+DieChecker Posted July 13, 2020 #151 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Meh... He comuted the sentence. Not a pardon. Stone's still a felon technically. I thought hed do it in December. Guess Trump knows this isnt going to affect the election. He's got to show something that will beat covid. If he shows ANY real progress, regardless of if hes even involved, in fighting Covid... the boogieman of 2020, he'll get the swing vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted July 13, 2020 #152 Share Posted July 13, 2020 10 hours ago, micahc said: thats kind of irrelevant. Obama commuted 100's to bring their sentence in line with proposed prison reform and new sentencing guidelines for non violent offenders. Trump let's people go who kiss his trump even when they are traitors, liars and thieves like him. people had life sentences for selling crack more often than for selling powder cocaine. Manning comes to mind... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning Quote She is a former United States Army soldier who was convicted by court-martial in July 2013 of violations of the Espionage Act and other offenses, after disclosing to WikiLeaks nearly 750,000 classified, or unclassified but sensitive, military and diplomatic documents.[7] Oh. How the libs loved wikileaks back then.... There are former military officers who've gone to prison for a years due to a single document being released... Manning handed over nearly a million classified dicuments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahc Posted July 13, 2020 #153 Share Posted July 13, 2020 27 minutes ago, DieChecker said: Manning comes to mind... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning Oh. How the libs loved wikileaks back then.... There are former military officers who've gone to prison for a years due to a single document being released... Manning handed over nearly a million classified dicuments. what does that have to do with Trump pardoning a man who lied to cover up Trump's crimes? oh what aboutism doesn't work here. Stone and Trump are criminal co conspirators and Trump once again abused power. When we have a real president and AG again, we can settle all family business. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted July 13, 2020 #154 Share Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, micahc said: what does that have to do with Trump pardoning a man who lied to cover up Trump's crimes? oh what aboutism doesn't work here. Stone and Trump are criminal co conspirators and Trump once again abused power. When we have a real president and AG again, we can settle all family business. Yeah, fine. Be a hypocrit also. No higher morality for you i guess. "Your" criminals are exempt from justice, i guess? What's not good for Trump is fine for your guy? "What aboutism" is good for one thing at least... flushing out the hypocrites. Edited July 13, 2020 by DieChecker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahc Posted July 13, 2020 #155 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 minute ago, DieChecker said: Yeah, fine. Be a hypocrit also. No higher morality for you i guess. "Your" criminals are exempt from justice, i guess? What's not good for Trump is fine for your guy? "What aboutism" is good for one thing at least... flushing out the hypocrites. what are you rambling about? What does other pardons of people have to do with Stone's pardon. Manning was not committing crimes with Obama, and he she was not pardoned to keep his or her mouth shut. you trumpists live in an alternative universe. I need to ignore you. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor Witness Posted July 13, 2020 #156 Share Posted July 13, 2020 2 hours ago, micahc said: what are you rambling about? What does other pardons of people have to do with Stone's pardon. Manning was not committing crimes with Obama, and he she was not pardoned to keep his or her mouth shut. you trumpists live in an alternative universe. I need to ignore you. It’s not an alternate universe, they are simple minded folks, or who don’t have minds of their own. It’s easier not to think for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skliss Posted July 13, 2020 #157 Share Posted July 13, 2020 What about Clinton pardoning Susan McDougal who refused to testify about his involvement in Whitewater? Among many others he pardoned...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autochthon1990 Posted July 13, 2020 #158 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 minute ago, skliss said: What about Clinton pardoning Susan McDougal who refused to testify about his involvement in Whitewater? Among many others he pardoned...... Didn't he do that well after the case was finished and had been gone over for years? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skliss Posted July 13, 2020 #159 Share Posted July 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said: Didn't he do that well after the case was finished and had been gone over for years? Then why bother? Unless there was more that could be said. Bottom line is she knew something, refused to testify...must have been something good....and Clinton rewarded her for keeping silent (lieing by omission) about his misdeeds. How about this one: Linda Evans and Susan Rosenberg, members of the radical Weather Underground organization, both had sentences for weapons and explosives charges commuted: Evans served 16 years of her 40-year sentence, and Rosenberg served 16 of her 58 years.[24][25] Or this: Marc Rich, a fugitive who had fled the U.S. during his prosecution, was residing in Switzerland. Rich owed $48 million in taxes and was charged with 51 counts for tax fraud, was pardoned of tax evasion. He was required to pay a $1 million fine and waive any use of the pardon as a defense against any future civil charges that were filed against him in the same case. Critics complained that Denise Eisenberg Rich, his former wife, had made substantial donations to both the Clinton library and to Mrs. Clinton's senate campaign. According to Paul Volcker's independent investigation of Iraqi Oil-for-Food kickback schemes, Marc Rich was a middleman for several suspect Iraqi oil deals involving over 4 million barrels (640,000 m3) of oil.[26] Longtime Clinton supporters and Democratic leaders such as former President Jimmy Carter, James Carville and Terry McAuliffe, were all critical of the Clinton pardon. Carter said the pardons were "disgraceful."[27] There are many more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahc Posted July 13, 2020 #160 Share Posted July 13, 2020 35 minutes ago, skliss said: What about Clinton pardoning Susan McDougal who refused to testify about his involvement in Whitewater? Among many others he pardoned...... after she served her sentence she was pardoned as Clinton left office. But she claimed Ken Starr wanted her to lie, and when she refused she was charged with contempt. I remember her interviews and always thought she was much more honest than ken starr and that crowd. Again what does that have to do with Stone? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_McDougal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahc Posted July 13, 2020 #161 Share Posted July 13, 2020 all the trumpists have is what about this and that. Stone conspired with Trump to break the law and he was found guilty. He has been saying he has even more dirt against trumpanov the traitor but he isn't talking so he deserves a pardon. well he got a commutation and I suspect that was even strategic to keep his mouth shut since a full pardon would take him out of jeopardy and he could not invoke the 5th. Now all these references to pardons by other Presidents is just typical Trumpism. You people just can't accept you are backing a crook and a traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted July 13, 2020 #162 Share Posted July 13, 2020 5 hours ago, DieChecker said: Yeah, fine. Be a hypocrit also. No higher morality for you i guess. "Your" criminals are exempt from justice, i guess? What's not good for Trump is fine for your guy? "What aboutism" is good for one thing at least... flushing out the hypocrites. Yeah. So now what? Since we have started down the road of excusing criminals from justice, can we ever turn back? Or are we doomed to watch the current President pardon Maxwell because he is behind in pardon counts? Can we ever draw a line and say it stops here? I am OK if Trump skates and it starts with the next guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted July 14, 2020 #163 Share Posted July 14, 2020 13 hours ago, micahc said: what are you rambling about? What does other pardons of people have to do with Stone's pardon. Manning was not committing crimes with Obama, and he she was not pardoned to keep his or her mouth shut. you trumpists live in an alternative universe. I need to ignore you. Anger, or hate, has blinded you. Justice and Law should be EQUAL. Do you not agree? Now, Stone shoukd be in prison, i agree. But there are a great number of people who got commutations, or pardons, who should have not been. Thats my point. Do you agree, or do you see justice as through rose colored glasses? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted July 14, 2020 #164 Share Posted July 14, 2020 8 hours ago, Tatetopa said: Yeah. So now what? Since we have started down the road of excusing criminals from justice, can we ever turn back? Or are we doomed to watch the current President pardon Maxwell because he is behind in pardon counts? Can we ever draw a line and say it stops here? I am OK if Trump skates and it starts with the next guy. Read my last post. Stone should be if he committed a crime. He was found guilty, and should do the time. Im not supporting Trump. Im asking if people are two minded about this thing, were its OK if "their" president does it. We know Manning, and others, were guilty. Yet were let out. Is that right? Pardons, and commuted sentences, should be used only under known bad justice cases, such as mistaken identity. I dont believe it should be used for political points, as it were. Call me conservative about the law if you must. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted July 14, 2020 #165 Share Posted July 14, 2020 10 hours ago, micahc said: all the trumpists have is what about this and that. Stone conspired with Trump to break the law and he was found guilty. He has been saying he has even more dirt against trumpanov the traitor but he isn't talking so he deserves a pardon. well he got a commutation and I suspect that was even strategic to keep his mouth shut since a full pardon would take him out of jeopardy and he could not invoke the 5th. Now all these references to pardons by other Presidents is just typical Trumpism. You people just can't accept you are backing a crook and a traitor. If i remember right, Stone was charged with LYING, not treason, or some such. I dont believe anyone prooved Stone lied at Trumps orders. Do you have a link for that? He lied to Congress, i believe. Or was it the FBI? Anyway, what he lied about was that he even HAD any influence. He had no such contact with Wikileaks. He was tryong to cover for someone else, and got caught, simple as that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted July 14, 2020 #166 Share Posted July 14, 2020 10 hours ago, Tatetopa said: Yeah. So now what? Since we have started down the road of excusing criminals from justice, can we ever turn back? Or are we doomed to watch the current President pardon Maxwell because he is behind in pardon counts? Can we ever draw a line and say it stops here? I am OK if Trump skates and it starts with the next guy. you are a President too late to be making comments like that... now I'm not saying that showing mercy and setting some people free is a bad thing (if they aren't a danger to the public and its appropriate) - but you ignore the precedent that Obama set..? and bringing in the Epstein link with your mention of Maxwell was a low move... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Barack_Obama By the end of his second and final term on January 20, 2017, United States President Barack Obama had exercised his constitutional power to grant the executive clemency—that is, "pardon, commutation of sentence, remission of fine or restitution, and reprieve"[1]—to 400 individuals convicted of federal crimes. Of the acts of clemency, 1715 were commutations (including 504 life sentences) and 212 were pardons.[2][3] Most individuals granted executive clemency by Obama had been convicted on drug charges,[4] and had received lengthy and sometimes mandatory sentences at the height of the war on drugs.[5] Obama holds the record for the largest single-day use of the clemency power, granting 330 commutations on January 19, 2017, his last full day in office.[6][7] He also issued more commutations than the past 13 presidents combined. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted July 14, 2020 #167 Share Posted July 14, 2020 14 hours ago, DieChecker said: Read my last post. Stone should be if he committed a crime. He was found guilty, and should do the time. Im not supporting Trump. Im asking if people are two minded about this thing, were its OK if "their" president does it. I did read your post, I always read your posts. Direct answer No. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted July 14, 2020 #168 Share Posted July 14, 2020 12 hours ago, bee said: you are a President too late to be making comments like that... now I'm not saying that showing mercy and setting some people free is a bad thing (if they aren't a danger to the public and its appropriate) - but you ignore the precedent that Obama set..? and bringing in the Epstein link with your mention of Maxwell was a low move... Nope. Here is the deal bee. You say Obama did it, you are right, Somebody even tells me how many people Obama pardoned. So does Trump need to catch up? My point is, when do we stop?. As I said, to be fair about it, let it stop with the next guy. Just because we have done it in the past, Clinton did it, Bush did it, Obama did it, Trump does it, does it mean we always have to have a corrupt government? So are we trying to even the score or stop? I really don't care which party is in charge, both are crooked. I want a more honest government. The Hatfield - McCoy feud didn't do anybody any good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted July 15, 2020 #169 Share Posted July 15, 2020 11 hours ago, Tatetopa said: My point is, when do we stop?. I think showing mercy and clemency when appropriate is a good thing - so why stop..? But don't pretend that Trump is the problem regarding this if you think it's a problem... and don't insert the 'catching up' thing when that has got nothing to do with him commuting Roger Stones sentence .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted July 15, 2020 #170 Share Posted July 15, 2020 11 hours ago, bee said: I think showing mercy and clemency when appropriate is a good thing - so why stop..? But don't pretend that Trump is the problem regarding this if you think it's a problem... and don't insert the 'catching up' thing when that has got nothing to do with him commuting Roger Stones sentence .... Showing clemency may be a good thing. Using the system to do political favors, not so much. Trump is not the first, but yes, he is part of the problem. Catching up is about the meme of Clinton, Bush, and Obama all giving more pardons than Trump. If showing clemency is a good thing, then Obama, Clinton, and Bush should be praised as far more merciful than President Trump, not excoriated as being crooked. The problem has never been Trump or Obama showing mercy to an incarcerated person who people may judge has been unfairly treated. The problem comes when Trump or Obama or Clinton used that power to remove a close associate form consequences of his or her actions, or possibly expose themselves.. Those two functions need to be separated out. As I said it might seem partisan if we stop now, so let some new rules come in with the next President. No pardons for close associates involved in political machinations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromdor Posted July 15, 2020 #171 Share Posted July 15, 2020 13 hours ago, bee said: I think showing mercy and clemency when appropriate is a good thing - so why stop..? But don't pretend that Trump is the problem regarding this if you think it's a problem... and don't insert the 'catching up' thing when that has got nothing to do with him commuting Roger Stones sentence .... So a three year old immigrant child in a crowded detention center during a pandemic = no clemency. And friend of president convicted in court by a jury of his peers of obstructing investigations, witness tampering, and covering corruption of said president= clemency? Sounds about right. I'm still waiting for him to pardon Manafort (Who is out of jail because of the pandemic....). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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