Guns n' Roses - November Rain mystery

[Dark Reality]

I know this is sort of an offtopic forum, but your forum does deal with strange things, and in the realm of music and video, I think this qualifies.

November Rain was the second in a three part music video/movie hybrid series designed to portray Guns n' Roses' take on the life of a rock star, through their music. The first video is Don't Cry, and the third video is Estranged. I think most people remember the Estranged video, with Slash's guitar solo parting the seas, Axl jumping off a yacht and a dolphin saving his life, it's a pretty good video. The November Rain video, however, presented a little mystery not solved until recently, over a decade later.

If you don't quite recall the video, it starts out with Axl Rose waking from a nightmare, then goes into an elaborate wedding (Axl to model Stephanie Seymour) in a church in the middle of nowhere. After the wedding, Slash does an awesome solo in the desert... We go to a wedding reception, which is going good until it begins raining, and everyone dives for cover, presumably to get out of the rain. At the end of this scene, there is an ominous shot of red wine spilling. We cut to Axl on the piano, and Slash steps up onto the piano - this is where the song cuts to the heavy part at the end - and the scene cuts to a funeral. Axl is in tears as his bride is in a casket. At the end of the video, he's crying over her grave.

I would argue November Rain is the best music video ever made, but that's just an opinion. There's these three Guns n' Roses videos, and the Tool videos... That's pretty much the best of the best right there. Anyway, the video leaves the question of how she died, and therein lies the mystery. At the end of the video, there is a credit saying the video is based on the short story "Without You" by Del James. The problem is, "Without You" is a short story in a collection called "The Language of Fear." This book was published in 1995, but the publisher went out of business, and only a few hundred copies of the book were made. As you can imagine, those who had copies began selling them for outrageous prices on eBay. Usually the Internet is a place where no secret is safe, but for years no one would transcribe it or scan/OCR it. I assumed that the value of the collectible books would go down drastically if anyone on the Net could read the story online or download it, and thus no one who had saved up the money to actually buy the book would jeopardize the resale value of the book, once they had read it. I had regularly been searching via Google and the filesharing networks for an eBook/text dump of the story.

Well, finally I found it. It's not an OCR scan, so there are some typos. I cannot guarantee it's not edited. I can't guarantee it's authentic. I've talked to people who have claimed to read the book, so I'll have to ask them if it's real or not. I found it in MS Word format, and I've converted it to text.

What follows is a complete dump of the text file. It's the story less the header and the overstretched scan of the cover of "The Language of Fear". It's about 48kB, so it might take a few seconds over a dialup line. I considered posting it, but that's a heck of a long document.

But there's more. As many times as you may have seen the video, you may have missed a small detail that hints to the gunshot suicide answer. Watch the video again but pay special attention to the casket. Try to see the side of her face that is the farthest from the camera.

Is that...? Yes, there is a mirror there. A mirror cut to fit her shape and attached to the lid of the casket to give the illusion she's all there, when in reality (of the fictional event, not the actual filming) there is extensive trauma to that side of her face. Anyway, I didn't see this until someone pointed it out, and wouldn't have found it otherwise, even with the Del James story.

withoutyou.txt

[+joc]

All I know is that Axel Rose is the biggest Ahole in the music industry and I can't even stand to listen to a G and R song.

[mr_halo]

All I know is that Axel Rose is the biggest Ahole in the music industry and I can't even stand to listen to a G and R song. 

476853[/snapback]

theres no need for that plus he spells his name Axl Rose...

[Tia]

Very interesting Dark Reality.

[greychupa]

All I know is that Axel Rose is the biggest Ahole in the music industry and I can't even stand to listen to a G and R song. 

476853[/snapback]

Stay polite....

[+joc]

Sorry about posting such negative opinions about the Axl of G & R. I used to really like G&R until Axl punched out a fan for taking his picture at a concert.

Slash Rocks however!

[Dark Reality]

I would like to point out that I don't like W. Axl Rose as a person either. He is very self-centered, very egotistical... In general he is not a good person. However, he's an amazing, brilliant performer. It's like Scott Stapp from Creed. A lot of people don't like him either. Or Lars Ulrich from Metallica. We may not always agree with the artists whose music we listen to, but if we can look past that and focus on what we have in common with that artist, which is their music, we can get something positive from it.

For those who don't like Axl, I heard the funniest thing on another forum when I posted this. Someone said they thought Axl's over-inflated ego killed the bride in November Rain... I think that's brilliant. Heck of a way to explain it!

[AliceCoopersGirl]

I walked down the aisle to November Rain as I thought it was a fantastic tune and I love it(only been married since November last year)...but now Im not too sure...

[Nickey]

For me "November Rain" and "Don't Cry" were the songs that marked my romantic life... it may sound strange, but it's true

They just manage to touch me as deep as no other music ever!!!

...

anyways, I don't want to get into too much details...

I just wanted to ask if you have the whole book "Language of fear" by Del James. I already have "Without you", but I would like to have it all. If you, guys, do- please send it to me at blue_angelic_devil@abv.bg

It wouldn't take much time but I would highly appreciate it!

thanks in advance!

[Loaded_Revolver]

I thought something might have happened to her left side, seeing how it is highly unusual to have a mirror in the casket like that.

Anyway, I could care less, that is an Axl Rose video, not GnR.

[pete's montreux]

I knew that was a mirror the first time I saw the video. It's not hard to see.

[whoa182]

Guns N roses songs are amazing and November rain is definitly one of my fave videos still.

I love the instremental at the end too!

[icefusion]

I really didn't know about the mirror in the video until i saw this pic and i wanna thank dark reality for that 1 and the video is a great 1 too leave behind the fact that axl rose is one controversial son of a gun

[Emcee]

All I know is that I totally just ran up to my room to get Use Your Illusion I. Man, what an awesome band.

Since I was a youngin, I always wondered about the music video. It was one of the first I remember. I'm really glad I can read the story now, thanks alot!

[Mr. Blonde]

I read this thread along time ago, then totally forgot it. Guns... my favorite band ever. I'm listening to Dont Cry right now, well its done so Dont Damn Me is on. ALSO I'm wearing my AFD Cross shirt. Axl...oh Axl. Hes the singer you LOVE to hate. He was the e'ffin king back in the day, he was the best of the best. I love that whole band, everything they stood for. I am a Guns N Roses master. I have no clue why Axl put that in the video, hell I have no clue why Axl does what he does. EDIT: Answer to that statement. THE HEROIN. With years of everything else.

Izzy's the king.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Mr. Blonde

[icefusion]

if u guys ever find the book Del James wrote then plz b kind enough to tell me

[Emcee]

I read this thread along time ago, then totally forgot it. Guns... my favorite band ever. I'm listening to Dont Cry right now, well its done so Dont Damn Me is on. ALSO I'm wearing my AFD Cross shirt. Axl...oh Axl. Hes the singer you LOVE to hate. He was the e'ffin king back in the day, he was the best of the best. I love that whole band, everything they stood for.  I am a Guns N Roses master. I have no clue why Axl put that in the video, hell I have no clue why Axl does what he does. EDIT: Answer to that statement. THE HEROIN. With years of everything else.

Izzy's the king.

553246[/snapback]

Chya, Axl was the man. Untill the dreadlocks came, sorry.

P.s. Duff is awesome.

P.P.S. Mr.Blonde was my favourite from Reservoir Dogs.

[joeykhar]

In the video, Axl Rose killed her.

If you watch the video again, it shows Axl walking away from a Gun store.

I dont know if this is just symbolic to the band but if you ask my opinion, he was buying a gun to kill her.

This might also be the reason for the nightmares. He is having regrets about doing it or something.

I love that song too.

Also may be my opinion but that is the best song ever made.

Edited May 17, 2005 by joeykhar

[Dark Reality]

@Joeykhar - I dunno, it could go either way. See, if the video were faithful to the Del James story, it would be suicide, 100%. But then Stephanie Seymour (played Axl's bride in the video) wanted certain changes before she'd do it. (I heard that from either her, Axl, or Del... they all talk in the documentary "Makin f_ckin' videos: November Rain".) So who knows. But consider, Axl was a wreck at the funeral. It doesn't portray him being charged with a crime.

I do concede that Axl is walking away from the gun store. Stephanie could have shot herself with Axl's gun. In the story, she shoots herself after catching him cheating. It doesn't say whose gun she used; it could well be her newlywed husband's gun, or maybe they bought it together for protection. Also remember that "GUNS" (the sign) could also be a reference to Tracy Guns or Gunns, however it was spelled. (GnR fans will tell you the group originally had a member named Tracy Gunns (sp? ...and male) who left, and they flipped over the name or some other game of chance, and Axl won, so Axl got to keep the name. Tracy Gunns faded away... I think he died, but I'm not sure. So maybe it was a nod. Also, Axl Rose and Stephanie Seymour were about the same size, build, and same length of hair. I was never 100% sure it was Axl in the gun store shot. In the dark, from the distance, basically an outline... It could have gone either way.

November Rain is based on "Without You" but it's important to realize that it's only part of a video trilogy based on "Without You." There are elements in both "Don't Cry" and "Estranged", the other two videos, based on "Without You" as well. It's a really well done project, but unfortunately the book was pushed underground and it sort of fell apart, but if they would have marketed it right, it would have been a lot bigger, a lot more people talking about it, more information.

As for Guns n Roses, I have a love/hate perception of their music. I used to love them when I was 15. It was the same time I was into Metallica, and I'm the same way about them. Metallica are asshats as well outside of their music. So now, both bands have songs that I like, but I'm not a "fan" anymore, and every now and then I like to hear them.

But "November Rain" will always be one of my favorites. There are just songs that for whatever reason you'll always like. My first favorite song was "Sweet Home Alabama" by Lynyrd Skynyrd, when I was 5 or 6, and I've loved it ever since. November Rain was later, and after that it was "Runaway Train" by Soul Asylum. I still love all three songs. There are a lot of songs I feel that way about now, but the true test will be in a few years if I still feel that way.

[joeykhar]

I can see all that. i'm learning to play the electric guitar myself. And so for that fact alone I like any music with a good solo and most GnR songs have them. Slash is one of the best.

But one point I dont really see is this.

I've had people very close to me die before. My ex girlfriend died in my arms. And it hurt like hell but I never had any nightmares about it.

One thing I thaught about when I saw the nightmares and him waking up sweating would be some kind of guilt. And as for him being tore up at the funeral, Thats a given if he was starting to regret it afterwards. Or maybe he did kill her but by accident. Then he would have instantly regretted it, still been tore up about it, and had the nightmares of doing it.

As for the book itself, I've never read it or seen it.

But i have read and seen books that say based on another book. And when i read it, it had nothing to do with each other. Basicly the author read a book and got inspiration for his own book and put based on it. i dont know if that made since but it could also be another possibility as to what happened here.

I also have another question,

it doesnt really have to do with the topic of her death but it is part of the video.

When slash gives the ring to them at the wedding, he slowly walks outside. I know he goes into a solo but for some reason i get the feeling he was walking outside for a different reason, for example he was unhappy about something or other. What did you get out of that part ??

[Treasurer]

Hey everybody, watch closely at the wound on Stephanie Seymor, it is placed very far out on the right side of her chest.

She could not have committed suicide, cause Stephanie Seymor is right handed (she smokes with her right hand at the bar with Guns N' Roeses) every smoker uses their prefered hand to hold the cigarette.

By the way, wouldn't it be an akward place to shout yourself, I mean theres not a very big chance for the shot to be deadly, it is not even in the heart, which would have been symbolic.

Additional: The reason way the odd place of the bulletwound can also have something to do with the mirror effect, if it was placed to far up, maybe she would have had 2 identically wounds

She could have the gun with both hands, but then it was impossible that she had shot herself in the far right side of her chest, if you hold a peice that way you would always hold it in the center of your body, that is common sense.

That leaves us with the fact that Axl could have killed her (the one with his superego killed her, I too think is a excellent answer and also the right one).

Or else this is a major mistake by GnR, they probably should have thought a little bit more about how the human body works.

In the short story "Without You" It is a suicide. But in the movie the bulletwound is just so wrong!!

- The truth lies within details

[Chloesmum]

Can anyone tell me who the young guy was in the video clip "Dont Cry".

He wasnt a band member, i think he was just in that one song.

Long hair, check shirt and oh so sexy.

Who was he and where is he now? Any ideas?

Thanks+

[Hans Dolbrook]

if not for axl's flamboyant use of lunacy and ego,G-N-R would still be together,and would be in the top 3 greatest bands on earth today.axl is a legend in his own mind.

[hami1979]

Can anyone tell me who the young guy was in the video clip "Dont Cry".

He wasnt a band member, i think he was just in that one song.

Long hair, check shirt and oh so sexy.

Who was he and where is he now? Any ideas?

Thanks+

656963[/snapback]

That guy was Shannon Hoon from the band Blind Melon. They had a hit with the song "No Rain" in the early '90's (the "bee girl" video, if that rings a bell). He and Axl went to high school together or something, and he sang backup vocals on "Don't Cry" and maybe some other songs on the Illusions albums, I don't really remember for sure, but I know he sang on "Don't Cry" and I suppose that's why he was in the video. He died of a cocaine OD in 1995.

[Hans Dolbrook]

is the next offical g-n-r album of original material,ever coming out?