Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

Afterlife, digital copies or clones


jmccr8

Recommended Posts

54 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Thank you, I knew I could ask you and get a honest reply. 

You and I do tend to speak our minds about each other to each other. 

I prefer anyone to take up their thoughts and issues about me and my husband with me personally. 

And, I know I can count on you for this. :wub:

Hi Sherapy

Walker is good that way which is why I find him interesting to talk with as I think he have good basic values no matter how he thinks they developed. I think that if another member is suggesting ill will to another member as a means of enforcement or detriment and brings it up here should stand accountable for what they have said or should have never said it.

I would like to see people of different perspective share why they see what they see and find a fair representation here, and it bothers me that some are resistant and abrasive to others for getting involved and having an adventure of learning. Just because my conclusion is god is our potential because it is ours doesn't mean I am close minded to what potential is but as a man with a critical mind I need to see how did that conclusion came to be for that person and understand that the questions can be difficult. With another member that talks about what they would/could/will do my experience with guys that actually do those things don't talk about it much so it raises signals with me about intent, you know the old saying keep your enemies close and your friends closer it is an eye that never sleeps.

jmccr8

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The only possibility I see is a full virtual reality (brain in a jar) or full body cybernetics. That's all I've got for now. 

Hi Xeno

I was thinking on this some and when one thinks about how people are affected by the lost of limbs and what coaching needed for them to want to participate in life although differently makes me wonder about a mind that has been in a body that failed them and are put into an genetically unaltered clone body that they would fear going through the same medical problems and the mental wear that may have on not knowing the body is prone to genetic disadvantages.

When my cousin got fried doing a hot tie in and took 100k volts it blew his ear off but before they let my uncle see him he had to have counceling as to how to deal with how Rene looked as he was so bloated he looked like he weighed 400 lbs instead of his svelte 175 so it is not one individuals experience as the cloning would affect the perceptions of everyone that they knew that knew. Granted I do look at some aspects that are not readily discussed but don't dismiss them because they are not brought up or discussed.

jmccr8

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Everything needs to get it's oil changed and in my book the more the better. If it is a non-humanoid body then it does not fit the known description of what we would call intelligent in the same sense that we perceive our intelligence. If inter- terrestrial culture had been living in synthetic bodies for centuries or thousands of years then they would have lost much of what we perceive of what a human is and may have different but not right/same as ours as a social consciousness. 

It is an invasion of self without consent no different than sexual abuses

Yes and that is due to your environment and you suppressing an aspect of yourself rather than refine it and for me that is not a problem just interested in why

So you can support this with biblical and scholastic documentation the please do.:tu:

Well that's easy to say but how about showing something to support this comparison as I haven't seen any serious study that would.

jmccr8

I m not going to argue this with you. It is impossible to really discuss it, or explain it, where the other  person has no idea what I am talking about.

I will say a few things 

It is hard enough for me to get my head around, without trying to explain it to another

i gave my consent. i don't think it is possible without the consent and participation of the recipient, but i cannot speak for the experience of others. 

if you read books on ancient cultures, shamans, Neanderthal, cromagnon and neolithic humans ,  and even people like indigenous Australians when white men arrived, and  the way they interacted with their world,  you can see how the y, and especially their shamans, connected not just to the material world  but to what the y saw as a spirit world, where every thing had its own life force and spirit.

Given their  lack of scientific knowldge the y saw this as mystical or magical.  I experience the same thing and see it as a form of technology.  I have the science to  know that a tree doesn't have a mind and thus when a tree speaks with me, it is another agency doing the speaking. Same for when animals speak to you. 

i simply don't get your comment about my environment, or me suppressing an aspect of myself.

i control aspects of myself , I choose what i am open to, and what I am not open to. So i am not open to anger or fear , jealousy or hate  but I am open to  compassion, empathy, love, joy, and communication. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Xeno

That was something that I tried to suggest earlier and thought that it would come up later, you know how it is sometimes some people don't get it until they hear it in another voice.:D I also think that making multiple copies of oneself may have harmful effects on both the clones and donor if they all know that they all exist and think that there may be a whole battery of testing done to make sure that the were good candidates for cloning.

jmccr8

If that were the case then the y shouldn't be cloned As always i speak from  my own perspective  I am sure there would be many opposed to it for religious reasons and concerns about"the soul"  

I would love it and see nothing to fear .  i wouldn't be disturbed if i went to sleep/died right now  and was suddenly awakened   in a world 50 or 100 years in the   the future Again I would love it indeed if it was possible and guaranteed with minimal risk  i would signup for it right now.

  Ive read dozens of books on the subject and thought through how and why i feel about this for myself.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, joc said:

Right now i am looking at my fish aquarium.  I've looked at it every single day for well over a year...

So...I die.   They found a way to download my memories.  So they stick them in an android clone. Or a live clone.  Now the clone is accessing the memory of looking at my fish tank...but is it experiencing the fish tank as I am now?  Watching, thinking, enjoying...I think not.

Okay...now...I have my head down as I'm typing with my eyes closed.  I have the memory of the fish tank.  I have the memory of what the fish sort of look like.  But I am no longer seeing the fish tank...no longer experiencing the fish tank...and no matter how hard I try I cannot get that memory back in my head as an experience.

It is a silly and stupid concept in my way of thinking and I cannot even begin to explain why sane people would even consider such a thing.  Just my two cents...back to The Crown...

No but  it is doing what you are doing now ie REMEMBERING doing all those things.

It wil have the same experiences and the same memories of the experience so it WILL have participated in the watching and will remember doing so. In a weeks time all you will have will be memories and your clone will be just the same. It's reality, like yours, will be in its memories of the past.

In the present that is all we have and it  is what  gives us our identity and sense of self.   

Imagine the alternative,

You lose ALL memory of your past,  permanently  In that case you no longer exist and nothing about you, except your physical body, exists.

Now imagine having your memories restored to you perhaps from a recording stored away somewhere.

Suddenly you are you, again.   

I watched this happen to my father when he was in his mid fifties.

Luckily it only lasted about 24 hours and his memories gradually returned.

The same thing happened to an uncle while he was in the middle of a flooded lake Eyre in a small boat,  and he was marooned on a small sandy island because he had no idea of where he was or how he got there. Luckily a search plane spotted him and he was rescued. He also regained his memory 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I m not going to argue this with you. It is impossible to really discuss it, or explain it, where the other  person has no idea what I am talking about.

Hi Walker

I am not asking you to argue it only to explain your personal experience. I am an observer of your life as you depict it I only ask questions to confirm a position.:D

17 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I will say a few things 

It is hard enough for me to get my head around, without trying to explain it to another

So then you understand my position I am the listener.:tu:

18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

i gave my consent. i don't think it is possible without the consent and participation of the recipient, but i cannot speak for the experience of others. 

So you were personally possessed by this entity okay what about the priest that visited you and gave you a bible then waled out of the side of the hospital, was it a consenting priest and could he testify that he was under the influence of and entity?

21 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

if you read books on ancient cultures, shamans, Neanderthal, cromagnon and neolithic humans ,

I have and get regular updates about what is being discovered and at this time there are no interpretations of ancient android aliens so could you refine your position ?

24 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Given their  lack of scientific knowldge the y saw this as mystical or magical.  I experience the same thing and see it as a form of technology.  I have the science to  know that a tree doesn't have a mind and thus when a tree speaks with me, it is another agency doing the speaking. Same for when animals speak to you. 

You know I have been around men of power and men of ignorance and not one of them has given me cause to believe that man is his own doctor.

26 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

i simply don't get your comment about my environment, or me suppressing an aspect of myself.

I do not mean any detriment but we have lived under different conditions and some of the things you describe as the exception I see as the norm. You now say that you choose which aspects of animal instinct you encourage and that you suppress other aspects which is new for you and why I am questioning you about it.

29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

i control aspects of myself , I choose what i am open to, and what I am not open to. So i am not open to anger or fear , jealousy or hate  but I am open to  compassion, empathy, love, joy, and communication. 

Contrary to your personal belief system we all do to varying degrees depending on circumstances.

jmccr8

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

If that were the case then the y shouldn't be cloned As always i speak from  my own perspective  I am sure there would be many opposed to it for religious reasons and concerns about"the soul"

Could you clarify what you mean by if that" isn't the case they shouldn't be cloned" as I am not sure what you are inferring by case?

23 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I would love it and see nothing to fear .  i wouldn't be disturbed if i went to sleep/died right now  and was suddenly awakened   in a world 50 or 100 years in the   the future Again I would love it indeed if it was possible and guaranteed with minimal risk  i would signup for it right now.

So not knowing the perils of your actions is not relevant nor considering the process that would allow you to do so? We are talking near future here and not end product.

jmccr8

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I am not asking you to argue it only to explain your personal experience. I am an observer of your life as you depict it I only ask questions to confirm a position.:D

So then you understand my position I am the listener.:tu:

So you were personally possessed by this entity okay what about the priest that visited you and gave you a bible then waled out of the side of the hospital, was it a consenting priest and could he testify that he was under the influence of and entity?

I have and get regular updates about what is being discovered and at this time there are no interpretations of ancient android aliens so could you refine your position ?

You know I have been around men of power and men of ignorance and not one of them has given me cause to believe that man is his own doctor.

I do not mean any detriment but we have lived under different conditions and some of the things you describe as the exception I see as the norm. You now say that you choose which aspects of animal instinct you encourage and that you suppress other aspects which is new for you and why I am questioning you about it.

Contrary to your personal belief system we all do to varying degrees depending on circumstances.

jmccr8

lol No i was 12/13 years old and had been working on understanding and disciplining my mind for almost a decade (my first conscious memories of doing this begin  aged about 3 or 4)  i was  suddenly connected to the cosmic consciousness and had what you might call a gnosis or enlightenment.  no priests involved (I was a secular humanist like my parents)  If you want to know a bit like what it was like read Maurice Bucke's book 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Consciousness:_A_Study_in_the_Evolution_of_the_Human_Mind

The bloke in the hospital wasn't a priest, and that happened in 2004, more than 40 years after my first contact.

Also that was a physical manifestation The first experience was a mental  one 

The cosmic consciousness is a teacher, guide, mentor, and sometimes protector 

So, when a shaman in 10000 bc connected to it, it would tell him where the mammoths were and how to hunt them,  or give advice on family and social organisation, or safer ways to do things 

We see this also in the  jewish and christian books which make up the bible, but by then, people were hearing what they thought was god or angels  The y codified the rules given to them to secure and benefit society and family over individual desire and greed. 

ive always explained how i learned to regulate my responses, both psychological/emotional and physical.

i began aged 3 or 4, from the moment i became aware of my inner stream of consciousness while sitting on our outside toilet and first becoming conscious of that inner voice , and thus first developed my sense of identity,  and have worked on it all my life.

It has made me a very succesful (by my  values)  and happy person with a good reputation in my community and complete respect for myself and who i am 

well i would sincerely hope most humas can control their animal instincts. Those who cannot should be automatically locked up until the y learn how to :) 

However many cannot, especially when affected by drugs or alcohol or conditioning from their childhood.

Thus we have rape, murder, child abuse,  social and domestic violence, road rage and other crimes, fueled not by profit or even greed, but just by a loss of emotional control. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Could you clarify what you mean by if that" isn't the case they shouldn't be cloned" as I am not sure what you are inferring by case?

So not knowing the perils of your actions is not relevant nor considering the process that would allow you to do so? We are talking near future here and not end product.

jmccr8

If the y were not psychologically suited, afraid, or otherwise worried about having multi identical copies of themselves, then the y would not be suited to cloning especially to multiple copies.

  I dont  understand  your second question. What perils ?

I said IF the technology was reliable.

For example with my operations there was, first, a 1% chance i would die, and second time a 5% chance i would die.

However i considered those risks acceptable.

The important  thing was that  i was informed that the y existed and counselled about them 

I accept a  considerable(statistically)  risk of death or injury when driving, and know there is a much lower, but existing, risk, when i fly.   if i could be put into suspended animation now with even a 10-20% chance i would not re awaken, but knowing that, if i did, I would be myself in  a new young  body sometime in the future I would volunteer like a shot .

If an alien invited me on a risky stellar voyage, i would take it also, (after providing for my wife, and discussing it with her to see if she would like to come along)  , 

Edited by Mr Walker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No but  it is doing what you are doing now ie REMEMBERING doing all those things.

Hi Walker

On initial search I found this and to erase a memory from someone may not be all that effective as one may never know if other memories are being incorporated into your own as they surface.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/29/memory-loss-what-makes-people-forgot-who-they-are-amnesia

Away from the big screen, psychogenic amnesia is a condition in which the showreel of personal life malfunctions. Traumatic personal events disappear and fall to the cutting-room floor. Narrative gaps infiltrate your story. White noise drowns out your past.

For some, amnesia is specific to a situation: being in car crash or witnessing a murder. In others, it is not a solitary personal experience that drifts away in time but your identity, your self. “Who am I, what have I been doing all my life?”

23 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

It wil have the same experiences and the same memories of the experience so it WILL have participated in the watching and will remember doing so. In a weeks time all you will have will be memories and your clone will be just the same. It's reality, like yours, will be in its memories of the past.

When I remember my boys it was like yesterday and yet I saw the last of ten get patted in the face with a shovel but that doesn't mean that a cloned me would remember them as I did because I knew them with the body and time that they existed in. Sure you can argue that my body is not the same now as it was then but me and my body have a unique experience and yes it is possible to have unique experiences with a new body but my second body was not there to experience the first so I am hesitant to think that one can transfer the same body mind into a different body that the mind has no experience with and expect no variation.

31 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

In the present that is all we have and it  is what  gives us our identity and sense of self.

My past is what created me and defines who I am and I am not likely to believe that I am me if I am not in the body that identify with because it was the means of the journey of who am I.

35 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You lose ALL memory of your past,  permanently  In that case you no longer exist and nothing about you, except your physical body, exists.

Now imagine having your memories restored to you perhaps from a recording stored away somewhere.

Suddenly you are you, again. 

Fortunately I am not built that way, had a couple of guys beat my head and threw my body in a dumpster hoping that I would not remember what happened, well that didn't go so well for them. I am not a submitting kind of guy and you are saying you are willing to let others do what they will do and be eager for it. Ya well if it works for you go for it.I have spent my whole life being young I don't need anymore than that. :tu:

44 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Now imagine having your memories restored to you perhaps from a recording stored away somewhere.

Might be a bit of a problem if I can't edit what they see first.:whistle:

45 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Suddenly you are you, again.   

Surprise I have always been me.:lol:

46 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I watched this happen to my father when he was in his mid fifties.

Luckily it only lasted about 24 hours and his memories gradually returned.

So you understand my position on suppressing/erasing memory and how it can come back

:tu:

48 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The same thing happened to an uncle while he was in the middle of a flooded lake Eyre in a small boat,  and he was marooned on a small sandy island because he had no idea of where he was or how he got there. Luckily a search plane spotted him and he was rescued. He also regained his memory 

And this means what in reference to our discussion?

jmccr8

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

On initial search I found this and to erase a memory from someone may not be all that effective as one may never know if other memories are being incorporated into your own as they surface.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/29/memory-loss-what-makes-people-forgot-who-they-are-amnesia

Away from the big screen, psychogenic amnesia is a condition in which the showreel of personal life malfunctions. Traumatic personal events disappear and fall to the cutting-room floor. Narrative gaps infiltrate your story. White noise drowns out your past.

For some, amnesia is specific to a situation: being in car crash or witnessing a murder. In others, it is not a solitary personal experience that drifts away in time but your identity, your self. “Who am I, what have I been doing all my life?”

When I remember my boys it was like yesterday and yet I saw the last of ten get patted in the face with a shovel but that doesn't mean that a cloned me would remember them as I did because I knew them with the body and time that they existed in. Sure you can argue that my body is not the same now as it was then but me and my body have a unique experience and yes it is possible to have unique experiences with a new body but my second body was not there to experience the first so I am hesitant to think that one can transfer the same body mind into a different body that the mind has no experience with and expect no variation.

My past is what created me and defines who I am and I am not likely to believe that I am me if I am not in the body that identify with because it was the means of the journey of who am I.

Fortunately I am not built that way, had a couple of guys beat my head and threw my body in a dumpster hoping that I would not remember what happened, well that didn't go so well for them. I am not a submitting kind of guy and you are saying you are willing to let others do what they will do and be eager for it. Ya well if it works for you go for it.I have spent my whole life being young I don't need anymore than that. :tu:

Might be a bit of a problem if I can't edit what they see first.:whistle:

Surprise I have always been me.:lol:

So you understand my position on suppressing/erasing memory and how it can come back

:tu:

And this means what in reference to our discussion?

jmccr8

ah your problem is your way of looking at this, and not a real physical one, you can't "get" that  every copy of you, would BE you.

How about we give you a young,  but otherwise identical, clone of yourself, aged 20 or so, made from your own body cells and genetic material  ? Would that make the transition easier? 

Hey i would resist what i do not like or want, but i WANT and like this idea.

it is my choice and i would fight to exercise it 

You don't want it; you certainly shouldn't be forced to have it . :)  Are you seriously saying that if you were given a change to be made young again and gain another 60 years of life, you would turn it down?  Maybe you are still too young to appreciate the opportunity  :) 

also not having biological children or grandchildren might make it easier for me. And having a wife 9 years older than me, who may not have much longer to live  might also make it easier.  .

 

My dad and my uncle (on my wife's side) both had transient global amnesia it was so rare that, in my dads case no one knew what had happened to him (back in the 70s)

Unlike some he suffered a total memory loss back to about the age of 18.  He knew who he was but had no memory of his wife (my mother whom he met aged about 20 or any of his life after aged 18. He woke up in their bed one morning and asked who she was and what she was doing in his bed :) .   After  spending 24 hours in hospital, his memories came back, but then he forgot the experience of losing them  .

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/transient-global-amnesia/symptoms-causes/syc-20378531

 

Symptoms

Transient global amnesia is identified by its main symptom, which is the inability to form new memories and to recall the recent past. Once that symptom is confirmed, ruling out other possible causes of amnesia is important.

These signs and symptoms must be present to diagnose transient global amnesia:

Sudden onset of memory loss, verified by a witness

Retention of personal identity despite memory loss

Normal cognition, such as the ability to recognize and name familiar objects and follow simple directions

Absence of signs indicating damage to a particular area of the brain, such as limb paralysis, involuntary movement or impaired word recognition

Additional symptoms and history that may help diagnose transient global amnesia:

Duration of no more than 24 hours and generally shorter

Gradual return of memory

No recent head injury

No evidence of seizures during the period of amnesia

No history of active epilepsy

Along with these signs and symptoms, a common feature of transient global amnesia includes repetitive questioning, usually of the same question — for example, "What am I doing here?" or "How did we get here?"

 

Edited by Mr Walker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

ah your problem is your way of looking at this, and not a real physical one, you can't "get" that  every copy of you, would BE you.

Hi Walker:D

 

I may not see it as a problem in the same sense as you do.

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

How about we give you a young,  but otherwise identical, clone of yourself, aged 20 or so, made from your own body cells and genetic material  ? Would that make the transition easier? 

Hmm,.. well is society willing to see me in a twenty year old body knowing what I know? I think not that may make me more dangerous as I have lived this long living the way I have and nothing has killed me yet so it is possible that I could develop a seniority complex that could be difficult to manage which is why I brought up profiling. Why would anything be good for the few rather than the whole?

14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Hey i would resist what i do not like or want, but i WANT and like this idea.

No understatement there.

15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

t is my choice and i would fight to exercise it 

so is this thread.:D

15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You don't want it; you certainly shouldn't be forced to have it . :)  Are you seriously saying that if you were given a change to be made young again and gain another 60 years of life, you would turn it down?  Maybe you are still too young to appreciate the opportunity  :) 

I do not feel bad about my age nor would I change it, physically I am in good condition so have no desire to be a better me, I am the best and the all of me that I need to be. This life is what is mine and what I know if there is a natural progression beyond what I am now then so be it and if you interfere with that process by tying to avoid it I pity you for not truely appreciating what being in the world is. for me living for obscure illusions is not how I work.

There are many things that one can deny about oneself to see perfection, I do not question that you are a good person but am saying that given the references that you have you are heavily invested in a concept that at this time is not feasible and that makes me wonder about why.

28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

also not having biological children or grandchildren might make it easier for me. And having a wife 9 years older than me, who may not have much longer to live  might also make it easier.  .

Maybe but that is what makes us human, I gave up my life to have one that my daughter and grand-daughter could respect.

jmccr8

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, @Sherapy's question:

Quote

What would be the best affect response coming face to face with a grizzly bear and why?

Woodsy guy here, but from the wrong part of the continent for grizzlies.

The closest I've come to what I think you're getting at is when I was set upon by a pack of dogs in the woods, half a dozen eighty pounders. I caught a break in that the amply justified fear cashed out as a heightened clarity of thought, focused on the problem at hand.

It worked out. As an aside, however, I keep a shirt with its right sleeve ripped apart at the wrist. That was from a failed defensive move when a Rottie got me in the knee. The problem then was that I lacked fear until it was too late (and then I made for up for the earlier lack). Nowadays I wear the shirt when I'm around certain dogs.

BTW: regardless of the species you're facing, if you're an adult human, then you smell bad and taste accordingly. Kind of like why skunks are an unpopular menu item, except that we stink 24/7/365. That is how our species survived long enough that our much-praised but mixed-blessing intelligence was able to count for anything useful.

Therefore, whatever you're facing probably doesn't want to eat you (this doesn't apply to young children!). Your prioity, then, is not to be a threat and to appear to be ever so slightly a chore to kill. Best to leave you alone, then. What the other party takes as threatening is something you should find out before you go traipsing around in their woods.

So, out of the woods, and back to bed with @Mr Walker

Quote

But published case studies suggest that lucid dreaming can provide effective relief from chronic nightmares. More controlled investigations have also suggested that lucid dreaming, either as a stand-alone technique or as an add-on to other psychotherapeutic approaches, can be successfully applied to reduce the frequency and severity of nightmares.

Coincidentally (?), I was reading some of Gackenbach's work the other day. I don't have any quarrel with her. What she says about video games as a kind of training for lucid dreaming makes sense, and comports with other studies of successful dream incubation (influencing the subject matter for dreams before going to sleep) using video games. High fives all around.

HOWEVER, as to the rest of your Google dissertation, we weren't discussing the therapeutic uses of lucid dreaming, but the nature of lucid dreaming itself. Many therapeutic agents and practices are in themselves noxious and poisonous, but used under professional learned supervision, can also be effective in treating pathological conditions.

For example, surgical amputation may be an effective life-saving maneuver in certain desperate circumstances. Nevertheless, hacking your arm off to impress the three-breasted alien amazons is a bad idea.

I think Sherapy's "Anything that would interfere with ones sleep would not be recommended in any therapeutic setting," is one notch too strong, but only that much. Some PTSD nightmare plagues deprive the sufferer of any normal sleep at all. Obviously, it's worth aiming for less-than-optimal sleep when the alternative is even worse, especially with the long-term goal of getting back to as normal a restorative sleep pattern as possible, and as quickly as possible.

 

Edited by eight bits
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

For almost EVERY fear, and possibly even the most basic, we have to learn to construct a fear response.

Depends, we seem to be born with at least 2 fears: falling and loud sounds.  I don't think I'd put it as generally as 'constructing a fear response'. The fear response is fairly consistent and I think the origin of it is not under our control, Sherapy shared some of the common physiological responses.  I'd put it more specifically as we construct ways to control and deal with the innate fear responses.

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I can understand why you would see it as scary.. It has never seemed like that to me. I've been connected to the cosmic consciousness

I wasn't referring to the cosmic consciousness, I was referring to your alien angel who 'uses' hosts, both human and botanical apparently.  I'm sure it probably gets the host's permission or something, but if we again had a picture of the angel in human form then we could theoretically track down the host and ask them about their experience and whether they remember it at all or if they remember being possessed by an angel.  I kinda got the impression from previous stories that this angel was shape-shifting and not possessing other hosts anyway.  The previous hospital story when the angel visited you and disappeared/flew off your hospital room balcony (IIRC) included you noting how all the nurses found him so preternaturally beautiful and attractive.  Must be choosy and only possesses male models or something...

Quote

i began aged 3 or 4, from the moment i became aware of my inner stream of consciousness while sitting on our outside toilet and first becoming conscious of that inner voice 

Arggh, ow, my head!  *crackle* *bzzzt* "Error 420: buffer overflow - exceeded internal potential smart-ass comment capacity - shutting down".  (jk walker, just funning with ya)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, eight bits said:

First, @Sherapy's question:

Woodsy guy here, but from the wrong part of the continent for grizzlies.

The closest I've come to what I think you're getting at is when I was set upon by a pack of dogs in the woods, half a dozen eighty pounders. I caught a break in that the amply justified fear cashed out as a heightened clarity of thought, focused on the problem at hand.

It worked out. As an aside, however, I keep a shirt with its right sleeve ripped apart at the wrist. That was from a failed defensive move when a Rottie got me in the knee. The problem then was that I lacked fear until it was too late (and then I made for up for the earlier lack). Nowadays I wear the shirt when I'm around certain dogs.

BTW: regardless of the species you're facing, if you're an adult human, then you smell bad and taste accordingly. Kind of like why skunks are an unpopular menu item, except that we stink 24/7/365. That is how our species survived long enough that our much-praised but mixed-blessing intelligence was able to count for anything useful.

Therefore, whatever you're facing probably doesn't want to eat you (this doesn't apply to young children!). Your prioity, then, is not to be a threat and to appear to be ever so slightly a chore to kill. Best to leave you alone, then. What the other party takes as threatening is something you should find out before you go traipsing around in their woods.

So, out of the woods, and back to bed with @Mr Walker

Coincidentally (?), I was reading some of Gackenbach's work the other day. I don't have any quarrel with her. What she says about video games as a kind of training for lucid dreaming makes sense, and comports with other studies of successful dream incubation (influencing the subject matter for dreams before going to sleep) using video games. High fives all around.

HOWEVER, as to the rest of your Google dissertation, we weren't discussing the therapeutic uses of lucid dreaming, but the nature of lucid dreaming itself. Many therapeutic agents and practices are in themselves noxious and poisonous, but used under professional learned supervision, can also be effective in treating pathological conditions.

For example, surgical amputation may be an effective life-saving maneuver in certain desperate circumstances. Nevertheless, hacking your arm off to impress the three-breasted alien amazons is a bad idea.

I think Sherapy's "Anything that would interfere with ones sleep would not be recommended in any therapeutic setting," is one notch too strong, but only that much. Some PTSD nightmare plagues deprive the sufferer of any normal sleep at all. Obviously, it's worth aiming for less-than-optimal sleep when the alternative is even worse, especially with the long-term goal of getting back to as normal a restorative sleep pattern as possible, and as quickly as possible.

 

Thanks for the refinements/corrections, Paul. :D
 

I go to therapy next week and I will ask my therapist if she has heard of lucid dreaming being used as a therapy. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

ah your problem is your way of looking at this, and not a real physical one, you can't "get" that  every copy of you, would BE you.

How about we give you a young,  but otherwise identical, clone of yourself, aged 20 or so, made from your own body cells and genetic material  ? Would that make the transition easier? 

Hey i would resist what i do not like or want, but i WANT and like this idea.

it is my choice and i would fight to exercise it 

You don't want it; you certainly shouldn't be forced to have it . :)  Are you seriously saying that if you were given a change to be made young again and gain another 60 years of life, you would turn it down?  Maybe you are still too young to appreciate the opportunity  :) 

also not having biological children or grandchildren might make it easier for me. And having a wife 9 years older than me, who may not have much longer to live  might also make it easier.  .

 

My dad and my uncle (on my wife's side) both had transient global amnesia it was so rare that, in my dads case no one knew what had happened to him (back in the 70s)

Unlike some he suffered a total memory loss back to about the age of 18.  He knew who he was but had no memory of his wife (my mother whom he met aged about 20 or any of his life after aged 18. He woke up in their bed one morning and asked who she was and what she was doing in his bed :) .   After  spending 24 hours in hospital, his memories came back, but then he forgot the experience of losing them  .

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/transient-global-amnesia/symptoms-causes/syc-20378531

 

Symptoms

Transient global amnesia is identified by its main symptom, which is the inability to form new memories and to recall the recent past. Once that symptom is confirmed, ruling out other possible causes of amnesia is important.

These signs and symptoms must be present to diagnose transient global amnesia:

Sudden onset of memory loss, verified by a witness

Retention of personal identity despite memory loss

Normal cognition, such as the ability to recognize and name familiar objects and follow simple directions

Absence of signs indicating damage to a particular area of the brain, such as limb paralysis, involuntary movement or impaired word recognition

Additional symptoms and history that may help diagnose transient global amnesia:

Duration of no more than 24 hours and generally shorter

Gradual return of memory

No recent head injury

No evidence of seizures during the period of amnesia

No history of active epilepsy

Along with these signs and symptoms, a common feature of transient global amnesia includes repetitive questioning, usually of the same question — for example, "What am I doing here?" or "How did we get here?"

 

Are you seriously saying that if you were given a change to be made young again and gain another 60 years of life, you would turn it down?  Maybe you are still too young to appreciate the opportunity  :) ( Walker).

My answer is no, for me, having children has been so fulfilling and so growth producing on a personal level I feel like I have lived to the absolute fullest. 
Next, I have grandchildren and daughter in laws to look forward to. 

Due to the circumstances of my childhood, I have had an opportunities and experiences that have challenged me to transcend and effect so much in the way of ending harm to children and personal growth and having children of my own has given me the inspiration and reason to be the best I can be, I identify with Jay when he says he loves where he is at in life. I echo the sentiments. I enjoy now. For me, I didn’t find my true love the first time out, but I didn’t settle either and in doing so I opened the door to an amazing love story and came with the wisdom to know how to nurture a loving relationship. There is a lot to be said for knowing what not to do. And, I am at a place in life where we indulge ourselves in the things we find fun, traveling and new experiences is our fun, I had to scale back a bit because it was to much I even traveled for work, now, I only travel for pleasure. Life with grown kids is fiscally really nice too, we are like kids in a candy store. It turns out in the Positive Therapy movement this is on the list of how to enhance ones joy in life, indulging oneself. Go figure. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Phobias are a heightened form of fear Ordinary fear is just the same.

 A child is not born into this world in a state of fear. It learns to fear from  its environment and sometimes it is TAUGHT to fear.

Sure we are all CAPABLE of fear but we are also all capable of not being afraid.

Basically one just has to unlearn the fear responses one learned when very young. 

Yes. like all similar animals. humans have an evolved tendency to fear as a survival instinct, but being humans we can eliminate the fear and chose better more productive responses which enhance our survivabilty  Other animals cannot do this and rely on fear to protect themselves.  Thus, while another animal will have a rush of chemicals causing it to fight or flee, a human can control those chemical responses,  and use their brain to chose a better response than a random escape run or trying to fight a predator.

  An Adrenalin rush, caused by a fear response,  is not the best survival choice for a human in a dangerous situation . Using their superior mind and intelligence is. 

You are simply wrong about lucid dreaming It is used by many psychologists and other therapists to heal traumas, overcome fears, teach new responses, or just for relaxation and control. 

It is actuly encoureged to INCREASE people's abilty to enjoy a sound night's sleep 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/dreaming-in-the-digital-age/201810/healthier-sleep-path-lucid-dreaming

 

More than twenty years ago in The Healing Power of Dreams, Patricia Garfield presciently observed, “The potential for healing in lucid dreams is enormous.” Researchers like Stephen LaBerge and Jayne Gackenbach had already gathered anecdotal reports of apparent physical healing experiences from an OMNI magazine survey of lucid dreamers in 1987, and Ed Kellogg reported in the Lucidity Letter (1988) of his success healing an infected tonsil.

Since that time, little research on physical healing in lucid dreams has occurred, apart from the additional investigations of Ed Kellogg. After the publication of my book, Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self and its chapter on successful and non successful examples of lucid dream healings, new reports of physical healings arrive almost each quarter to the magazine I co-edit, Lucid Dreaming Experience (LDE). Seemingly, lucid dreamers only needed a reminder of its healing potential to realize it.

https://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/psychological-healing-in-lucid-dreams.html

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/the-superhuman-mind/201212/lucid-dreaming-and-self-realization

 

https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/vbxk7b/lucid-dreaming-could-help-scientists-understand-mental-illness

But published case studies suggest that lucid dreaming can provide effective relief from chronic nightmares. More controlled investigations have also suggested that lucid dreaming, either as a stand-alone technique or as an add-on to other psychotherapeutic approaches, can be successfully applied to reduce the frequency and severity of nightmares.

I do believe lucid dreaming can be therapeutic. However it's still treated as psuedo science (despite being scientifically proven). For one, researchers argue there's still no set induction method that works. Another, it could take months of practice/persistence before it happens (one single time). Furthmore lucid dream sites/channels like reddit and youtube are overloaded with charlatans creating disinformation (for the sake of more subscribers). Finally it gets easily associated w things (like remote viewing/astral projection) that aren't scientifically proven. With that said (my personal opinion) you dont come off as 'dream expert' and I DO appreciate u (providing links) bringing subject to everyone's attention.

Edited by Bed of chaos
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Bed of chaos said:

I do believe lucid dreaming can be therapeutic. However it's still treated as psuedo science (despite being scientifically proven). For one, researchers argue there's still no set induction method that works. Another, it could take months of practice/persistence before it happens (one single time). Furthmore lucid dream sites/channels like reddit and youtube are overloaded with charlatans creating disinformation (for the sake of more subscribers). Finally it gets easily associated w things (like remote viewing/astral projection) that aren't scientifically proven. With that said, you dont come off as 'dream expert' and I appreciate u (providing links) bringing subject to everyone's attention.

I was thinking the same it isn’t a pragmatic easily applied method, whatever that method supposedly is. Shrugs.

A person with PTSD, or nitemare would want a therapy that doesn’t take years and years to work. 
 

I work for a doctor who is at current experiment with ketamine ( high does with anesthesia) and (high doses without anesthesia) for the first time, her personal quest is to see if she can deal with the hallucinations without anesthetic intervention.

She is going tomorrow, I will know Friday how it went.

The reason for this is she has chronic pain and high doses ketamine floods the pain receptors with dopamine possibly rewiring them to significantly lessen the pain. 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

I was thinking the same it isn’t a pragmatic easily applied method, whatever that method supposedly is. Shrugs.

A person with PTSD, or nitemare would want a therapy that doesn’t take years and years to work. 
 

I work for a doctor who is at current experiment with ketamine ( high does with anesthesia) and (high doses without anesthesia) for the first time, her personal quest is to see if she can deal with the hallucinations without anesthetic intervention.

She is going tomorrow, I will know Friday how it went.

The reason for this is she has chronic pain and high doses ketamine floods the pain receptors with dopamine possibly rewiring them to significantly lessen the pain. 

No worries (however i doubt It takes years) In my opinion, it could take a week or months. Also, I've seen no evidence (in 30yrs) its dangerous. If interested, most lucid dreamers do agree keeping a dream journal is beneficial (improves dream recall, very quickly). On another note, just noticed 'dream class'. Id bet teacher avoided topic because it gets lumped together w paranormal themes (like astral projection or remote viewing)..or because even providing basic explanation (of concept: ur awake in dream) can easily confuse people.

Edited by Bed of chaos
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bed of chaos said:

No worries (however i doubt It takes years) In my opinion, it could take a week or months. Also, I've seen no evidence (in 30yrs) its dangerous. If interested, most lucid dreamers do agree keeping a dream journal is beneficial (improves dream recall, very quickly). On another note, just noticed 'dream class'. Id bet teacher avoided topic because it gets lumped together w paranormal themes (like astral projection or remote viewing)..or because even providing basic explanation (of concept: ur awake in dream) can easily confuse people.

@White Crane Feather
How does  one induce lucid dreaming, we have a poster WCF who has night terrors and to date nothing seems to help him. He would sure love to be able to sleep. 

He is looking for help with this. 

Perhaps you can offer some help. 
 

I am a aware of dream interpretation via psychotherapy and when I used it was helpful,it wasn’t for nite mares  or PTSD though. 

I have had lucid dreams but have no real interest beyond what happens naturally. I don’t buy into the woo of astral travel or remote viewing either. 

I figured lucid dreaming is not  evidenced enough to be included in a dream course, but you could be right too. 
 

None the less thanks for your input, it is interesting and welcome to UM. 

The doctor (Neurologist)  I work for the one who is getting induced hallucinations for chronic pain, but she is also testing out if one can control and shape nitemare hallucinations from a conscious state. So far they have used anesthesia to bring her out of nite mares some she remembers some she doesn’t, so far she was not able to control them, she is going in without anesthesia tomorrow.We are waiting to hear how it goes. This is why I mentioned this if a person can’t control hallucinations at a conscious level, I question being able to do this in a dream in a lucid state. 
 

 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker:D

 

I may not see it as a problem in the same sense as you do.

Hmm,.. well is society willing to see me in a twenty year old body knowing what I know? I think not that may make me more dangerous as I have lived this long living the way I have and nothing has killed me yet so it is possible that I could develop a seniority complex that could be difficult to manage which is why I brought up profiling. Why would anything be good for the few rather than the whole?

No understatement there.

so is this thread.:D

I do not feel bad about my age nor would I change it, physically I am in good condition so have no desire to be a better me, I am the best and the all of me that I need to be. This life is what is mine and what I know if there is a natural progression beyond what I am now then so be it and if you interfere with that process by tying to avoid it I pity you for not truely appreciating what being in the world is. for me living for obscure illusions is not how I work.

There are many things that one can deny about oneself to see perfection, I do not question that you are a good person but am saying that given the references that you have you are heavily invested in a concept that at this time is not feasible and that makes me wonder about why.

Maybe but that is what makes us human, I gave up my life to have one that my daughter and grand-daughter could respect.

jmccr8

I respect your views and understand them but i disagree i know why i feel as i do and why i think its a great idea 

I have no fear of  ANY scientific or medical advances as long as they are properly regulated

I have no personal investment in this as i will be dead long before we develop the technology.

 However i have read many books exploring the consequences and effects of it on individuals and societies   from  interpersonal/family  to economic . I find it fascinating and see it a s big future medical breakthrough like those of our past.such as vaccination and curing diseases like cancer.  

Is society ready for cosmetic surgery  which alters appearance and makes you look younger?  Well yes; indeed we embrace it enthusiastically 

And this would be a common procedure and thus normalised very quickly My point about not having kids is that the y would complicate a cloning process if suddenly the y had a dozen mothers and/or fathers  or parents who were younger than they were. :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sounds like a horrific situation. Sorry to hear. I'm currently having back surgery soon (it's been 2yrs of injections/pt/pills) so I can somewhat relate (not entirely) First off,  I would look up symptoms/signs of sleep paralysis and exploding head syndrome, along w other related sleeping disorders. Next check if insurance covers a pain management clinic. I have 1)  pain management clinic -jon heinz 2) physical therapist 3) regular md,  all simultaneously,  I believe in most states this can be obtained w medical assistance. Explore all options. There's plenty of meds for sleeping disorders. You work in a doctor's office, so I apologize if this info appears irrelevant. Sorry, I'll  be right back in five minutes.                                

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, eight bits said:

First, @Sherapy's question:

Woodsy guy here, but from the wrong part of the continent for grizzlies.

The closest I've come to what I think you're getting at is when I was set upon by a pack of dogs in the woods, half a dozen eighty pounders. I caught a break in that the amply justified fear cashed out as a heightened clarity of thought, focused on the problem at hand.

It worked out. As an aside, however, I keep a shirt with its right sleeve ripped apart at the wrist. That was from a failed defensive move when a Rottie got me in the knee. The problem then was that I lacked fear until it was too late (and then I made for up for the earlier lack). Nowadays I wear the shirt when I'm around certain dogs.

BTW: regardless of the species you're facing, if you're an adult human, then you smell bad and taste accordingly. Kind of like why skunks are an unpopular menu item, except that we stink 24/7/365. That is how our species survived long enough that our much-praised but mixed-blessing intelligence was able to count for anything useful.

Therefore, whatever you're facing probably doesn't want to eat you (this doesn't apply to young children!). Your prioity, then, is not to be a threat and to appear to be ever so slightly a chore to kill. Best to leave you alone, then. What the other party takes as threatening is something you should find out before you go traipsing around in their woods.

So, out of the woods, and back to bed with @Mr Walker

Coincidentally (?), I was reading some of Gackenbach's work the other day. I don't have any quarrel with her. What she says about video games as a kind of training for lucid dreaming makes sense, and comports with other studies of successful dream incubation (influencing the subject matter for dreams before going to sleep) using video games. High fives all around.

HOWEVER, as to the rest of your Google dissertation, we weren't discussing the therapeutic uses of lucid dreaming, but the nature of lucid dreaming itself. Many therapeutic agents and practices are in themselves noxious and poisonous, but used under professional learned supervision, can also be effective in treating pathological conditions.

For example, surgical amputation may be an effective life-saving maneuver in certain desperate circumstances. Nevertheless, hacking your arm off to impress the three-breasted alien amazons is a bad idea.

I think Sherapy's "Anything that would interfere with ones sleep would not be recommended in any therapeutic setting," is one notch too strong, but only that much. Some PTSD nightmare plagues deprive the sufferer of any normal sleep at all. Obviously, it's worth aiming for less-than-optimal sleep when the alternative is even worse, especially with the long-term goal of getting back to as normal a restorative sleep pattern as possible, and as quickly as possible.

 

I dont quite get your points.

One purpose of training ptsd sufferers to lucid dream is that they may then learn to control and shape the nightmares the y have, into controlled and pleasant dreams. This then relieves the fear of sleeping and allows a person to go to sleep more easily and to have a more restful sleep 

I have never encountered, nor heard discussed, any negative consequences of lucid dreaming, and i have been practicing and reading about it for almost 60 years 

That is not to say that some professionals have not  developed arguments or theories about negative impacts. Ive just never encountered them in print or in life. I suspect the y relte to all/any dreams rether than specifically lucid dreams Some might argue tha t it is better not to recall ANY dream if you have scary ones,  but once you lucid dream you soon will never have a scary dream again because you KNOW it is a dream which cant hurt you,  and you learn how to shape and control it into a pleasant, fun, or educative experience.  

However, it goes far beyond just the dreaming, because dreams are subconscious representations of waking experiences and thoughts.  When you learn the dream language and how to manipulate dreams you also learn to consciously regulate your subconscious mind, even while awke 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Are you seriously saying that if you were given a change to be made young again and gain another 60 years of life, you would turn it down?  Maybe you are still too young to appreciate the opportunity  :) ( Walker).

My answer is no, for me, having children has been so fulfilling and so growth producing on a personal level I feel like I have lived to the absolute fullest. 
Next, I have grandchildren and daughter in laws to look forward to. 

Due to the circumstances of my childhood, I have had an opportunities and experiences that have challenged me to transcend and effect so much in the way of ending harm to children and personal growth and having children of my own has given me the inspiration and reason to be the best I can be, I identify with Jay when he says he loves where he is at in life. I echo the sentiments. I enjoy now. For me, I didn’t find my true love the first time out, but I didn’t settle either and in doing so I opened the door to an amazing love story and came with the wisdom to know how to nurture a loving relationship. There is a lot to be said for knowing what not to do. And, I am at a place in life where we indulge ourselves in the things we find fun, traveling and new experiences is our fun, I had to scale back a bit because it was to much I even traveled for work, now, I only travel for pleasure. Life with grown kids is fiscally really nice too, we are like kids in a candy store. It turns out in the Positive Therapy movement this is on the list of how to enhance ones joy in life, indulging oneself. Go figure. 

as with jmcr8, i respect and understand your views, and what has  shaped them.

However, with a clone (as with any form of extended life) you could have longer with your kids, live to meet great grand kids, experience the future as it unfolds, and if you have enjoyed your life, then enjoy perhaps centuries more of it You could travel the world, learn new skills, and perhaps, one day, even travel to another planet as a tourist. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Bed of chaos said:

Sounds like a horrific situation. Sorry to hear. I'm currently having back surgery soon (it's been 2yrs of injections/pt/pills) so I can somewhat relate (not entirely) First off,  I would look up symptoms/signs of sleep paralysis and exploding head syndrome, along w other related sleeping disorders. Next check if insurance covers a pain management clinic. I have 1)  pain management clinic -jon heinz 2) physical therapist 3) regular md,  all simultaneously,  I believe in most states this can be obtained w medical assistance. Explore all options. There's plenty of meds for sleeping disorders. You work in a doctor's office, so I apologize if this info appears irrelevant. Sorry, I'll  be right back in five minutes.                                

Chronic pain sucks for anyone. All the best on your back surgery, I hope it helps. 

Thanks for your input none the less, it isn’t getting help that is the issue it’s that many options have been exhausted. 
 

The doc I work for not only wrote the Home Health Care initiative ( she found a discrepancy in the old one) she was chosen to go to Capitol Hill to do so. She is a lawyer too. 
 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • The topic was locked
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.