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jmccr8

Afterlife, digital copies or clones

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Sherapy
7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

She doesn't have a taste for dirty old men, does she?

Lol :P

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

I think he just means that having a lot of experience in many areas does infer more advantage. 

For ex: Using Jay as an example. He has a lot more experience in a lot of areas compared to the rest of us, not that he is better...
 

But this does give an ability to adapt to all kinds of circumstances and a confidence in ones competence that doesn’t need constant watering, this enables a natural popularity.

 

 

 

 

And I think he assumed  that somehow I have less experience of life, especially practical experience in the world.

I dispute that,  but i believe he took how he PERCEIVES me to be and ran with that   The perception has some truth but a lot of error. 

your last  comment is value based jumbled nonsense

Somehow you imply that my  (perceived) lack of experience means i lack  confidence and competence, and thus have to seek it online Nothing could be further from the truth   My life has bred in me almost total confidence and competence in my life. Thanks to my parents teaching and belief in me  I've known since i was a child that there is nothing i could not achieve if i put my mind to it, and was prepared to invest the time and effort required to achieve it.

  Just because i chose one path in life which suited my personality and love of people and teaching  doesn't mean i haven't lived other lives within  that path  or that i dont have the confidence and skills to live and survive almost anywhere. (getting a bit old for that now but could still do so if i had to) :)  eg put me on a desert  island and i could make fire,   hunt fish trap and desalinate water  using only the resources on the island  to survive. I could make water catchments and shelters and cooking utensils. 

Put me in the city without a home or any money  and i wouldn't like it much but i could survive, maybe even more easily, because there are more resources to hand, and because i am very good with people.

Whats popularity got to do with anything?

 First be yourself and stay true to yourself.  If that makes you popular, so be it. if it makes you unpopular, then still be yourself .       

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

:wub:

Hi Sherapy

Thanks and yes that is exactly what I was getting at that we are different and even then I might not be a suitable candidate as there are things that I would have trouble dealing with like sex for one thing or rather the lack of not to mention the sense experience of the smell and feel of a fresh talced, oiled scented woman that dressed just for me.:D

jmccr8

 

i did say i would require a body with full sensory inputs :) 

However sex is generally overrated.   Even excellent and varied sex :)  

The social element is important, but the physical can be found in many ways  

Still, no reason why an android couldn't enjoy full sexual participation, maybe even with heightened sensory perceptions

 

 

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jmccr8
7 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Well the comments didn't apply to me so I had to assume the y were constructs built on your own understandings and experiences

Hi Walker

Good your back, we are just exploring concepts here so much of what we are talking about is highly subjective.

9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Never considered you ere talking down to me but i do think you've misinterpreted my character.  I like company but i dont need it to validate myslef I have adequate resources in my own mind to keep me busy all the rest of my life, if i had to live alone.

Okay great you understand that it is not a personal affront.:tu:

I never suggested that you needed them to validate you What I am saying is that if it was a tech just starting to be used that there are going to be some very big challenges for the first ones selected to be implanted into an android body and until enough time and experience socially with this tech there will be differences as people may not see a human when looking at an android.

16 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You are right I would not choose to live alone for years because, to me, it is part of being human; to love, share, and live with others.  but i could do and be happy if I had to I dont care about others

I think a person in a machine would care and may feel potentially isolated within a community. Have you read the "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant". Thomas contracted leprosy and the community did not want him around, he lived on a property on the outskirts or just out of town and the town people paid his utilities, dropped groceries at the end of the driveway and shunned him socially and it wore on him and the reader could feel his rejection.

These are the types of things a new life form would have to live work and adapt to and why I am telling you it's not easy peasy there are some significant challenges ahead for both the individual and the the community that will be factors in a selection process.

25 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

It is how i treat others. i don't see race gender or physical appearance. I see a mind and a behaviour, and i pick my company(  individual and community) based on how a person behaves and what sort of values and ethics the y have    I dont know nor am i worried about how my community might see me.

It doesn't matter how you treated people in the past in your community and there is a strong likelihood that you would not be allowed to go back home and be asked to integrate in a completely different location. Remember that you will be the subject of study and would likely deal with people in that particular industry it's not like buying a new suit and going on about your business.

29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

But anyway I dont see it as an issue given that all my neighbours might have had the same treatment.   It would be like swapping tales about our implanted pacemakers and defibrillators and artificial  valves etc   Eg "How does your GE positronic brain feel?  I am really happy with my Sanyo one, especially since i had the latest upgrade  " :) 

I wouldn't be so sure on that at this time given that you would be among the first.

jmccr8

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jmccr8
21 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

But no slef aware being can be treated as property,. whether it is organic or mechanical   

Hi Walker

And yet you have said that you would keep a clone and use it as you see fit, to me that implies that it is seen as a possession. Here is a thought you wipe a clone of it's being and replace it with you then someone decides that they need your body and wants to evict you and take possession what is the difference between hitting the delete button on either one of you in that instance?

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Also cloning for evolutionary advantage some basics matter, brawn, brains, sex appeal and probably reproductive advantage.

My sister is engaged to this guy 7 years now and the relationship is not intimate and I asked her how does this work, why would you consider marrying the guy  (they are in there 50s ) she said and I quote “you have to find someone attractive to even want to be intimate with them”  I personally, could not accept being in a sexless situation and therefore would not be a good match.

Jay, what are your thoughts on this? 
 

 

While i respect and honour your views they are not mine.

As ive said before due to various medical conditions of my wife,  I haven't had sex with my wife for over 20 years  I was engaged to her for about 4 years and we never had sex until we married (that value and ethical commitment  is part of what i love about her.)

I would have trouble being married to  woman to whom sex was more important  than other values (and i nearly got caught in that trap as a young man a couple of times,  but luckily escaped it )  

The relationship is still the same, and the love, respect, partnership,  and commitment is the same.

There are many older people who marry and have long commitments together without sex, because the relationship fulfils more important human needs

An uncle of my wife married  his third wife while he was in his nineties, and she was a decade or so younger. He was rich, and a good provider, and she was a good, loving, and loyal  wife. But sex wasn't on the agenda  He still outlived her, as he had his first two wives. 

 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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jmccr8
20 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Thank you, sexless marriages generally have some issue, it is not the normal to be okay with a sexless marriage. 
My Dad’s new gf is 80 and she has opened my Dad up in an intimate sense. He is a new person. 

Older folks do enjoy sex and are having it. 

Hi Sherapy

Yup, sugar is sweeter than salt and good for your dad and his girl.:D:tsu:

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

My ex was real uptight too, he had a lot of insecurities that got in the way of celebrating our sexual essence. 
 

Like you I have to be with a person who is open and adaptable sexually. For ex: hypothetically if we had issues that got in the way I would want a partner who had imagination and flexibility.  Abstinence is out of the question, I think not to be desired or wanted would play havoc on ones self esteem. I know a lot of couples no one in real life martyrs themselves when it comes to intimacy,.

The idea that you see it as martyrdom is truly weird, but maybe explained by your first marriage.  

It is about love, respect,  commitment, honour, and duty.

  I admit; If one of a couple WANTED sex, and the other could give it but refused to,  that would put a strain on the relationship. But sex itself is not a critical part of any loving marriage or relationship I dont need sex to feel desired, loved, needed or wanted. I doubt my wife could live without me  :)    and i would find it very hard to live without her 

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Habitat
12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

However sex is generally overrated.   

When I was working in a place with a few "old" guys in their 50's ( they seem old when you're 20) and they would say stuff like that, I'd think they were crazy. Still reckon they were that little bit crazy ! Probably all the smoking they were doing

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jmccr8
11 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

i did say i would require a body with full sensory inputs :) 

However sex is generally overrated.   Even excellent and varied sex :)  

The social element is important, but the physical can be found in many ways  

Still, no reason why an android couldn't enjoy full sexual participation, maybe even with heightened sensory perceptions

 

 

Hi Walker

The reality is the tech we have now is a sexbot that can roll it's eyes and talk so I'm thinking the first android models will not be built for pleasure receptors or functional equipment hence my dismay and lack of enthusiasm. Sex may be oh well humdrum for you but I am not built that way.:D

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

 

He sounds a bit unusual, to accept that situation, to say the least. I was watching a show about some young women who were staunch Catholics, one was 32 and single, a ripping sort really, very articulate, but was non-negotiable on "chaste until married". She was finding it difficult  find anyone who would accept that. It would certainly reduce the field of possible husbands

 

but increase the quality of those suitable :) 

I would now never marry a woman who was prepared to have sex with me before marriage ( might have done when i was quite young)   Because then, how could i know that she valued the marriage vows and would remain faithful  to them for all our lives. 

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Habitat
Just now, Mr Walker said:

but increase the quality of those suitable :) 

I would now never marry a woman who was prepared to have sex with me before marriage ( might have done when i was quite young)   Because then, how could i know that she valued the marriage vows and would remain faithful  to them for all our lives. 

Well, maybe, or maybe not. The reasons for chastity in the past were related to unreliability of contraception, and the "social death" of pregnancy out of wedlock. Much has changed, and whilst loose and fast is not attractive, neither is unnecessary restraint.

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Mr Walker
55 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Habitat

 Of course that is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexless_marriage

Causes[edit]

Sexless marriages can develop over time from a range of possible causes. According to psychotherapist Tina Tessina, "The most common causes of sexless marriages (are that) one partner had their feelings hurt or got turned down too many times; one got too busy or neglectful; or one or both partners has a communication problem of some sort."[1] Clinical sexologist Judith Steinhart notes that "Problems in a marriage (like) lack of trust, anxiety, misunderstandings, pressure from children, all can affect a couple's sexual patterns."[1]

Some couples may have sexless marriages because they have different work schedules or busy lives. For couples with children, especially young children, the demands of childbearing and child rearing can lead to stress and exhaustion. Fatigue or exhaustion can also arise from other causes, such as chronic fatigue syndrome.

Adultery can lead to a sexless marriage in two ways: it can cause the partner having the affair to have reduced sexual interest in their spouse, and if the affair is discovered, the "innocent" spouse may cease to want to be intimate with the cheating spouse.

Sexual aversion or "a low level of sexual desire" includes a lack of sexual vitality due to age, past trauma, partners' incompatible sexual orientation or, simply, one of the spouses losing sexual interest in the regular companion.

Sexual dysfunction or difficulty during any stage of the sexual act includes but is not limited to severe vaginismus or erectile dysfunction, and lack of sensations, desire or ability to achieve orgasm resulting as side effects from medication or illegal drugs. Some antidepressant drugs such as SSRIs can cause difficulty with achieving an erection or an orgasm. Sexless marriages can be caused by post-pregnancy issues and hormonal imbalances, which can be temporary or permanent in nature, or by illness of one or both partners that affect physical or psychological sexuality (e.g., clinical depression of one or both partners).

A marriage may also be sexless if one or both partners are asexual or if the couple mutually agrees to abstain from sex due to religious principles, avoidance of sexually transmitted diseases, a platonic basis for the relationship or the goal of avoiding conception. Other reasons for sexless marriages are resentment in the relationship due to an imbalance of duties, responsibilities (moral, spiritual and religious); incompatible ideal, spiritual, moral and behavioral aspects.

Some chronic marital conflict can generate a state of permanent hostility that prevents or blocks sexual expression. It's usually the partner who behaves in a passive aggressive way the one who blocks sexual intercourse as punishment for some imaginary or real slight received from the other. Partners then feel resentment because of the perceived rejection by the partner who lost interest in sexual communication. Loneliness, anger and self-esteem lowering are normal reactions by a person feeling their sexual human needs frustrated by the voluntary rejection from partner.[3]

Some couples may be married solely for legal purposes or tax benefits, i.e. what is colloquially called a marriage of convenience. For example, in the US a spouse is entitled to Green Card if married to an American citizen or permanent resident. Another reason for a "marriage of convenience" is the lavender marriage, which conceals the homosexual or bisexual orientation of one or both spouses.

Habituation can be an important factor as well.[4] Frequency of intercourse tends to diminish over time, especially after 1–2 years of marriage. Sex takes place with the same person all the time in the same way. Novelty and interest can be lost, and routine may dominate.[citation needed]

See also[edit]

jmccr8

gee That list is all very negative 

How about they stay married but don't have sex  because other elements of the marriage are more important and remain successful , even when sex is not possible? 

 None of those reasons really apply to me, except my wife's inability to have sex, and of doctors to be able to fix the problem. 

There is no anger, resentment, or psychological trauma. It is just how life can be sometimes. 

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danydandan
5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

but increase the quality of those suitable :) 

I would now never marry a woman who was prepared to have sex with me before marriage ( might have done when i was quite young)   Because then, how could i know that she valued the marriage vows and would remain faithful  to them for all our lives. 

You can't know, you still can't know. It's called faith. 

So what would you do? Initiate a sexual advance then what pull out of it just before you get in? Then spring the ole "you ***** I can't marry you!" Line?

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Mr Walker
Just now, Habitat said:

Well, maybe, or maybe not. The reasons for chastity in the past were related to unreliability of contraception, and the "social death" of pregnancy out of wedlock. Much has changed, and whilst loose and fast is not attractive, neither is unnecessary restraint.

Its about my own personal values  and ethics and expectations I made a marriage vow, as did my wife eg to love honour protect etc.  We were serious and saw that commitment for a lifetime, like our parents and all or ancestors and families.  it was a commitment before family, friends, and god, and if it wasn't meant to be kept for life, it  shouldn't have been made.  

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

gee That list is all very negative 

How about they stay married but don't have sex  because other elements of the marriage are more important and remain successful , even when sex is not possible? 

 None of those reasons really apply to me, except my wife's inability to have sex, and of doctors to be able to fix the problem. 

There is no anger, resentment, or psychological trauma. It is just how life can be sometimes. 

Hi Walker

Thanks for the input as you have more experience in this area than I do and just to note my post was not directed at you.:tu:

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
52 minutes ago, danydandan said:

You can't know, you still can't know. It's called faith. 

So what would you do? Initiate a sexual advance then what pull out of it just before you get in? Then spring the ole "you ***** I can't marry you!" Line?

I can know from  the experience of my life i LIVE by my values and ethics I could no more break one of them than shoot myself 

And i dont get your last query.  

When i was younger (18-21) and didn't understand  some things, I had sex with willing girls, without commitment  I learned that this tells you something about your own character and the woman's 

By the time i met my wife to be, and fell madly in love with her,  I was committed to a faithful relationship, even before we were married AND, because it is was what she wanted, to not  having "full"  sex until we were married.  Quite a few young female teachers offered sex with me during that engagement. (well we re all young then; in our early to mid twenties)  There were a lot of beautiful young single female teachers in whyalla. I would escort them to the  pictures and  sporting and social events,  for male company and sometimes protection. or to prevent them being harassed by other men   A lot of them were lonely, maybe sexually frustrated,  and socially isolated There were few eligible young  men in a basically working   class town.  I was young attractive handsome, and one of them (a teacher)  so i got lots of offers 

The y were disappointed, and  a little envious, when i explained why i would not.  Some saying how lucky my fiance was. 

 After i was married i had other offers and turned them down. We had a full, loving and exciting, sexual life for about 30 years   When i was 55 and my wife was 63 she developed a medical condition which made sex impossible, and which could not be fixed  

So i have had 25 years without sex. i have a normal libido,  but its not a worry for me,

I dont feel any anger, resentment, or annoyance  She meets all the IMPORTANT needs of a partner and wife.

  i could have had sex with a number  of lonely attractive  and willing older women, or hired prostitutes  I never even considered either. I had made a promise to my wife which, IMO, bound us until death.

She honoured them, (her vows) and i could do no less.

so you see I KNOW how i would respond, because its how I HAVE responded for all of our marriage.

   Highly unlikely anything would change now,  even after a stroke has largely immobilised her left side. 

So you see while i find your comments understandable  given some modern  values  I also find them  a bit offensive because  (as the y stand) they  devalue the love and relationship i have for /with, my wife. It is not your fault. it is just modern values and ethics.   

even back then some women just couldn't understand why i would turn  down uncommitted sex  with them purely for fun  That made me realise that their values were not mine and thus i would not be happy being married to any of them. 

Short answer  to what i would do?

i would do what i have done for almost 50 years  Say no, politely  and gently  and explain WHY i was refusing their kind and generous offer, and that it was not because i did not find them desirable, valuable, and decent people. Just that i love my wife and would never break my vow to her, to have  no other woman besides her , EVER . 

  This explanation has brought a number of women to tears, but I have never had one get angry, after explaining my reasons  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
32 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Thanks for the input as you have more experience in this area than I do and just to note my post was not directed at you.:tu:

jmccr8

na it wasn't you, just the source which was very negative. 

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Thank you, sexless marriages generally have some issue, it is not the normal to be okay with a sexless marriage. 
My Dad’s new gf is 80 and she has opened my Dad up in an intimate sense. He is a new person. 

Older folks do enjoy sex and are having it. 

lol its perfectly  normal You are conditioned to believe sex is very important  and indeed more important than  many other human needs.

It is NOT 

There are many circumstances where a couple has a good normal marriage without sex.

It is more common in older people but found across all age groups.  

Indeed historically, apart from producing children, many women were not required to have sex with their  husbands, because that pleasure (or duty)   fell  to the mistress or  a prostitute.

  Newsweek polls indicate that about 20 % of modern couples have a sex less marriage and another 20% report having sex only a few times a year (there may be some overlap here as a sexless marriage is sometimes defined as one with very rare sexual intimacy ) 

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Good your back, we are just exploring concepts here so much of what we are talking about is highly subjective.

Okay great you understand that it is not a personal affront.:tu:

I never suggested that you needed them to validate you What I am saying is that if it was a tech just starting to be used that there are going to be some very big challenges for the first ones selected to be implanted into an android body and until enough time and experience socially with this tech there will be differences as people may not see a human when looking at an android.

I think a person in a machine would care and may feel potentially isolated within a community. Have you read the "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant". Thomas contracted leprosy and the community did not want him around, he lived on a property on the outskirts or just out of town and the town people paid his utilities, dropped groceries at the end of the driveway and shunned him socially and it wore on him and the reader could feel his rejection.

These are the types of things a new life form would have to live work and adapt to and why I am telling you it's not easy peasy there are some significant challenges ahead for both the individual and the the community that will be factors in a selection process.

It doesn't matter how you treated people in the past in your community and there is a strong likelihood that you would not be allowed to go back home and be asked to integrate in a completely different location. Remember that you will be the subject of study and would likely deal with people in that particular industry it's not like buying a new suit and going on about your business.

I wouldn't be so sure on that at this time given that you would be among the first.

jmccr8

Yes i ve read all those books I found them exceedingly slow in their plot lines eg it took about 100 pages for one party to move a short distance down a river)   but my wife loved them 

I will just have to disagree about community. Ive never found people to be like that.

why on earth would i be barred from my community  especially if many others like me lived in it 

Iam assuming tha t, if I have access to this technology it is available to the general public, and many will be using it. 

By then everyone wlll have android servants and helpers to assist withe elderly and frail 

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third_eye
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No And again you must have a problem with language to ifer thet

You seems to be experiencing some form of malfunction there, maybe you should download whatever you downloaded again

~

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No Having a healthy ego means i would prefer someone difernt to myself to complement my own skills and  make uo for my weakness.

Liar, you always insisted on not having any weaknesses 

~

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I dont require a clone of myself to validate myself. 

Might as well, a clone of yourself might just commit suicide at the first opportunity knowing it's a clone of you. 

~

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I always tell the truth. If you dont believe me, prove me wrong. 

You just did, one honest question, why doesn't your fantastically incredible alien godlike beings give your missus that kind of healing that they so constantly applies to you as you so claim so that your missus can also fully enjoy your superbly enjoyable personality , physically in a sexually pleasurable manner? They can't or won't? 

Was it her idea or yours? 

You are not hiding a clone of somebody for your naughty time are you? That's adulterous, even if it's just a clone with a copy of her consciousness downloaded into it's memory and not some specifically designed android for sexual functions, or more accurately, dysfunction. 

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Habitat
7 minutes ago, third_eye said:

You seems to be experiencing some form of malfunction there, maybe you should download whatever you downloaded again

~

Liar, you always insisted on not having any weaknesses 

~

Might as well, a clone of yourself might just commit suicide at the first opportunity knowing it's a clone of you. 

~

You just did, one honest question, why doesn't your fantastically incredible alien godlike beings give your missus that kind of healing that they so constantly applies to you as you so claim so that your missus can also fully enjoy your superbly enjoyable personality , physically in a sexually pleasurable manner? They can't or won't? 

Was it her idea or yours? 

You are not hiding a clone of somebody for your naughty time are you? That's adulterous, even if it's just a clone with a copy of her consciousness downloaded into it's memory and not some specifically designed android for sexual functions, or more accurately, dysfunction. 

You do know this is an obsession, don't you ?

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Rlyeh
19 hours ago, eight bits said:

On a point that has arisen more than once: I think it is material to the usefulness of the "transporter problem" version of the hypothetical that the original is destroyed. Even in the episode you mentioned, while each Riker is somewhat inconvenient for the other Riker, they are sufficiently different that neither ultimately threatens the sense of personal identity of the other. It would be a ramped-up version of discovering that I had an identical twin after all. Hugely interesting to me, maybe eerie (no doubt there would be many coincidences in our biographies), but in the end, I'm eight bits and he's greenback byte.

I haven't seen the episode but from what I get 8 years had past since they discovered the copy Riker.

You wouldn't be that different at first.  Your twin's memories being identical up to the point of you stepping into the "transporter". 

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third_eye
5 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You do know this is an obsession, don't you ?

I know you love to love me but you need not change your allegiance or stop worshipping your lord, be as thou pleases, it pleases me that thou art the bloomed fruit of thy desire... 

~

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Habitat
3 minutes ago, third_eye said:

I know you love to love me but you need not change your allegiance or stop worshipping your lord, be as thou pleases, it pleases me that thou art the bloomed fruit of thy desire... 

~

You are an objectified objectificator ! ( my turn to talk $hit now)

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