary  judgement without evaluation.

The y are only concerned with whether you can (and do ) distinguish external reality from  your inner one. Thus, if you adopted  the  persona  of a super hero, and acted like it, but knew exactly what you were doing, and why,  and that it wasn't real,  then they would have no problem ,if your behaviour was not a threat to you or others   (they encounter a lot of sexual oddities which the y have to accept, whatever their own sexual values and practices )  

Once you have  proven you can determine external reality from  internal experience  they've done their job.

If you  cant prove you can, then the y will need to work with you, further. 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

The "Sensed Presence"

The sensed presence usually happens to individuals who have become isolated in an extreme or unusual environment, often when high levels of stress are involved. These individuals report a perception or feeling that another person is there to help them cope with a hazardous situation. The vividness of the presence can range from a vague feeling of being watched to a clearly perceived, seemingly flesh-and-blood entity such as Clooney’s character in Gravity. This entity might be a god, a spirit, an ancestor, or someone personally known to the observer. Sensed presences usually appear in environments with little variation in physical and social stimulation; low temperature is also a common ingredient.

 

Possible explanations for a sensed presence include the motion of boats, atmospheric or geomagnetic activity, and altered sensations and states of consciousness induced by changes in brain chemistry triggered by stress, lack of oxygen, monotonous stimulation, or a buildup of hormones. There is in fact exciting new evidence from a research group led by Olaf Blanke demonstrating that it is the precise stimulation of specific brain regions that tricks people into feeling the "presence" of a ghostly apparition.

 

Environmental psychologist Peter Suedfeld also thinks that what we do cognitively changes under these circumstances and may play a role. 

Suedfeld proposed that we normally spend most of our time attending to and processing external, ambient stimuli from the physical world surrounding us. However, persistent exposure to stimuli that we are evolutionarily unprepared to process, or a lack of change in our surroundings, may cause us to focus more within ourselves, which most of us are much less experienced at doing.

 

AND

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/psychiatrist-aliens-and-going-native

Niall Boyce, editor of The Lancet Psychiatry, noted that the reaction of Mack’s colleagues was decidedly negative, with many puzzled by the fact that someone they considered intelligent, affable, and so eminently reasonable could go down the proverbial rabbit hole. Boyce, however, has tried to understand Mack’s turn more sympathetically than critics, dubbing him “the psychiatrist who wanted to believe.” “The book [Abduction],” Boyce argues, “speaks of a man easily touched by others’ emotions-indeed, a man whose perception of others’ emotional sincerity led to a belief in the reality of the experiences they described.” Mack was, therefore, “wrong for the best of reasons, and with the best of intentions.” Mack’s tragic flaw then, according to Boyce, was his failure to effectively navigate the boundaries separating the sympathetic from the critical facets of the therapeutic relationship.²

Boyce is correct that Mack’s “going native” exposed the tension between, on the one hand, the healer’s desire and need to provide comfort and, on the other, the importance of providing a critical voice and expert counterweight. It could be argued that this tension has only grown more recently as clinicians’ methods have become more firmly tied to scientific data.

That said, the question of just how far “native”-and here I use the term adjectivally, synonymous with the term “indigenous”-one may acceptably go as a professional scholar, teacher, or counselor is hardly unique to psychiatry and psychotherapy. Similar to Mack, for instance, former Temple University Professor of History David Jacobs, after writing a well-received book on the history of the UFO phenomenon in the US,³ eventually came to the view that extraterrestrials were in fact kidnapping human beings as part of a plot to breed human-alien hybrids and became a hypnotherapist and advocate for self-identified abductees.⁴

The issue of how far a professional may legitimately go in allying and empathizing with his or her subjects extends well beyond UFOs and aliens. Sociologist Erich Goode, for instance, has chronicled prominent cases-controversially including his own-in which social scientists have had sexual relations with informants.⁵ And, anthropologists widely rejected the work of Carlos Castaneda, a PhD in anthropology, after he adopted and became a vocal advocate for a form of Yaqui Indian shamanism.⁶

In fact, especially over the past 2 decades, anthropologists have dedicated significant time and space debating the proper limits of “going native.” Ethnography’s laudable insistence on seeing the world through the eyes of informants has historically led anthropologists to require that researchers live within the communities being studied and to learn and adopt members’ lifestyles.⁷ Scholars, however, have warned that if taken too far, “engaged anthropology” can help perpetuate stereotypes and trivialize indigenous lifeways and may give the researcher the false impression that he has fully captured the authentic experience of the other.^8,9 Rather than attempting to know and represent some imaginary pristine, authentic way of life, critics suggest that anthropologists would be better served aspiring to sincerity-ie, acting in good faith to establish a rapport with their subjects while acknowledging their different respective positions.

Seen from the perspective of anthropology, it is possible to understand Mack’s instance of “going native” along lines that expand on the argument of Niall Boyce. It was not simply that Mack sympathized too deeply with his patients’ suffering. If we take him literally at his word, Mack’s well-intentioned desire to listen sincerely to his patients eventually led him to see in their experiences a form of lost authenticity, one he believed capable and worthy of capturing. His deeply held belief that the modern world was fraught with lethally destructive and self-destructive impulses that might be eradicated by redemptive extraterrestrial intelligences was one shared by a great many of those historically involved in the UFO and alien contact communities.¹⁰ His involvement with self-identifying alien abductees, therefore, was about more than the force of his professional concerns about his patients; it was also about the force of his political convictions-convictions he had in common with those he hoped to help.

 

The consensus is that they are not real they are not concerned with if you saw an alien, ghost or angel it is why did you think you did, bit of a difference there.

jmccr8

 

 

Omg, you have your fingers on the pulse. Walker is running game, probably not intentionally, but he knows next to nada about how the brain works. I am not gonna waste my time trying to offer him help, he won’t listen. and demand he is right with no background.  I wish him well though. Miss you. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Sherapy

[+Nuclear Wessel]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Omg, you have your fingers on the pulse. Walker is running game, probably not intentionally, but he knows next to about how the brain works. I am not gonna waste my time trying to offer him help, he won’t listen. I wish him well though.

Save your energy for something more productive.  Walker's as slippery as they come, and simply cannot be wrong. 

[+Sherapy]

3 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Save your energy for something more productive.  Walker's as slippery as they come, and simply cannot be wrong. 

Exactly. I am done with him. Not in malice just my waste of time. I no longer want to be involved in drama, Yet, I wish him well.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Sherapy

[eight bits]

11 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

The "Sensed Presence"

That was a really interesting post, Jay.

When I saw the headline, I thought you might have been going for a somewhat different, but related phenomenon associated with the anthropologist-psychologist Tanya Luhrmann of Stanford.

Her emphasis is on "imagined dialog" and other exercises which involve consciously and voluntarily "interacting" with a non-existent "other." It works fine even if you know (as is typical) that you're "making up" the other party to the "conversation." No stress need be involved (as opposed to when people in trouble spontaneously perceive a "helper" who gives them advice or even "physically" intervenes in an emergency situation ... or so it seems to the person who survives the emergency, e.g. "My helper pulled me out of the way of the oncoming train" and such).

Luhrmann's version is a teachable-learnable skill (perhaps of some relevance to Walker's report of trying to culivate his mind up from the age of three), and the exercises are pretty easy (talking to yourself, which a lot of people do anyway, and developing "sense memory," paying attention to your surroundings, and then trying to recall the sensations in detail with your eyes closed, etc.). Although the usual upshot is a convincing feeling that somebody else is there even though you can't perceive them, some people (including Luhrmann herself) report episodic proper hallucinations - realistically seeing other people who aren't really there, hearing them, or whatever sensory modality.

Her subjects in recent years are just ordinary students in an undergraduate psychology class, for them it's another series of lab assignments. In the past, she's used subjects who invest heavily in the exercises, modern UK witches and "pentecostal" style American Christians. But casual or "full-time," people readily learn the skill and many trip balls.

I think a lot of people underestimate how easy it is to fall into "altered states of consiousness," or wrongly associate that with better living through chemistry, as if it were some special province of "hippies, weirdoes and drug addicts." Another example of accessible altered consciousness (which may be used in scientology - but could also be part of a children's game of seeing things in mirrors) is the strange face illusion studied by Giovanni Caputo (both searchable terms).

Going native

As your linked text indicates, this occurs in a variety of fields, alien abductions simply being one among many. Uncle Carl noticed it, too, among his ordinary analysands. And of course there's the culture-defining example, Paul of Tarsus, who went from persecutor to preacher, and launched what is now the world's most prevalent religion.

I think it is largely one phenomenon despite the variety of domains involved (then again I am often persuaded by Carl). The searchable term for that is enantiodromia.

I know, you only brought it up to establish that therapists are less open-minded than another poster claims, and need to be in order to function effectively as professional helpers. Still, it's an interesting way to establish that.

Edited November 23, 2020 by eight bits

[jmccr8]

45 minutes ago, eight bits said:

That was a really interesting post, Jay.

When I saw the headline, I thought you might have been going for a somewhat different, but related phenomenon associated with the anthropologist-psychologist Tanya Luhrmann of Stanford.

Her emphasis is on "imagined dialog" and other exercises which involve consciously and voluntarily "interacting" with a non-existent "other." It works fine even if you know (as is typical) that you're "making up" the other party to the "conversation." No stress need be involved (as opposed to when people in trouble spontaneously perceive a "helper" who gives them advice or even "physically" intervenes in an emergency situation ... or so it seems to the person who survives the emergency, e.g. "My helper pulled me out of the way of the oncoming train" and such).

Luhrmann's version is a teachable-learnable skill (perhaps of some relevance to Walker's report of trying to culivate his mind up from the age of three), and the exercises are pretty easy (talking to yourself, which a lot of people do anyway, and developing "sense memory," paying attention to your surroundings, and then trying to recall the sensations in detail with your eyes closed, etc.). Although the usual upshot is a convincing feeling that somebody else is there even though you can't perceive them, some people (including Luhrmann herself) report episodic proper hallucinations - realistically seeing other people who aren't really there, hearing them, or whatever sensory modality.

Her subjects in recent years are just ordinary students in an undergraduate psychology class, for them it's another series of lab assignments. In the past, she's used subjects who invest heavily in the exercises, modern UK witches and "pentecostal" style American Christians. But casual or "full-time," people readily learn the skill and many trip balls.

I think a lot of people underestimate how easy it is to fall into "altered states of consiousness," or wrongly associate that with better living through chemistry, as if it were some special province of "hippies, weirdoes and drug addicts." Another example of accessible altered consciousness (which may be used in scientology - but could also be part of a children's game of seeing things in mirrors) is the strange face illusion studied by Giovanni Caputo (both searchable terms).

Going native

As your linked text indicates, this occurs in a variety of fields, alien abductions simply being one among many. Uncle Carl noticed it, too, among his ordinary analysands. And of course there's the culture-defining example, Paul of Tarsus, who went from persecutor to preacher, and launched what is now the world's most prevalent religion.

I think it is largely one phenomenon despite the variety of domains involved (then again I am often persuaded by Carl). The searchable term for that is enantiodromia.

I know, you only brought it up to establish that therapists are less open-minded than another poster claims, and need to be in order to function effectively as professional helpers. Still, it's an interesting way to establish that.

Hi Eight Bits

Thanks for the added context and for understanding my intent.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Omg, you have your fingers on the pulse. Walker is running game, probably not intentionally, but he knows next to nada about how the brain works. I am not gonna waste my time trying to offer him help, he won’t listen. and demand he is right with no background.  I wish him well though. Miss you. 

Hi Sherapy

Good to see you again and to know you are okay.Thanks.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

17 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Omg, you have your fingers on the pulse. Walker is running game, probably not intentionally, but he knows next to nada about how the brain works. I am not gonna waste my time trying to offer him help, he won’t listen. and demand he is right with no background.  I wish him well though. Miss you. 

Nice to have you back Sherapy but, as usual,  you know nothing about me 

The 3rd (sometimes fourth) man, phenomenon, Is well known and i have read a lot about it 

Its interesting.

It often is (or seems to be)  a psychological response to extreme environments and pressure to survive but some examples seem to indicate  that the presence is real  eg several members  of a party all see someone leading them to safety, when all the actual members of the party are accounted for . Some people want and need to deny this is possible, and so assume that all cases are a form of hallucination  

Ps short of a neurologist or professional psychologist i know as much about human cognition as anyone 

and i dont need any help  That is a construct of me you  have made to justify your own disbelief. 

 

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112746464#:~:text=As Geiger explains%2C the Third,%2C" Geiger tells Guy Raz.

The following gives a scientific explanation of how(possibly) several men could all see the same figure leading them on

quote

Ernest Shackleton’s epic tale of survival after the sinking of his ship the Endurance in Antarctic waters is well known, but less known is what he and two of his companions experienced after they made their way by open boat, above, to South Georgia Island and trekked across to a whaling station to find salvation. Each of the three felt the presence of someone with them: “During that long and racking march of thirty-six hours over the unnamed mountains and glaciers of South Georgia,” wrote Shackleton in his memoir, “it seemed to me often that we were four, not three.”

The effect is now well documented, though it wasn’t until Shackleton wrote about it that others were forthcoming. Despite the frequency of encounters, many people, actually even Shackleton himself, seemed hesitant to talk about their experiences-understandably so, given they were often deeply personal and sounded a little crazy.  The visions that appeared to people were both men and women, and sometimes even a particular person, like a dead spouse, parent, or friend.  These visions often spoke to the person in distress, providing comfort, advice, or simply company, and in most cases the presence disappeared again, just before help arrived. Whereas most hallucinations disorient and alarm, these visions were of benevolent beings who provided comfort and aid when people needed it most.

 

https://www.adventure-journal.com/2020/09/finding-the-third-man-in-the-lab/

 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wakeupcall/2015/07/the-third-man-phenomena/

Edited November 24, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

17 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Save your energy for something more productive.  Walker's as slippery as they come, and simply cannot be wrong. 

This is not a case of right and wrong.

it is a case of possibilities and probabilities. 

There may be a purely scientific cause for all 3rdman experiences.

  However  equally , there may not.

Basically it goes to what you are prepared to believe is possible,  so if you don't believe in the presence of physical guardian angels, you will accept the scientific explanations for all cases 

If you believe in, or know, that guardian angels are/can be  real, you will look at each case more carefully. 

I am not slippery except in the sense that i dont do absolutes in anything. There is always more than one possibility 

I'll give you  that  criticism, because it also annoys the heck out of my wife, who sees almost everything in absolutes of black /white or right /wrong. 

I see my attitude as a strength, which enables me to see  more possibilities, but many people seem to need the comfort of certainty. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

12 hours ago, eight bits said:

That was a really interesting post, Jay.

When I saw the headline, I thought you might have been going for a somewhat different, but related phenomenon associated with the anthropologist-psychologist Tanya Luhrmann of Stanford.

Her emphasis is on "imagined dialog" and other exercises which involve consciously and voluntarily "interacting" with a non-existent "other." It works fine even if you know (as is typical) that you're "making up" the other party to the "conversation." No stress need be involved (as opposed to when people in trouble spontaneously perceive a "helper" who gives them advice or even "physically" intervenes in an emergency situation ... or so it seems to the person who survives the emergency, e.g. "My helper pulled me out of the way of the oncoming train" and such).

Luhrmann's version is a teachable-learnable skill (perhaps of some relevance to Walker's report of trying to culivate his mind up from the age of three), and the exercises are pretty easy (talking to yourself, which a lot of people do anyway, and developing "sense memory," paying attention to your surroundings, and then trying to recall the sensations in detail with your eyes closed, etc.). Although the usual upshot is a convincing feeling that somebody else is there even though you can't perceive them, some people (including Luhrmann herself) report episodic proper hallucinations - realistically seeing other people who aren't really there, hearing them, or whatever sensory modality.

Her subjects in recent years are just ordinary students in an undergraduate psychology class, for them it's another series of lab assignments. In the past, she's used subjects who invest heavily in the exercises, modern UK witches and "pentecostal" style American Christians. But casual or "full-time," people readily learn the skill and many trip balls.

I think a lot of people underestimate how easy it is to fall into "altered states of consiousness," or wrongly associate that with better living through chemistry, as if it were some special province of "hippies, weirdoes and drug addicts." Another example of accessible altered consciousness (which may be used in scientology - but could also be part of a children's game of seeing things in mirrors) is the strange face illusion studied by Giovanni Caputo (both searchable terms).

Going native

As your linked text indicates, this occurs in a variety of fields, alien abductions simply being one among many. Uncle Carl noticed it, too, among his ordinary analysands. And of course there's the culture-defining example, Paul of Tarsus, who went from persecutor to preacher, and launched what is now the world's most prevalent religion.

I think it is largely one phenomenon despite the variety of domains involved (then again I am often persuaded by Carl). The searchable term for that is enantiodromia.

I know, you only brought it up to establish that therapists are less open-minded than another poster claims, and need to be in order to function effectively as professional helpers. Still, it's an interesting way to establish that.

sounds like the abilty to split the mind, and thus  your dialogue, into several different parts My mother taught me how to do this and to use each part to argue in  a different form eg logically intuitively emotionally etc 

She also taught me to insert different "personas' into an inner argument, with each presenting   a different or alternative pov on an issue  by bringing with them different values, priorities, ethics ot moralities 

In my case i was quite aware there was only one real person/mind ie me  and  (perhaps because i cant visualise,)  i never saw or hallucinated these characters.  The y stayed in compartments in my mind  or remained within one "story box."

It was a bit like authoring a novel with many characters, where the author has to have each character think, speak, and act, in character, even though the y are ALL the products of his/.her mind  Thus the mind and behaviour of a serial killer exists (in the authors mind)  along side the mind and behaviour of the detective trying to catch him, and that of  the next potential victim.

  Or the mind of a British soldier in the Indian wars of the Raj must exist alongside   the mind of a native Sepoy, and that  of a European woman and an Indian woman of the 1800s

gee, Bernard Cornwell was good at that   

Edited November 24, 2020 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Nice to have you back Sherapy but, as usual,  you know nothing about me 

The 3rd (sometimes fourth) man, phenomenon, Is well known and i have read a lot about it 

Its interesting.

It often is (or seems to be)  a psychological response to extreme environments and pressure to survive but some examples seem to indicate  that the presence is real  eg several members  of a party all see someone leading them to safety, when all the actual members of the party are accounted for . Some people want and need to deny this is possible, and so assume that all cases are a form of hallucination  

Ps short of a neurologist or professional psychologist i know as much about human cognition as anyone 

and i dont need any help  That is a construct of me you  have made to justify your own disbelief. 

 

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112746464#:~:text=As Geiger explains%2C the Third,%2C" Geiger tells Guy Raz.

The following gives a scientific explanation of how(possibly) several men could all see the same figure leading them on

quote

Ernest Shackleton’s epic tale of survival after the sinking of his ship the Endurance in Antarctic waters is well known, but less known is what he and two of his companions experienced after they made their way by open boat, above, to South Georgia Island and trekked across to a whaling station to find salvation. Each of the three felt the presence of someone with them: “During that long and racking march of thirty-six hours over the unnamed mountains and glaciers of South Georgia,” wrote Shackleton in his memoir, “it seemed to me often that we were four, not three.”

The effect is now well documented, though it wasn’t until Shackleton wrote about it that others were forthcoming. Despite the frequency of encounters, many people, actually even Shackleton himself, seemed hesitant to talk about their experiences-understandably so, given they were often deeply personal and sounded a little crazy.  The visions that appeared to people were both men and women, and sometimes even a particular person, like a dead spouse, parent, or friend.  These visions often spoke to the person in distress, providing comfort, advice, or simply company, and in most cases the presence disappeared again, just before help arrived. Whereas most hallucinations disorient and alarm, these visions were of benevolent beings who provided comfort and aid when people needed it most.

 

https://www.adventure-journal.com/2020/09/finding-the-third-man-in-the-lab/

 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wakeupcall/2015/07/the-third-man-phenomena/

All the best to you and your wife. 

[+Sherapy]

14 hours ago, eight bits said:

That was a really interesting post, Jay.

When I saw the headline, I thought you might have been going for a somewhat different, but related phenomenon associated with the anthropologist-psychologist Tanya Luhrmann of Stanford.

Her emphasis is on "imagined dialog" and other exercises which involve consciously and voluntarily "interacting" with a non-existent "other." It works fine even if you know (as is typical) that you're "making up" the other party to the "conversation." No stress need be involved (as opposed to when people in trouble spontaneously perceive a "helper" who gives them advice or even "physically" intervenes in an emergency situation ... or so it seems to the person who survives the emergency, e.g. "My helper pulled me out of the way of the oncoming train" and such).

Luhrmann's version is a teachable-learnable skill (perhaps of some relevance to Walker's report of trying to culivate his mind up from the age of three), and the exercises are pretty easy (talking to yourself, which a lot of people do anyway, and developing "sense memory," paying attention to your surroundings, and then trying to recall the sensations in detail with your eyes closed, etc.). Although the usual upshot is a convincing feeling that somebody else is there even though you can't perceive them, some people (including Luhrmann herself) report episodic proper hallucinations - realistically seeing other people who aren't really there, hearing them, or whatever sensory modality.

Her subjects in recent years are just ordinary students in an undergraduate psychology class, for them it's another series of lab assignments. In the past, she's used subjects who invest heavily in the exercises, modern UK witches and "pentecostal" style American Christians. But casual or "full-time," people readily learn the skill and many trip balls.

I think a lot of people underestimate how easy it is to fall into "altered states of consiousness," or wrongly associate that with better living through chemistry, as if it were some special province of "hippies, weirdoes and drug addicts." Another example of accessible altered consciousness (which may be used in scientology - but could also be part of a children's game of seeing things in mirrors) is the strange face illusion studied by Giovanni Caputo (both searchable terms).

Going native

As your linked text indicates, this occurs in a variety of fields, alien abductions simply being one among many. Uncle Carl noticed it, too, among his ordinary analysands. And of course there's the culture-defining example, Paul of Tarsus, who went from persecutor to preacher, and launched what is now the world's most prevalent religion.

I think it is largely one phenomenon despite the variety of domains involved (then again I am often persuaded by Carl). The searchable term for that is enantiodromia.

I know, you only brought it up to establish that therapists are less open-minded than another poster claims, and need to be in order to function effectively as professional helpers. Still, it's an interesting way to establish that.

Very interesting read Paul. Hope life finds you well. considering...Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. 

[jmccr8]

On 11/23/2020 at 6:12 PM, Mr Walker said:

There is always more than one possibility 

Hi Walker

Just had a thought, how would you react if one or more of your clones commited suicide because their experiences were different than yours?

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

On 12/3/2020 at 12:59 AM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Just had a thought, how would you react if one or more of your clones commited suicide because their experiences were different than yours?

jmccr8

sad.

Suicide is always sad 

BUT because they   would probably have my genes, i doubt the y would ever do so.

I have long alleles which only about  13% of the population has.

it makes us almost immune from  depression or suicide 

quote

The gene, which comes in two forms, or alleles, can either protect people from depression or make them more vulnerable, researchers report today in the journal Science.

In the study, people who experienced job loss, death in the family, abuse or other traumas were much more likely to develop depression if they possessed two copies of the short allele. Those with two copies of the long allele (pronounced uh-LEEL) were able to withstand such events without becoming depressed.

''No matter how many stressful events they had in a five-year period, they were no more likely to become depressed than people who had no stressful events at all,'' 

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/18/us/gene-is-linked-to-susceptibility-to-depression.html#:~:text=In the study%2C people who,such events without becoming depressed. 

Also if my mind was cloned ,so would  my learned abilty to regulate emotional responses be replicated .

I never feel sad unless i think it is appropriated to do so.  

So a clone of my mind would also not feel those negative emotions, unless it wanted/chose to. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

sad.

Suicide is always sad 

BUT because they   would probably have my genes, i doubt the y would ever do so.

Hi Walker

I expect that the cloning that could occur during first trials which would be closer to our current time frame mind transfer will not be available so your self taught education and 70 yrs of experience may not be available to develop in the same manner as they will not grow up under the same conditions you did. 3d printing a body is still some time away so they would likely be created through human embryos and have to grow up like a regular child and would not grow up under the same conditions that you did,parents , siblings, friends, etc. I am not sure that you can claim that they will be like you if they are raised under different conditions and as we earlier discussed that at present clones are not identical and that leaves a lot of doubt in my mind.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

On 12/5/2020 at 12:12 AM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I expect that the cloning that could occur during first trials which would be closer to our current time frame mind transfer will not be available so your self taught education and 70 yrs of experience may not be available to develop in the same manner as they will not grow up under the same conditions you did. 3d printing a body is still some time away so they would likely be created through human embryos and have to grow up like a regular child and would not grow up under the same conditions that you did,parents , siblings, friends, etc. I am not sure that you can claim that they will be like you if they are raised under different conditions and as we earlier discussed that at present clones are not identical and that leaves a lot of doubt in my mind.

jmccr8

If their genes were mine then they would also be protected from  depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation 

Its true that socialisation would play a part, if mind transfer wasn't  possible, but i am not interested in body cloning without cloning of the mind 

I would not be prepared to push my mind over the top of an already existing mind, although it might be possible to share minds in the same body 

[jmccr8]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:39 PM, Mr Walker said:

I would not be prepared to push my mind over the top of an already existing mind, although it might be possible to share minds in the same body 

Hi Walker

Have been binge watching series and am just watching "Travellers" and it is about downloading consciousness into people that are going to die in the past just before their death and take over their identity and lives, parents, wives and children included. It's an interesting premise and fortunately scriptwriters gloss over the scientific realities and allow time travel but only of the consciousness.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Have been binge watching series and am just watching "Travellers" and it is about downloading consciousness into people that are going to die in the past just before their death and take over their identity and lives, parents, wives and children included. It's an interesting premise and fortunately scriptwriters gloss over the scientific realities and allow time travel but only of the consciousness.

jmccr8

yes watched the whole lot a few years back  Started well, but they made a hash of it in the end (more the time traveling thing than the  importation of consciousness into someone about to die)  Continuum was perhaps a better series. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

yes watched the whole lot a few years back  Started well, but they made a hash of it in the end (more the time traveling thing than the  importation of consciousness into someone about to die)  Continuum was perhaps a better series. 

Hi Walker

Yes I finished the first season and it was failing for me because you never see the characters from the future in the future and in their own bodies or circumstance but thought the first couple posed some interesting situations. 

I like "The Expanse" as a good sci-fi and finally watched "Game of Thrones" which I enjoyed as fantasy.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

19 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Yes I finished the first season and it was failing for me because you never see the characters from the future in the future and in their own bodies or circumstance but thought the first couple posed some interesting situations. 

I like "The Expanse" as a good sci-fi and finally watched "Game of Thrones" which I enjoyed as fantasy.

jmccr8

Never really got into "the expanse"  but enjoyed "Killjoys "  about bounty hunters  and another series (Dark matter ) about these people who wake up on a space craft with no memory of who they are.  

[+Sherapy]

On 11/23/2020 at 4:58 AM, eight bits said:

That was a really interesting post, Jay.

When I saw the headline, I thought you might have been going for a somewhat different, but related phenomenon associated with the anthropologist-psychologist Tanya Luhrmann of Stanford.

Her emphasis is on "imagined dialog" and other exercises which involve consciously and voluntarily "interacting" with a non-existent "other." It works fine even if you know (as is typical) that you're "making up" the other party to the "conversation." No stress need be involved (as opposed to when people in trouble spontaneously perceive a "helper" who gives them advice or even "physically" intervenes in an emergency situation ... or so it seems to the person who survives the emergency, e.g. "My helper pulled me out of the way of the oncoming train" and such).

Luhrmann's version is a teachable-learnable skill (perhaps of some relevance to Walker's report of trying to culivate his mind up from the age of three), and the exercises are pretty easy (talking to yourself, which a lot of people do anyway, and developing "sense memory," paying attention to your surroundings, and then trying to recall the sensations in detail with your eyes closed, etc.). Although the usual upshot is a convincing feeling that somebody else is there even though you can't perceive them, some people (including Luhrmann herself) report episodic proper hallucinations - realistically seeing other people who aren't really there, hearing them, or whatever sensory modality.

Her subjects in recent years are just ordinary students in an undergraduate psychology class, for them it's another series of lab assignments. In the past, she's used subjects who invest heavily in the exercises, modern UK witches and "pentecostal" style American Christians. But casual or "full-time," people readily learn the skill and many trip balls.

I think a lot of people underestimate how easy it is to fall into "altered states of consiousness," or wrongly associate that with better living through chemistry, as if it were some special province of "hippies, weirdoes and drug addicts." Another example of accessible altered consciousness (which may be used in scientology - but could also be part of a children's game of seeing things in mirrors) is the strange face illusion studied by Giovanni Caputo (both searchable terms).

Going native

As your linked text indicates, this occurs in a variety of fields, alien abductions simply being one among many. Uncle Carl noticed it, too, among his ordinary analysands. And of course there's the culture-defining example, Paul of Tarsus, who went from persecutor to preacher, and launched what is now the world's most prevalent religion.

I think it is largely one phenomenon despite the variety of domains involved (then again I am often persuaded by Carl). The searchable term for that is enantiodromia.

I know, you only brought it up to establish that therapists are less open-minded than another poster claims, and need to be in order to function effectively as professional helpers. Still, it's an interesting way to establish that.

 The Neurologist/Psychiatrist  I work for told me recently that the brain on stress overload can and does cause a psychotic split, it sounds horrible but, in reality it is just having stress beyond the capacity to cope, when I was with Helen as a caregiver she had wet brain, borderline personality disorder which led to her to repeatedly threatening my life with severe violent episodes, then throw in a car accident where I was rear ended at a dead stop the driver barreled into me at 55 miles an hour ( trauma) so between that and the sheer terror I felt for my life due to Helen’s illness ( another trauma )it caused stress to the point I had what I call a Zen break through, where I hallucinated seeing the true nature of negative/ positive polarities, at this point I knew I was beyond my capacity to cope and got help immediately, stress management therapy did the job. If the stress is not addressed it can lead to life long  grandiose delusions. Dr. Cee Cee told me, the question a Psychiatrist asks to determine how far down the rabbit hole one was is did I think the experience was false and made up or did I believe the hallucination actually happened I said I knew it was not real but a figment of my mind. It is that simple. 
 

Caregivers in particular are prone to this due to the stress and compassion fatigue of the job if they do not practice self care. That is why self care and stress management skills are invaluable. 

Woo is just that wooville and the key Is to demonstrate one gets the difference. An interesting  aside, my two cents is this is what happened to Jung after his split from Freud. The difference is Jung pulled himself out of it and left us dream therapy used in psychoanalysis to get a person through. 
 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Sherapy

[eight bits]

4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

An interesting  aside, my two cents is this is what happened to Jung after his split from Freud. The difference is Jung pulled himself out of it and left us dream therapy used in psychoanalysis to get a person through. 

What exactly happened to Jung is a lively controversy. In part, I think, that's because the legacy of Jung is dominated by the therapeutic analyst community, and they resist the idea that the Founder was ever insane. Their position is unfathomable to me, since the Wounded Healer is one of the great archetypes, archetypes being a foundation of Jungian thought, and Jung did recover - a success story. Why is success a bad thing?

My personal sense of the history is that Jung suffered a psychotic break or acute schizophrenia (following R.D. Laing's terminology). Maybe it was only some related condition, but the pattern of symptoms is there: sudden onset, profound impairment including delusion and hallucination, but also spontaneous recovery (very unlike the usual chronic schizophrenia). There's a tricky part: the victims have a hard time caring for themselves during the crisis, and that's the danger. You have to survive long enough for the spontaneous recovery to kick in.

One thing I noticed about your story (the thank you for sharing goes without saying):

4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I had what I call a Zen break through

Which sounds (correct me if I'm misinterpreting) that in retrospect, you look back on the episode as having had positive aspects for your life going forward from there. Jung believed he learned a great deal from his suffering that informed his later work, and R.D Laing had a patient who consented to publishing a non-anonymized case history. The patient was an artist who also saw positive gains from the experience (even though he was institutionalized for weeks-to-months).

Just in closing, it is also interesting that many of the reports about spontaneous emergence of "special insight"

4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I hallucinated seeing the true nature of negative/ positive polarities,

occur at the polar opposite of breaking-point stress, that is, relaxation after concentrated effort, or even what didn't seem like "effort" (e.g. psychiatrist Raymond Bucke's "cosmic consciousness" episode, the one that inspired his famous book of the same name, occurred while he was riding in a cab after a pleasant evening with friends). My own experience happened after a nighttime run on the beach. I finished, was cooling down, breathing normally, feeling pretty good, looked up at the moon in the dark cloudless sky and BAM ...

Typically, the reported relaxation ones seem to last for relatively few minutes rather than being part of something that goes on for months.

Edited December 15, 2020 by eight bits

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, eight bits said:

What exactly happened to Jung is a lively controversy. In part, I think, that's because the legacy of Jung is dominated by the therapeutic analyst community, and they resist the idea that the Founder was ever insane. Their position is unfathomable to me, since the Wounded Healer is one of the great archetypes, archetypes being a foundation of Jungian thought, and Jung did recover - a success story. Why is success a bad thing?

My personal sense of the history is that Jung suffered a psychotic break or acute schizophrenia (following R.D. Laing's terminology). Maybe it was only some related condition, but the pattern of symptoms is there: sudden onset, profound impairment including delusion and hallucination, but also spontaneous recovery (very unlike the usual chronic schizophrenia). There's a tricky part: the victims have a hard time caring for themselves during the crisis, and that's the danger. You have to survive long enough for the spontaneous recovery to kick in.

One thing I noticed about your story (the thank you for sharing goes without saying):

Which sounds (correct me if I'm misinterpreting) that in retrospect, you look back on the episode as having had positive aspects for your life going forward from there. Jung believed he learned a great deal from his suffering that informed his later work, and R.D Laing had a patient who consented to publishing a non-anonymized case history. The patient was an artist who also saw positive gains from the experience (even though he was institutionalized for weeks-to-months).

Just in closing, it is also interesting that many of the reports about spontaneous emergence of "special insight"

occur at the polar opposite of breaking-point stress, that is, relaxation after concentrated effort, or even what didn't seem like "effort" (e.g. psychiatrist Raymond Bucke's "cosmic consciousness" episode, the one that inspired his famous book of the same name, occurred while he was riding in a cab after a pleasant evening with friends). My own experience happened after a nighttime run on the beach. I finished, was cooling down, breathing normally, feeling pretty good, looked up at the moon in the dark cloudless sky and BAM ...

Typically, the reported relaxation ones seem to last for relatively few minutes rather than being part of something that goes on for months.

8 hours ago, eight bits said:

What exactly happened to Jung is a lively controversy. In part, I think, that's because the legacy of Jung is dominated by the therapeutic analyst community, and they resist the idea that the Founder was ever insane. Their position is unfathomable to me, since the Wounded Healer is one of the great archetypes, archetypes being a foundation of Jungian thought, and Jung did recover - a success story. Why is success a bad thing?

My personal sense of the history is that Jung suffered a psychotic break or acute schizophrenia (following R.D. Laing's terminology). Maybe it was only some related condition, but the pattern of symptoms is there: sudden onset, profound impairment including delusion and hallucination, but also spontaneous recovery (very unlike the usual chronic schizophrenia). There's a tricky part: the victims have a hard time caring for themselves during the crisis, and that's the danger. You have to survive long enough for the spontaneous recovery to kick in.

One thing I noticed about your story (the thank you for sharing goes without saying):

Which sounds (correct me if I'm misinterpreting) that in retrospect, you look back on the episode as having had positive aspects for your life going forward from there. Jung believed he learned a great deal from his suffering that informed his later work, and R.D Laing had a patient who consented to publishing a non-anonymized case history. The patient was an artist who also saw positive gains from the experience (even though he was institutionalized for weeks-to-months).

Just in closing, it is also interesting that many of the reports about spontaneous emergence of "special insight"

occur at the polar opposite of breaking-point stress, that is, relaxation after concentrated effort, or even what didn't seem like "effort" (e.g. psychiatrist Raymond Bucke's "cosmic consciousness" episode, the one that inspired his famous book of the same name, occurred while he was riding in a cab after a pleasant evening with friends). My own experience happened after a nighttime run on the beach. I finished, was cooling down, breathing normally, feeling pretty good, looked up at the moon in the dark cloudless sky and BAM ...

Typically, the reported relaxation ones seem to last for relatively few minutes rather than being part of something that goes on for months.

Dr. Cee Cee and my personal therapist agree empathically with you that Jung is an incredible story of what is possible with help and indeed some moments are spontaneous. And, I would say the same in my own suffering (not just Helen), but my abusive childhood. I have learned so much and grown. 
 

Love: “Why is success such a bad thing?”

No wiser words have been spoken, Paul. 

The insight part for me has been nothing but positive in application, if I was going on a hunch I would say the same probably applies for you. 

Your moment sounds like what happened to Eckhart Tolle. 
 

Thank you for sharing always a delight to read your posts. 

 

[quillius]

44 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

what a pleasant poster you are!

I agree, I enjoy Eight bits posts very much.....also Liquid Gardens.....articulates so well.

I tend to mainly just read their posts rather than engage in debate/conversation.....basically If I cannot add value then I stay silent and try and learn  

too many posters see/treat the forum as a competition...it simply seems to be about winning an argument/debate....which gets tedious