Afterlife, digital copies or clones

[eight bits]

9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You are simply wrong, because you assume your  "limitations" apply to everyone 

No, I assume that everybody's limitations apply to me, too.

11 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

At the risk of being accused of lying or bragging

Observation is not accusation.

12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

It is just a cognitive skill. Nothing mysterious or really very difficult. eg  the subconscious has a number of standard and known symbolic representations  for difernt things.

Inside or outside of psychology, symbol is a richer concept than that. "Standard and known representations" describes signs. The same concrete object can be both, but the two expressive functions are distinct.

I can see, however, that if you can't distinguish signs from symbols (using whatever vocabulary), then that would help sustain the delusion that you'd 'mastered' the unconscious. First, you relegate it to subordinate status by word play, then you deprive it of most of its expressive capacity. (And yes, as a matter of fact, you do brag about that.)

Freud didn't master his inner mind, Jung didn't either, but Walker has. No ego inflation there, eh? 'Cause Walker really, really studied it, as opposed to Freud and Jung who didn't. Uh huh.

 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Who's you? Certainly not me. I have no delusions that I can "consciously regulate" my mind's unconscious faculties and contents. Nobody else can either. Tautologically, even if anybody somehow could, they couldn't know that they have.

What some people can do is to believe that they have subdued their subconscious "mind," All those subs doubtless foster the delusion. Coincidentally, that belief is often accompanied by what Jungians call ego inflation. It is what it sounds like ("Oh what a good boy am I; I've tamed the dragon and keep her as a pet").

No, you have not learned to regulate consciously what you chest-beatingly call your subconscious. You can't even bring yourself to name it to reflect accurately its relation to conscious cognition, unconscious. It's nobody's sub, and only too obviously not yours.

 

 i found this interesting 

quote 

 

Subconscious Mind: Where Does It Hide?

It’s not uncommon to hear about conscious and unconscious types of actions when scientists talk about the brain. As a result, most of us are familiar with the idea that our behavior is less rational than we believe to be.

Whether we like it or not, our ability to control thoughts, synchronize movements, or experience emotions depends on the depth of information processing.

The idea of deeper levels of information processing was developed and extensively studied by famous Austrian psychologist Sigmund Freud (1856 – 1939) who introduced the 3 level mind model. According to his model, the mind could be divided into following levels:

Conscious – defines all thoughts and actions within our awareness.

For example, the beauty and pleasance of the smell of a red tulip

Subconscious – defines all reactions and automatic actions we can become aware of if we think about them.

For example, our ability to drive a car: once we get skilled we stop thinking which gears to use, which pedals to press, or which mirror to look at, yet can always become aware of what was done once we think about it.

Unconscious – defines all past events and memories, inaccessible to us no matter how hard we try to remember to bring things up.

For example, the first word we’ve learned to say, or how it felt to be able to walk on our own.

 

https://imotions.com/blog/what-is-the-subconscious-mind/

 

I am speaking of the first two, although i think the last one is actually a much smaller group than some imagine  ie if we ever  thought something, it is there in our mind and brain.  There may be problems recalling it, but different  techniques can help us do this. Examples include childhood trauma and abuse,  but also lesser concerns like phobias fetishes etc. 

eg after a stroke an adult has to learn to access their subconscious mind to learn how to control their movements. We have been using our bodies so long that  tour movements have become subconsciously directed Not consciously but not unconsciously either.

As babies we would have learned to walk/ talk  etc very consciously and deliberately, gradually   mastering control of speech and movement. Later in life movement and speech often becomes subconsciously controlled.   

 

[Mr Walker]

43 minutes ago, eight bits said:

No, I assume that everybody's limitations apply to me, too.

Observation is not accusation.

Inside or outside of psychology, symbol is a richer concept than that. "Standard and known representations" describes signs. The same concrete object can be both, but the two expressive functions are distinct.

I can see, however, that if you can't distinguish signs from symbols (using whatever vocabulary), then that would help sustain the delusion that you'd 'mastered' the unconscious. First, you relegate it to subordinate status by word play, then you deprive it of most of its expressive capacity. (And yes, as a matter of fact, you do brag about that.)

Freud didn't master his inner mind, Jung didn't either, but Walker has. No ego inflation there, eh? 'Cause Walker really, really studied it, as opposed to Freud and Jung who didn't. Uh huh.

 

lol the post was long enough without a detailed breakdown of symbols signs etc basically our subconscious/mind(no such thing as a thinking unconscious mind ) thinks in a non linguistic language using symbols 

quote

Man’s ultimate concern must be expressed symbolically because symbolic language alone is able to express the ultimate.        Paul Tillich

It is through symbols that man consciously or unconsciously lives, works and has his being.       Thomas Carlyle

The subconscious is recognized as the source of creativity, intuition, inspiration, inner knowing, interconnectedness, and spiritual enlightenment. Within this realm reality shifts and expands, creating a matrix that is far more elastic and multi-dimensional than is perceived by the conscious mind. When we access and spend time within the subconscious we are released from the confines of our logical, practical mind. The messages we receive from our dreams and the primordial symbols, or archetypes handed down to us from our ancestors, inform us about what is unique, authentic, and sacred to each of us. When we heed these messages we are following the path of our soul’s evolution.

These symbols and archetypes are essential elements of the collective unconscious, the universal intra-psychic structuring device innate to humans. It is as if the necessary acquired information learned by generations past is provided to us as a shortcut to our own evolution. Once something is learned in the evolution of human consciousness it is not necessary to learn it again. It is inherent, forever after, with what it means to be human. The “eternal vocabulary” of the collective unconscious lives within us, always ready to offer hints and clues, suggestions and solutions. Learning to access the subconscious and to fully utilize its gifts can help us to “see” in a new way. Beyond our conscious mind and usual senses the veil is lifted, revealing a world of unlimited possibilities.

 

.............................................

 What is far more important is the idea that the subconscious utilizes symbolism and imagery to express itself and the devaluing of the image in favor of the word may have done more damage to the way we think as a collective humanity. This may explain the decline of holistic expression so identified with the right brain. It has been suggested that television, film, and the Internet may be reintroducing the images that account for a heightened awareness and expression of holism. We can only hope that’s true.

The point of this is to begin to “think” in a different way; to become aware of the world of images and symbols, their meaning to you and how their presence affects you. Common symbols (institutional logos, highway signs, religious images, and so on) abound in daily life. See how much you might be taking them for granted. Try putting aside the logical and practical for a while and begin to imagine or envision without the use of words.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/in-flux/201301/the-inner-language-the-subconscious 

Call it woo if you like but this is from  a reputable 'journal" written by an MD 

quote

Your subconscious mind takes up over 80% of all of your mental activity. The subconscious is the seat of emotions, your imagination, your unconscious body processes, all of your memorized impressions and unconscious memories since the day you were born. It's also your internalized beliefs, habits, preferences, instincts and drives. In short, there's a lot going on under the surface. When we’re overtaken by strong emotions or in the grip of an unwanted habit, it’s our subconscious mind that’s pulling the strings.

But the subconscious isn't logical and analytical like the conscious mind. It doesn't distinguish between fantasy and reality. And it uses the language of symbols, pictures and metaphors to communicate ideas to your conscious mind. That's what dreams are. But you can also use metaphorical language to introduce ideas to your subconscious mind, since, like a computer program, the subconscious mind doesn't come up with beliefs or ideas on it's own. It just stores them.

 

............................

Since the subconscious mind doesn't distinguish between reality and fantasy, a hypnotherapist might guide the client into hypnosis and have them picture themselves with a dark cloud over their head, representing their problems and negative emotions. Then the client could be guided to visualize the cloud dissipating and turning into a rainbow, maybe some beautiful golden light surrounding the client or other healing imagery. The negative metaphor becomes transformed into a positive one, and this allows the client to have a shift in perspective, effectively tweaking the program in the subconscious mind that was tripping up the client.

Guided visualization like this can have benefits outside of hypnosis as well. Taking a few deep breaths and closing your eyes can allow the mind to relax enough to be receptive to imagery for goals and positive results. Just picturing yourself healed or successful can help the subconscious think that those things are real and achievable, and allow it to start working towards that reality.

It's also important to be mindful of critical self-thoughts and language. Saying things like "I'm dumb as a brick" or "This is a pain in my neck!" can be interpreted as commands to your subconscious mind with unintended consequences.

 

http://www.bkhypnosis.com/new-blog/2016/6/3/metaphors-and-the-language-of-the-subconscious-mind

i learned to do the things  bolded below, sometime between aged 5 and 10, totally by  trial and error, self analysis and logic, and experimentation 

quote

Understanding the unconscious symbols

So how can you understand the subconscious symbols?
The first thing you need to do is to stop using the meanings of the symbols that others provide because each mind is a different case.

Many people for example use dream interpolation symbols that are found online without realizing that each person's mind symbols are totally different than the symbols of other people.

Here is how you can use a dream to understand many of the symbols your subconscious mind uses: (see also Dreams and personality disorders)

1) Find the connections: When you see a dream try to connect what you saw to the recent events that took place in your life or to the current problems you are dealing with. Most dreams will be nothing more than a reflection of what's already going on in your life in the form of symbols. In other words, your subconscious mind was thinking about your problems while you were asleep but it does it in its own way. (see also Dream interpretation tips)

2) The whole dream must match reality: Don't try to interpret every symbol on its own but instead all the symbols in your dream must match a situation that you have been through. For example, if you had a private business and that business was suffering because of the economy then seeing yourself sailing through a storm might be the way your subconscious mind sees that situation

3) Use the symbols to interpret your psychological disorders: If a dog in your dreams represented your enemy then your fear of dogs might have nothing to do with dogs themselves but rather with your doubts about your ability to face your real enemies. (See also dreaming about someone)

Final words and important considerations

Many people fail to understand their minds because they follow the footsteps of others without allowing themselves to understand their own mind symbols.

The process is not simple and it can't happen in day or two but if you followed the rules strictly you will end up having a solid understanding of the way your mind codes events into symbols. Good luck!

 

https://www.2knowmyself.com/Understanding_the_unconscious_symbols

Edited November 27, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

55 minutes ago, eight bits said:

No, I assume that everybody's limitations apply to me, too.

Observation is not accusation.

Inside or outside of psychology, symbol is a richer concept than that. "Standard and known representations" describes signs. The same concrete object can be both, but the two expressive functions are distinct.

I can see, however, that if you can't distinguish signs from symbols (using whatever vocabulary), then that would help sustain the delusion that you'd 'mastered' the unconscious. First, you relegate it to subordinate status by word play, then you deprive it of most of its expressive capacity. (And yes, as a matter of fact, you do brag about that.)

Freud didn't master his inner mind, Jung didn't either, but Walker has. No ego inflation there, eh? 'Cause Walker really, really studied it, as opposed to Freud and Jung who didn't. Uh huh.

 

Ohb i just got something You assumed a subconscious mind is subordinate and is named because of that.  

I never read it like that, ever.  Having studied Latin (not very successfully)  i  understood the  subconscious mind to be so named because it exists deeper than conscious thought ie  beneath the conscious layer of thought,   not subordinate to it 

And i "studied " it as a child (aged 3 to adolescence)  without preconceptions and without prejudices or prior knowledge.   I learned it as i learned to talk and read and think ie by  trial and error experimentation and repetition etc.     I learned it by experience, but i am sure there are others like me. I learned it because I was driven by a deep and desperate  need to understand my mind and have it under my conscious control, including my unconscious thoughts.

  later i learned that control was not actually the aim but being able to manipulate and use it for constructive purposes, and avoid it causing destructive thoughts and behaviours   What you see as bragging is simply me talking about one of the most critical and powerful things from my childhood  

It came from  desperation and, as you can see if you look across a wide variety of my posts, it still defines and explains a lot about me, such as my reasons for  teaching myself never to allow my thoughts or behaviours to become uncontrolled  

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Mr Walker

[eight bits]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Ohb i just got something You assumed a subconscious mind is subordinate and is named because of that.  

No. Early on, Freud used both das Unterbewusste and das Unbewusste (bewusst is conscious; unter is under and un is un). He came to prefer das Unbewusste, the unconscious. Jung followed suit when he and Freud were a pair, and both continued that preference after their break-up.

Nevertheless, at least among lay English speakers, subconscious is very popular, admirers of Jung being an exception. I doubt this popularity reflects some widespread taste for Freud's earliest works, so it is a choice, and fair game for psychological interpretation. This would be especially fair for a faultlessly retentive Google scholar speed reader who surely has noticed that his preferred form is a minority choice among contemporary specialists. You've even remarked on it.

So, no, the term wasn't first applied to the unconscious in order to convey subordination. (More likely, the original imagery of under-ness was meant to suggest something like hidden from view). But subconscious does connote subordination, and the connotation patently reinforces a viewpoint that is distinctively your own, and your viewpoint is exactly subordination.

You complain about other people attributing views to you, even when they are spot on. Please consider refraining from falsely attributing etymological gaffes to me.

[White Crane Feather]

14 hours ago, Sherapy said:

@White Crane Feather
How does  one induce lucid dreaming, we have a poster WCF who has night terrors and to date nothing seems to help him. He would sure love to be able to sleep. 

He is looking for help with this. 

Perhaps you can offer some help. 
 

I am a aware of dream interpretation via psychotherapy and when I used it was helpful,it wasn’t for nite mares  or PTSD though. 

I have had lucid dreams but have no real interest beyond what happens naturally. I don’t buy into the woo of astral travel or remote viewing either. 

I figured lucid dreaming is not  evidenced enough to be included in a dream course, but you could be right too. 
 

None the less thanks for your input, it is interesting and welcome to UM. 

The doctor (Neurologist)  I work for the one who is getting induced hallucinations for chronic pain, but she is also testing out if one can control and shape nitemare hallucinations from a conscious state. So far they have used anesthesia to bring her out of nite mares some she remembers some she doesn’t, so far she was not able to control them, she is going in without anesthesia tomorrow.We are waiting to hear how it goes. This is why I mentioned this if a person can’t control hallucinations at a conscious level, I question being able to do this in a dream in a lucid state. 
 

 

I can’t seem to find who you are talking about, so ill respond here. 

A person struggling with the their dream life and lots of bad dreams can be living literally a nightmarish existence. Especially if any of it revolves around sleep paralysis. 

I’m not sure how far your conversation went, but a sleep study is absolutely essential. Apnea can cause a lot of lingering in between altered states of consciousness. There are certain parts of our REM cycles that are inherently negative and inherently positive. Typically nightmares and terrors are happening within this negative space. 

Nightmares are more than just internal conflict and all that. While psychological issues do appear in the dream world, our capacity to have nightmares is an evolved trait to build neural pathways to thwart predation.  This is why children between 3-6 often have night terror issues that can actually be pretty harrowing for even parents to watch. There brains are transitioning from a magical thinking open stage to a stage where children are naturally afraid of the dark and being alone. This isn’t just kids being kids. This protected them from wondering away from the boma or cave so to speak in our ancestral past. Young children that are old enough to run off, but to small to protect themselves were extremely helpless in a primitive world, so nature’s response was to train them in a virtual environment building neural pathways  to fight or flight, and to be afraid of certain things.  

Okay lecture over Hahahah. We still do this. Dreams are still a training ground for us against predation or bad situations. Of course in dreams, it can take any format. 

This person struggling has the issue of remembering the bad dreams. We are not supposed to always remember them even though the they happen at certain parts of every cycle. Typical the memory of dreams comes from how much awareness you maintain into sleep. This happens a lot with people that wake up a lot or light sleepers because their ego is always just at the surface and can grab at the images and remember them. This is why apnea sufferers are quite prone to it, but there are other issues to. Certain vitamin deficiencies, PTSD (which really is because people with trauma maintain a more alert state), and a number of other things. A good neurologist should be able to address those issues, but psychologists, normal practitioners, and even sleep doctors, are sometimes rarely knowledgeable enough to address the issue properly. A typical issue is simply a person’s body has a hard time absorbing iron, so a liquid iron supplement can fix everything. 

Now, as for lucid dreaming to learn control and promote healing. Yes. There is something that happens with your internal archetypes  that work in absolutely astonishing ways to promote healing. Shaman have been practicing these things in various ways for tens of thousands of years. It’s not woo, it’s evolution because these practices work. That is why they have withstood the test of time. There are all kinds of clinical studies utilizing altered states of consciousness going on as we speak with fantastic results. 

If nothing is working medically to reduce remembering nightmares all the time, the next approach is to gain control over the imagery. You do this through a habit of learning not to fear nightmares. I say habit, because often you are not aware in a dream, so the habit of no fear has to be a trained internal response that happens automatically. Using lucid dreams to train yourself to face your demons and develop habits, techniques, and shields is a great way to go, but it really isn’t easy. There is a lot of fortitude needed to literally go into battle with “demons” and other  issues on purpose. It’s something that must be done, however, If someone wants to free their mind from the effects of constant nightmares or in-order to do other things with their mind.

I only faith in one kind of lucid dreaming to gain control. It’s called the WILD. Wake Induced Lucid Dream. Entering into a WILD can be a profound experience for some and harrowing for others. You are accessing the deep places in a very conscious way wether you believe that to be just your mind or the deep ‘woo’ (as you put it) places. Either way, it’s a way to get there. WILD techniques are identical to Astral Projection techniques. It’s the same mental phenomenon regardless of your world view.   This is the space where you can master fear itself. You can dive into it, become it, talk with it, fight with it, then ultimately you completely surrender to it, and it no longer has any bite. After a While you can find yourself in a nightmare, and your mind will pop into an aware state, and you will simply say screw it and literally lay down in the dream to go back to sleep. Or if you become aware enough, you can toy with your nightmare scenario like a joke. 

I know that was long, but I hope it helps whoever you we’re talking to. Look up the astral projection thread. If you can’t handke the Woo references, then I suggest you read it as if all of it is simply another way of inducing and navigating WILDs.

 

 

 

   

Edited November 27, 2019 by White Crane Feather

[White Crane Feather]

On 11/6/2019 at 11:42 AM, jmccr8 said:

So I was talking to Walker in another thread and he posed that the afterlife has never existed and we will create it by downloading consciousness and either creating genetic clones or implanted in tech like androids what are your thoughts. Personally I wouldn't consider it as afterlife especially if the consciousness is downloaded into a clone that has potential to be a unique self of it's own.

jmccr8

I have put some thought into this after watching the black mirror episodes a while back. Is the downloaded consciousness really you? Seems to be the question. I think it’s going to have to be a question that we have to answer too. It may be possible in 30-50 years.

I was watching a Star Trek rerun the other night, and data said that being switched off was a little like been dead. When he rebooted was he still data or a new version with new energy fueling his flow of consciousness?

I suppose if we have a soul, then it’s a moot point. We are where our soul is. But what if our soul is really the nuances of what we are. How we react to things, our habits, our memories. Our soul can be a data set. This makes it troubling because it can be copied and distributed like a song. 

Some people say it might be about memories that makes us who we are. I have been in mental states where I can say that I was aware and still me, but I had absolutely no memory whatsoever. I have even had memories of other constructs (dream characters) with whole other backgrounds and moments of my own, and I can say it was still me. So I’m not sure my past has much to do with it. 

After considering my experiences and logically working my way through it. On a very logical level (keep in mind that I do believe in the soul, though I’m considering other alternatives here), who we are must be about memory and continuity together, but not memory of your past. Memory of self awareness. The only reason I can say that was me during those times of no memory is because I can remember now being self aware then. Memory is really a recreation. In order for me to be me, I must be able to recreate the feeling of me then in me now. The continuity of my existence is essential for me to have a flow of consciousness from one time period to another. 

May solution for the downloading of me into another body or computer then is the technology must maintain a flow of consciousness through the process. The soul will follow the data stream so to speak, and obviously the new media has to be capable of not only storing old memories, but recreating them like the brain does. If I get to be aware and maintain the continuity of awareness and step through the door of the transfer, then I think I would be satisfied that it is actually me that went through. The question would still remain after the connection is severed who is really me if the body is still there and functioning with me too in it, but I’d be satisfied living in a different media that I am still me, but just a branch of my consciousness separated from the other. Those branches can reconnect or if one dies, then it’s just a loss of one branch of a data stream and not a loss of the entity that is me. 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by White Crane Feather

[Bed of chaos]

Again, I believe u can increase lucid probability (w practice/persistence). However literally half the users (on dream sites) report 'thousands' of lucid dreams. Yet no one can easily replicate it. YouTube search engine  'lucid dream tonight'. Self help gurus, dream 'experts' pop up like bed bugs. They all begin w the same repetitive garbage 1) 'I've had hundreds/thousands of ld's (yet never previously mentioned topic) 2) You control everything..just like movie Dreamscape. It's the same when I look up piano tutorials. You see comments like 'I've never touched a piano but magically learned Spanish Caravan over the weekend'.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Bed of chaos

[Mr Walker]

18 hours ago, Sherapy said:

There is nothing wrong with reading books it has been a rich source of entertainment for you and countless others. It sounds like it extended to your dream life too. 
Thanks for sharing.

Indeed,quite true; but you seem to want to make it sound as if I have lived my life vicariously through books. I spend 2 or 3 hours a day reading and about 6 hours sleeping.

The rest of it is being lived.

And i have done as much in my life as most people, if not more, due to having the time to do so.  Not everyone gets 12 weeks holiday a year, plus 15 days accruing long service leave each year, or can afford to work half time for the last decade or so of their career   That is  LOT of time to do things in. 

[+Sherapy]

12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Indeed,quite true; but you seem to want to make it sound as if I have lived my life vicariously through books. I spend 2 or 3 hours a day reading and about 6 hours sleeping.

The rest of it is being lived.

And i have done as much in my life as most people, if not more, due to having the time to do so.  Not everyone gets 12 weeks holiday a year, plus 15 days accruing long service leave each year, or can afford to work half time for the last decade or so of their career   That is  LOT of time to do things in. 

No worries MW, I was not implying you have no life outside of books. 
 

What are you doing with your free time?
 

How do you survive on 6 hours of sleep?

I have to get at least 8 or 9.

Working in the field I am in, sleep does so much good for a person. People function better with at least 8 hrs. I honestly do worry about you especially with lucid dreaming all night. 
 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, eight bits said:

No. Early on, Freud used both das Unterbewusste and das Unbewusste (bewusst is conscious; unter is under and un is un). He came to prefer das Unbewusste, the unconscious. Jung followed suit when he and Freud were a pair, and both continued that preference after their break-up.

Nevertheless, at least among lay English speakers, subconscious is very popular, admirers of Jung being an exception. I doubt this popularity reflects some widespread taste for Freud's earliest works, so it is a choice, and fair game for psychological interpretation. This would be especially fair for a faultlessly retentive Google scholar speed reader who surely has noticed that his preferred form is a minority choice among contemporary specialists. You've even remarked on it.

So, no, the term wasn't first applied to the unconscious in order to convey subordination. (More likely, the original imagery of under-ness was meant to suggest something like hidden from view). But subconscious does connote subordination, and the connotation patently reinforces a viewpoint that is distinctively your own, and your viewpoint is exactly subordination.

You complain about other people attributing views to you, even when they are spot on. Please consider refraining from falsely attributing etymological gaffes to me.

Indeed, during my search for articles on this, over half used subconscious, either because they preferred that term or thought unconscious would confuse readers. 

You are wrong. I dont see the subconscious as subordinate. It is actually more powerful than the conscious, because it goes unnoticed and yet has a significant affect on our emotions and behaviours.

That is why i have always  felt the need to access it and control it, ALONG with controlling my conscious thoughts.

A human being should not be at the mercy of,  or driven by,  desires needs etc., which they do not even realise they possess 

Thanks for this. It would appear we actually agree, except that you feel i want to subordinate my subconscious.

I don't desire this, anymore than i strive to subjugate my conscious thoughts to my will.

Its not really subjugating my subconscious. it is learning to understand  it and then use it to manipulate itself to more productive and positive thinking  ie i dont use my conscious to subjugate my subconscious but teach my subconscious to think in different, more constructive ways 

Your previous posts strongly suggested that  i didn't know what i was talking about in using subconscious, and that you felt i was trying  to diminish its power  by using that label.

   If you didnt  mean to imply that, then indeed i misread your posts, and thanks for making it clear . 

[Mr Walker]

9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

No worries MW, I was not implying you have no life outside of books. 
 

What are you doing with your free time?
 

How do you survive on 6 hours of sleep?

I have to get at least 8 or 9.

Working in the field I am in, sleep does so much good for a person. People function better with at least 8 hrs. I honestly do worry about you especially with lucid dreaming all night. 
 

 

I am lucky with my genes My mother only needed a few hours sleep to function, and was often up after midnight cooking or doing other things.

On school camps and when playing wow i could go for several days without sleep without noticeable effect.

I have never needed a nap in the afternoon

My days are varied, but a typical one might go like this 

up at 7am

shower, read or use the computer,  turn on sprinklers etc on a summers day  go for a walk for a few ks 

Clean up all the dog poo  

get my wife breakfast  about 10 am (takes her a long while to get up get dressed and have a shower due to her stroke)  do some household chores like washing stacking dishes  putting  out small rubbish bins into the big one.  

Take the dogs for a run (about an hour) 

go to the paper shop then  bakery and read a couple of papers while having a capachino, or go to local deli and do similar, or go to pub and have a squash if the day is hot and i am not hungry  (again about an hour) 

do local shopping for milk bread etc. 

 around mid day; spend some time on UM 

do some gardening (pick fruit or veges)  weed or water 

get my wife lunch (2pm) 

watch some tv or videos/visit local friends relatives,  elderly or older people who have no other company /go into the bigger town about 40 miles away  to shop and visit siblings (these vary from day to day ) 

Late afternoon spend some more time on Um 

about 6pm prepare the evening meal and serve it and clean up 

evenings

7pm watch the news 

often read for a few hours, go to nephews to play old fashioned games,  watch a little bit of tv, spend some time on the computer. 

sometimes talk to great nieces or other relatives on the phone. 

I no longer play sports, but walk, cycle, and garden most days  We have a treadmill i can use in the winter time 

I spend several hours every day socialising in one form or another  (apart from  the time I spend with my wife) 

There are plenty of incidental chores like taking washing out of the drier, or packing/ unpacking the dishwasher or folding up clothes and putting them away, although we have some paid help with this, plus cleaning, doing the floors and with the garden.  

Go to bed about 10-11 and read on tablet or a book Go to sleep around  1 am but can be later.  ( last fri night it was 3 am, Saturday 2 am) It  just depends when i feel sleepy.

Up about 7 in the summer and about 8 in the winter.

The need for sleep varies with people as do their circadian rhythms. I suspect that due, to the difference in hormones between men and women, that  women sometimes need more sleep than men (or maybe the y have just had a harder day)  

Unless i am ill, I go to sleep within seconds of putting my light out and I wake up unaided by a alarm or anything, fully refreshed and ready for the new day

I dont quite get why you think lucid dreaming would reduce sleep effectiveness. it provides the same quality of sleep as non lucid dreaming does, but just mikes your nights a lot more interesting .  

 

 

[+Sherapy]

7 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I am lucky with my genes My mother only needed a few hours sleep to function, and was often up after midnight cooking or doing other things.

On school camps and when playing wow i could go for several days without sleep without noticeable effect.

I have never needed a nap in the afternoon

My days are varied, but a typical one might go like this 

up at 7am

shower, read or use the computer,  turn on sprinklers etc on a summers day  go for a walk for a few ks 

Clean up all the dog poo  

get my wife breakfast  about 10 am (takes her a long while to get up get dressed and have a shower due to her stroke)  do some household chores like washing stacking dishes  putting  out small rubbish bins into the big one.  

Take the dogs for a run (about an hour) 

go to the paper shop then  bakery and read a couple of papers while having a capachino, or go to local deli and do similar, or go to pub and have a squash if the day is hot and i am not hungry  (again about an hour) 

do local shopping for milk bread etc. 

 around mid day; spend some time on UM 

do some gardening (pick fruit or veges)  weed or water 

get my wife lunch (2pm) 

watch some tv or videos/visit local friends relatives,  elderly or older people who have no other company /go into the bigger town about 40 miles away  to shop and visit siblings (these vary from day to day ) 

Late afternoon spend some more time on Um 

about 6pm prepare the evening meal and serve it and clean up 

evenings

7pm watch the news 

often read for a few hours, go to nephews to play old fashioned games,  watch a little bit of tv, spend some time on the computer. 

sometimes talk to great nieces or other relatives on the phone. 

I no longer play sports, but walk, cycle, and garden most days  We have a treadmill i can use in the winter time 

I spend several hours every day socialising in one form or another  (apart from  the time I spend with my wife) 

There are plenty of incidental chores like taking washing out of the drier, or packing/ unpacking the dishwasher or folding up clothes and putting them away, although we have some paid help with this, plus cleaning, doing the floors and with the garden.  

Go to bed about 10-11 and read on tablet or a book Go to sleep around  1 am but can be later.  ( last fri night it was 3 am, Saturday 2 am) It  just depends when i feel sleepy.

Up about 7 in the summer and about 8 in the winter.

The need for sleep varies with people as do their circadian rhythms. I suspect that due, to the difference in hormones between men and women, that  women sometimes need more sleep than men (or maybe the y have just had a harder day)  

Unless i am ill, I go to sleep within seconds of putting my light out and I wake up unaided by a alarm or anything, fully refreshed and ready for the new day

I dont quite get why you think lucid dreaming would reduce sleep effectiveness. it provides the same quality of sleep as non lucid dreaming does, but just mikes your nights a lot more interesting .  

 

 

A few questions, does your wife tend to her ADL’s ( activities for daily living) herself? 

Only because I am a caregiver I have to ask. Nothing negative implied, just asking.
 

Does your wife have friends, stimulation, I read you walk with her, that is very good. 
 

What do you do to engage her? I assume you come up with something as a retired teacher you would certainly know how to engage her.

How is her pain?

It is good to read that you exercise so much and socialize. Good for you your misses needs you so much. 
 

You take good care of her, you sound like a very loving, kind and compassionate man to her. 

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

A few questions, does your wife tend to her ADL’s ( activities for daily living) herself? 

Only because I am a caregiver I have to ask. Nothing negative implied, just asking.
 

Does your wife have friends, stimulation, I read you walk with her, that is very good. 
 

What do you do to engage her? I assume you come up with something as a retired teacher you would certainly know how to engage her.

How is her pain?

It is good to read that you exercise so much and socialize. Good for you your misses needs you so much. 
 

You take good care of her, you sound like a very loving, kind and compassionate man to her. 

she can care for herself in everything, but it takes a while to do simple tasks like showering or dressing or getting into bed. 

I do more with  the household stuff because this is painful and tiring for her, and we get some care each week (about 3 hours ) 

She can no longer walk more than short distances  but much of the time I am close by.

She enjoys reading, both from  books and online and reads several books a day both from online libraries and sites  like google books kobo etc  which she gets for free.

She did have netflix but seems to have stopped watching that or  tv,   and she  listens to a lot of music online.

She has friends and relatives with whom she corresponds each week via email.

  we visit friends but not as much as we used to.

She converses with the ladies who come to help.  I bring her  widowed sister up for an  afternoon and evening once a fortnight from  a town about 30 miles away 

 She has always been an independent and self able person, and when we lived on the farm could go months without much social contact although she does enjoy some time with close friends and relatives.

We have a singing group of 6-10 people who come for an afternoon (and often an evening meal) once a month, and we have younger relatives drop in with their babies.

When i  was in hospital she had a good network of relatives, friends, and local people who looked after her.

Engagement isn't an issue. Like me, she  has long and busy days and only goes to sleep a bit earlier than me (or sometimes later if she is reading a good book)   Our 3 dogs and a cat keep her company and also give her a purpose and something to do each day

Her pain can be bad and no one has bee able to ofer a solution However she is both tough and stoic and  doesn't complain When i asked her about her pain she replied  "I am not a bloke There is no point complaining"  

.......................................

just spent 5 minutes helping her work out how to pay for books online. She said she has read 71 free books from  kobo and google play, and is now running out of free options.

Still, it is only a dollar or two per book.

Reading is one of the few things which has greatly decreased in cost over the years   

Thank you 

I love her, which explains it all, but i was also raised on a code of honor, duty, and compassion towards all, but especially family and loved ones.  .  

Edited November 28, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Bed of chaos]

15 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

I can’t seem to find who you are talking about, so ill respond here. 

A person struggling with the their dream life and lots of bad dreams can be living literally a nightmarish existence. Especially if any of it revolves around sleep paralysis. 

I’m not sure how far your conversation went, but a sleep study is absolutely essential. Apnea can cause a lot of lingering in between altered states of consciousness. There are certain parts of our REM cycles that are inherently negative and inherently positive. Typically nightmares and terrors are happening within this negative space. 

Nightmares are more than just internal conflict and all that. While psychological issues do appear in the dream world, our capacity to have nightmares is an evolved trait to build neural pathways to thwart predation.  This is why children between 3-6 often have night terror issues that can actually be pretty harrowing for even parents to watch. There brains are transitioning from a magical thinking open stage to a stage where children are naturally afraid of the dark and being alone. This isn’t just kids being kids. This protected them from wondering away from the boma or cave so to speak in our ancestral past. Young children that are old enough to run off, but to small to protect themselves were extremely helpless in a primitive world, so nature’s response was to train them in a virtual environment building neural pathways  to fight or flight, and to be afraid of certain things.  

Okay lecture over Hahahah. We still do this. Dreams are still a training ground for us against predation or bad situations. Of course in dreams, it can take any format. 

This person struggling has the issue of remembering the bad dreams. We are not supposed to always remember them even though the they happen at certain parts of every cycle. Typical the memory of dreams comes from how much awareness you maintain into sleep. This happens a lot with people that wake up a lot or light sleepers because their ego is always just at the surface and can grab at the images and remember them. This is why apnea sufferers are quite prone to it, but there are other issues to. Certain vitamin deficiencies, PTSD (which really is because people with trauma maintain a more alert state), and a number of other things. A good neurologist should be able to address those issues, but psychologists, normal practitioners, and even sleep doctors, are sometimes rarely knowledgeable enough to address the issue properly. A typical issue is simply a person’s body has a hard time absorbing iron, so a liquid iron supplement can fix everything. 

Now, as for lucid dreaming to learn control and promote healing. Yes. There is something that happens with your internal archetypes  that work in absolutely astonishing ways to promote healing. Shaman have been practicing these things in various ways for tens of thousands of years. It’s not woo, it’s evolution because these practices work. That is why they have withstood the test of time. There are all kinds of clinical studies utilizing altered states of consciousness going on as we speak with fantastic results. 

If nothing is working medically to reduce remembering nightmares all the time, the next approach is to gain control over the imagery. You do this through a habit of learning not to fear nightmares. I say habit, because often you are not aware in a dream, so the habit of no fear has to be a trained internal response that happens automatically. Using lucid dreams to train yourself to face your demons and develop habits, techniques, and shields is a great way to go, but it really isn’t easy. There is a lot of fortitude needed to literally go into battle with “demons” and other  issues on purpose. It’s something that must be done, however, If someone wants to free their mind from the effects of constant nightmares or in-order to do other things with their mind.

I only faith in one kind of lucid dreaming to gain control. It’s called the WILD. Wake Induced Lucid Dream. Entering into a WILD can be a profound experience for some and harrowing for others. You are accessing the deep places in a very conscious way wether you believe that to be just your mind or the deep ‘woo’ (as you put it) places. Either way, it’s a way to get there. WILD techniques are identical to Astral Projection techniques. It’s the same mental phenomenon regardless of your world view.   This is the space where you can master fear itself. You can dive into it, become it, talk with it, fight with it, then ultimately you completely surrender to it, and it no longer has any bite. After a While you can find yourself in a nightmare, and your mind will pop into an aware state, and you will simply say screw it and literally lay down in the dream to go back to sleep. Or if you become aware enough, you can toy with your nightmare scenario like a joke. 

I know that was long, but I hope it helps whoever you we’re talking to. Look up the astral projection thread. If you can’t handke the Woo references, then I suggest you read it as if all of it is simply another way of inducing and navigating WILDs.

 

 

 

   

White Crane Feather. I'm sorry for confusion (just noticed) Sherapy initially asked YOU dream question. I accidentally replied. Anyway I personally never had any success with WILD technique. And some argue technique can possibly cause sleep paralysis (or visual/auditory hallucinations). I honestly dont know what to believe but DILD technique worked for me numerous occasions. On dream sites that IS what some people are aiming for (inducing strange hallucinations). Anyway sorry to intrude. As Mr Walker stated everyone has to find their own way. I suppose nothing is set in stone.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Bed of chaos

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, Bed of chaos said:

Again, I believe u can increase lucid probability (w practice/persistence). However literally half the users (on dream sites) report 'thousands' of lucid dreams. Yet no one can easily replicate it. YouTube search engine  'lucid dream tonight'. Self help gurus, dream 'experts' pop up like bed bugs. They all begin w the same repetitive garbage 1) 'I've had hundreds/thousands of ld's (yet never previously mentioned topic) 2) You control everything..just like movie Dreamscape. It's the same when I look up piano tutorials. You see comments like 'I've never touched a piano but magically learned Spanish Caravan over the weekend'.

I cant speak for others but this is basically how it is for me. I no longer have any dreams where i am not aware that i am dreaming.

  While  I was working i had less dreams and lucid dreams than when i was a student and a young person, but since retirement ive  begun to have more dreams and   recall more of them as i did when young.   . I  think, when working, i was more physically tired and thus slept more deeply, and also was fully occupied with  the real world.

Both these things reduce your dreaming and lucidity 

I agree that there is a lot of nonsense on line about lucid dreaming While you can learn techniques to make it more likely, every individual has to find their own way 

[jmccr8]

13 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

I have put some thought into this after watching the black mirror episodes a while back. Is the downloaded consciousness really you? Seems to be the question. I think it’s going to have to be a question that we have to answer too. It may be possible in 30-50 years.

Hi White Crane Feather

Thanks for joining in, I do not question that scientifically we will advance and look forward to it. That said I find the process by which it will be made available interesting as it is filled with not just technical developments but social adaptations as well. At first will it be like the Romans using Christianity and the lives it consumed? Looking at it from where we are scientifically starting today it would take 25 yrs for clones to physically develop maybe less and that clone would have a sense of being an individual which would have to be destroyed in order to implant the consciousness of the donor. Psyche did bring up 3d printing human blanks which personally I think would change the potential to do so without the same ethical issues but the initial subjects would have to undergo procedures that at this time would seem to be inhuman by present standards Of course there will be volunteer donors but what about their clones if they are allowed to develop a self identity even if they were created form the donor dna? In this thread we have already determined that a clone cannot be property if it is self aware so the question remains how do we reconcile the problem?

14 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

I suppose if we have a soul, then it’s a moot point. We are where our soul is. But what if our soul is really the nuances of what we are. How we react to things, our habits, our memories. Our soul can be a data set. This makes it troubling because it can be copied and distributed like a song. 

That is part of the problem,what is soul and can it be transferred? If it cannot then yes one is making a record on one's experiences but does the significance of those experiences. All experiences exist in the past so does becoming aware in a different time and place impact that if there are multiple copies and the donor exists, could a clone reject parts of the donor life because it's body has a memory of it's own and if a soul transferred and if it cannot can it be erased so in essence all the body can be is a thumb drive for a different memory with no soul?

14 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

Some people say it might be about memories that makes us who we are. I have been in mental states where I can say that I was aware and still me, but I had absolutely no memory whatsoever. I have even had memories of other constructs (dream characters) with whole other backgrounds and moments of my own, and I can say it was still me. So I’m not sure my past has much to do with it.

I am in a different camp as I think it is the exposure to experience that makes us who we want to be, the memories to me serve a variety of functions for emotional to calculation, some working with the conscious and others with the unconscious aspects of our minds. In a sense this is a part of my curiosity about how a implanted consciousness would react to a body that has had different experiences and injuries or none at all. If the clone had a hip(or whatever) injury and the implant didn't and the body still responded according to it's physical disability how would the implant respond if it does not have a memory of the injury.

I know that was not the strongest example to use as I am sure that unless there were extenuating circumstances that any reliable system would screen clones for defects.( but then I have bought boxes of screws that had no threads)

14 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

After considering my experiences and logically working my way through it. On a very logical level (keep in mind that I do believe in the soul, though I’m considering other alternatives here), who we are must be about memory and continuity together, but not memory of your past. Memory of self awareness. The only reason I can say that was me during those times of no memory is because I can remember now being self aware then. Memory is really a recreation. In order for me to be me, I must be able to recreate the feeling of me then in me now. The continuity of my existence is essential for me to have a flow of consciousness from one time period to another. 

Agreed I can never remember of ever not being self-aware

Walker posed a question earlier and will respond to him later. Do you remember how you felt the first time you walked?

Yes. I knew that all the edibles were in that white thing and I got there, felt great and after arm-wrestling that sucker open I had carrots and celery.

14 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

May solution for the downloading of me into another body or computer then is the technology must maintain a flow of consciousness through the process. The soul will follow the data stream so to speak, and obviously the new media has to be capable of not only storing old memories, but recreating them like the brain does. If I get to be aware and maintain the continuity of awareness and step through the door of the transfer, then I think I would be satisfied that it is actually me that went through. The question would still remain after the connection is severed who is really me if the body is still there and functioning with me too in it, but I’d be satisfied living in a different media that I am still me, but just a branch of my consciousness separated from the other. Those branches can reconnect or if one dies, then it’s just a loss of one branch of a data stream and not a loss of the entity that is me. 

Yes and I have enjoyed your posts here Knowing me even If I knew I was a me and the other me existed in a different body chances are the me that donated would never see me as them because I would have a life that they could never know because it was mine and what makes me unique, why would I want you want to think that it was the you that achieved my goals.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Indeed,quite true; but you seem to want to make it sound as if I have lived my life vicariously through books. I spend 2 or 3 hours a day reading and about 6 hours sleeping.

The rest of it is being lived.

And i have done as much in my life as most people, if not more, due to having the time to do so.  Not everyone gets 12 weeks holiday a year, plus 15 days accruing long service leave each year, or can afford to work half time for the last decade or so of their career   That is  LOT of time to do things in. 

Hi Walker

You have no idea how glad I am that you are active here. I have been busy and not able to respond and just got word that I have to be packed and ready to go by 7 am so will make detailed responses when I get back as I still want to get g catch up on reading and take time to make reasonable responses to you. You have made some interesting comments that I would like to get into when time is available.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Bed of chaos said:

White Crane Feather. I'm sorry for confusion (just noticed) Sherapy initially asked YOU dream question. I accidentally replied.

Hi Bed of Chaos

 Your input is welcome and there will be a variety of topics discussed in this thread that are relevant to what is perception with Walker's concept which entails many aspects. The fact that you care enough to have a position and express it has a value that is appreciated and thank you.

jmccr8

[White Crane Feather]

3 hours ago, Bed of chaos said:

White Crane Feather. I'm sorry for confusion (just noticed) Sherapy initially asked YOU dream question. I accidentally replied. Anyway I personally never had any success with WILD technique. And some argue technique can possibly cause sleep paralysis (or visual/auditory hallucinations). I honestly dont know what to believe but DILD technique worked for me numerous occasions. On dream sites that IS what some people are aiming for (inducing strange hallucinations). Anyway sorry to intrude. As Mr Walker stated everyone has to find their own way. I suppose nothing is set in stone.

Yes “strange hallucinations”  exist in that space where consciousness is laid raw. A universe where your minds is god, and everything it reacts to and creates is manifest. Hahaha what better place to gain control and understanding of self. Hahah of course sometimes you are wisked off and given tasks by divine beings hahaha, but that could just be fantasy or psychosis.

One time I was feeling particularly awful. I took a shower and laid down and initiated the meditations for a WILD. Instead of floating out of my body, I sunk down. Obviously a manifestation of my current mental state. I was basically like under ground and I could feel all my flesh as rotting filth. Especially my teeth for some reason, I felt like I was rotting corpse of nothing.

The suddenly something reaches down and pulled me up into what I can only describe as a different plane. I could see sort of the matrix of stars and earth like scenes in a matrix sitting underneath me under a smooth transparent barrier. Right when I was pulled up I heard the words “Why are you living there?” With it came a download of what the words meant. Why was I not living from a higher perspective. It’s hard to explain and I’ll spare you my long windedness. In this plane above, there was a bright shimmering object that I think the voice came from. It was so bright, yet I could still look at it it was also very warm. 

To this day every time I start feeling bad or negative thoughts creep my way, I hear it again. And I can still see the shining object imprinted in my mind. It’s a very powerful experience to have. This is what I’m talking about. Hallucinations are random. Life changing interaction with the deep archetypes  happen in altered states of consciousness. For those looking to master the random negative imagery generated by our ‘lizard brain’, it can be a way to go. But yes, it is not for the meek. 

 

[Bed of chaos]

21 minutes ago, White Crane Feather said:

Yes “strange hallucinations”  exist in that space where consciousness is laid raw. A universe where your minds is god, and everything it reacts to and creates is manifest. Hahaha what better place to gain control and understanding of self. Hahah of course sometimes you are wisked off and given tasks by divine beings hahaha, but that could just be fantasy or psychosis.

One time I was feeling particularly awful. I took a shower and laid down and initiated the meditations for a WILD. Instead of floating out of my body, I sunk down. Obviously a manifestation of my current mental state. I was basically like under ground and I could feel all my flesh as rotting filth. Especially my teeth for some reason, I felt like I was rotting corpse of nothing.

The suddenly something reaches down and pulled me up into what I can only describe as a different plane. I could see sort of the matrix of stars and earth like scenes in a matrix sitting underneath me under a smooth transparent barrier. Right when I was pulled up I heard the words “Why are you living there?” With it came a download of what the words meant. Why was I not living from a higher perspective. It’s hard to explain and I’ll spare you my long windedness. In this plane above, there was a bright shimmering object that I think the voice came from. It was so bright, yet I could still look at it it was also very warm. 

To this day every time I start feeling bad or negative thoughts creep my way, I hear it again. And I can still see the shining object imprinted in my mind. It’s a very powerful experience to have. This is what I’m talking about. Hallucinations are random. Life changing interaction with the deep archetypes  happen in altered states of consciousness. For those looking to master the random negative imagery generated by our ‘lizard brain’, it can be a way to go. But yes, it is not for the meek. 

 

That sounds awesome. A creative tactic to combat negativity (or even something like depression) What exactly is that shiny object? God? Jungian archetype? You? Is it worth investigating? I do like to see others dream logs/experiences. I no longer practice lucid dreams. When I did (agreed) so many insane experiences (angels crashing through my ceiling)  Everyone's got stories. I view lucid dreams as uncharted territory. Perhaps I'm superstitious but how can we pigeonhole something just proven a few decades ago. I sense there's really no dogma for the dreamworld. Read earlier today "I am extremely superstitious, sufficiently so to respect medicine, anyway, I am well educated enough not to be superstitious, but I am superstitious" (Notes from Underground).

[White Crane Feather]

8 hours ago, Bed of chaos said:

That sounds awesome. A creative tactic to combat negativity (or even something like depression) What exactly is that shiny object? God? Jungian archetype? You? Is it worth investigating? I do like to see others dream logs/experiences. I no longer practice lucid dreams. When I did (agreed) so many insane experiences (angels crashing through my ceiling)  Everyone's got stories. I view lucid dreams as uncharted territory. Perhaps I'm superstitious but how can we pigeonhole something just proven a few decades ago. I sense there's really no dogma for the dreamworld. Read earlier today "I am extremely superstitious, sufficiently so to respect medicine, anyway, I am well educated enough not to be superstitious, but I am superstitious" (Notes from Underground).

I take the lessons of some of my Native American ancestors only in a modern context. I keep one foot in each world and go with the most useful at the time. In context, yes the great spirit has shown me where I really come from and I can live from that higher perspective anytime I choose. In the other context a deep and powerful archetype has been accessed as a coping mechanism I suspect. Yes no dogma. It’s usually pretty useless. 

While these are naturally induced altered states, at the moment there are many clinical studies starting in the US that are staring to show how chemically induced altered states are in some cases a complete cure for some mental illnesses like depression, PTSD, and other mood based issues. The western world is starting to wake up to the potential that the mind can heal itself if it can obtain the proper access to itself. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by White Crane Feather

[jmccr8]

On 11/26/2019 at 6:54 PM, Mr Walker said:

The cosmic conscientiousness can come in a mental  form or manifest in any physical. form

Hi Walker

How would one demonstrate this in a physical world?

On 11/26/2019 at 6:54 PM, Mr Walker said:

In my mind it has a stored template in an advanced consciousnesses (either organic or artificial) and then uses energy to both produce a form, and transmit it somewhere.

When you say in my mind are you saying from my perspective? If not by what means can you state template because isn't that just a construct similar to your love/hate or fear/no fear examples that you previously used? Basically you have inferred that everything is a construct so why would anyone's construct be right or wrong based on it's subjective nature?

On 11/26/2019 at 6:54 PM, Mr Walker said:

It might do so with a full body, or just a thought, or an energy form, like light sound or kinetic energy.

Or it might be a subjective construct

On 11/26/2019 at 6:54 PM, Mr Walker said:

Given tha t some manifestations are messengers, I suspect the host sometimes takes a form which is authoritative, and also attractive, in order  to improve the chances the message will be accepted   

So why is Lucifer portrayed as a pretty boy

As you know I am of the position that if there is no demonstrable evidence at this time and most stories of messengers are tied to religious constructs that are know to be not accurate descriptions of history even you infer that others not you would see your alien as a god

On 11/26/2019 at 6:54 PM, Mr Walker said:

The hospital angel was not human, in that it dematerialised off a fifth floor balcony (or it was human but using some very advanced technology)

So what was it, an alien, a god, and an angel have specific descriptions that do not resemble each other as the qualities that define them are unique.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

How would one demonstrate this in a physical world?

When you say in my mind are you saying from my perspective? If not by what means can you state template because isn't that just a construct similar to your love/hate or fear/no fear examples that you previously used? Basically you have inferred that everything is a construct so why would anyone's construct be right or wrong based on it's subjective nature?

Or it might be a subjective construct

So why is Lucifer portrayed as a pretty boy

As you know I am of the position that if there is no demonstrable evidence at this time and most stories of messengers are tied to religious constructs that are know to be not accurate descriptions of history even you infer that others not you would see your alien as a god

So what was it, an alien, a god, and an angel have specific descriptions that do not resemble each other as the qualities that define them are unique.

jmccr8

first, mental contact would be it speaking in your mind.

Physical/material contact would be it producing a messenger of some form transmitting it to you  and then having it speak to you.

yes i meant from my perspective. 

Others not only would, but do, have different constructs when they have a similar encounter This is true when two people encounter a horse or a dog.

The y construct individual perceptions of the same animal

I pointed out where my construct originated from.  (Extensive reading of science fiction, plus a good general knowldge of science) A person from  just  200 years ago, who had an identical encounter, could not possibly have perceived it, as i did, in the second half of the twentieth century

  I've never met lucifer  ive never even encoutered the true evil whicperonifies the devil in some human beings I think that  is because i am protected from all such evil by the "angels" watching over me, protecting me from physical and mental harm and preventing evil from entering our lives. 

(Or i have just been absolutely incredibly lucky to have lived in this world for 67 years and never once encountered evil incarnate in human form )

In the story he was beautiful, and loved, and powerful ,but he wanted to take over the rule of heaven from  god, and instigated a galactic war.  In the story he got one third of the angels to follow him, and so he was clearly charismatic, charming, and probably devilishly good looking   

You have never experienced demonstrable evidence so that, for you, your position is logical. It would be  logically impossible for me to hold your pov,  having experienced what i have.

I have my own thoughts, based on what i have experienced.

I do not know, but i suspect that "angels," for example, are actually avatars or extensions of "god" /the cosmic consciousness 

The real, powerful presence/force /power, known to Christians as the holy spirit is another  type of avatar 

Sometimes you get the whole package. ie a material avatar, with the power of the spirit to perform miracles Ie an entity with the technological capacity to alter the physical reality of your world.

   Sometimes you just get one form of power or energy eg you might be pushed out of the way of danger, or invisible hands might take your steering wheel and steer you out of a disaster  Sometimes you just get a message; eg a warning to stop or look at the road behind you or to tell you that  there is a big truck on the wrong side of the road around the next corner.   Sometimes it is just a presence and no voice 

so no, IMO;  Angels,  spirits and gods, are not individual or unique. The y are all different manifestations of the one entity ie the cosmic consciousness or, to believers, "god"

  That is just an informed opinion, based on 40 plus years of interacting with these " agents"or avatars , listening to them, observing them, and taking their advice, help and protection  

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

first, mental contact would be it speaking in your mind.

Hi Walker

Yes, but then it cannot be demonstrated. I am going to give this as an example, when we opened the first halfway-house for women in my home town we had a client that spoke out loud to imaginary rock stars and had some interesting discussions oblivious of the real people that were sitting right beside her. That continued until she received shock treatments and then the voices went away and she spoke to us in the real world so you understand how I feel about hearing voices. I talk to myself a fair bit and at no time do I suggest that there is any other than myself even when I use interesting voices to make it fun.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Physical/material contact would be it producing a messenger of some form transmitting it to you  and then having it speak to you.

Then this should be something that can be observed and demonstrated and as I said earlier that there is no evidence to suggest that this has occurred at present.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

yes i meant from my perspective.

Thank you for clarifying.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Others not only would, but do, have different constructs when they have a similar encounter This is true when two people encounter a horse or a dog.

The y construct individual perceptions of the same animal

If my cousin Pat and I were asked to describe his horse Babette we would both say that she was 11 hands, bay female with a white diamond on her brow and socks so obviously we  we have the same visual construct although because it was his horse there would be differences in how we interpret her personality. The same thing for his dog Sport we would both describe the same physically observable traits without variation and identify him from a photo as the same dog.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I pointed out where my construct originated from.  (Extensive reading of science fiction, plus a good general knowldge of science) A person from  just  200 years ago, who had an identical encounter, could not possibly have perceived it, as i did, in the second half of the twentieth century

I would consider that as subjective interpretation because you are projecting what a long dead person might think without actually knowing, a construct within a construct is how I interpret your example.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 ive never even encoutered the true evil whicperonifies the devil in some human beings

I have and that is in part why we disagree on some issues and why I take the time to study everyone with a critical eye.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I think that  is because i am protected from all such evil by the "angels" watching over me, protecting me from physical and mental harm and preventing evil from entering our lives.

Or it could be that your environment is less precarious than those of others and I am not saying this as a detriment to you, you have no idea how fortunate you are given my observations from my environment.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

In the story he was beautiful, and loved, and powerful ,but he wanted to take over the rule of heaven from  god, and instigated a galactic war.  In the story he got one third of the angels to follow him, and so he was clearly charismatic, charming, and probably devilishly good looking 

Yes that is the story according to one (the only) source, to me if Lucifer had dominion over the earth as described with his vanity I would have expected him to have made more demands about being worshipped by humans than religious history talks about.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You have never experienced demonstrable evidence so that, for you, your position is logical. It would be  logically impossible for me to hold your pov,  having experienced what i have.

I have had experiences that I can't explain but that doesn't mean that they cannot be so I do not credit unknown or unproven entities just because it is the easy answer.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I have my own thoughts, based on what i have experienced.

I am quite sure we all do.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I do not know, but i suspect that "angels," for example, are actually avatars or extensions of "god" /the cosmic consciousness 

The real, powerful presence/force /power, known to Christians as the holy spirit is another  type of avatar 

I don't know for sure either but am willing to look for answers from within the context of the environment that they occurred in and at this time have seen no reason give absolute credit to constructs that are known to be created by men like you and me.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Sometimes you get the whole package. ie a material avatar, with the power of the spirit to perform miracles Ie an entity with the technological capacity to alter the physical reality of your world.

And if they are that powerful then there should be evidence that supports their existence in the physical world.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Sometimes you just get one form of power or energy eg you might be pushed out of the way of danger, or invisible hands might take your steering wheel and steer you out of a disaster  Sometimes you just get a message; eg a warning to stop or look at the road behind you or to tell you that  there is a big truck on the wrong side of the road around the next corner.   Sometimes it is just a presence and no voice 

Gee you know when I fell off that building the only thing that stopped me was the ground and spent 18 yrs fighting to get surgery afterwards and can recall a great many others that shared similar experiences and those cases are documented.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

so no, IMO;  Angels,  spirits and gods, are not individual or unique. The y are all different manifestations of the one entity ie the cosmic consciousness or, to believers, "god"

I would think that if you read the relevant religious doctrine you will find that they are separate, why would angels rebel against god if they were god? Aliens are a different can of stew and as you yourself have stated that your alien is not immortal nor is it omnipresent which are aspects of god so no they cannot be claimed to be the same entity.

jmccr8