Christians in China being fingerprinted

[Phaeton80]

2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Citations, please. Im expecting it to strongly indicate the Uyghur arent dicriminated against, arent seen - as a whole - to pose a direct threat to China / Chinese Communist party... treated as 2nd grade citizens.

Also, my point didnt revolve around the word 're education' (as opposed to, say, 'brainwashing'), as this is a concept which lies in the eye of the beholder, not unlike 'freedom fighter' Vs 'terrorist'.

This is my first - and very civil if I do say so myself - response to your claim I was being fed propaganda..  You subsequently proceed to add to the insult stating:

Quote

I know, I seen your work, let's see you do something besides pander to the most desirable propaganda tune 

..And 'my irrational reaction' is at fault here? Dude, get an effing grip. May wanna curtail those hormones, or put down the bottle.

 

[spartan max2]

20 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

This is my first - and very civil if I do say so myself - response to your claim I was being fed propaganda..  You subsequently proceed to add to the insult stating:

..And 'my irrational reaction' is at fault here? Dude, get an effing grip. May wanna curtail those hormones, or put down the bottle.

 

Welcome to China related threads on UM lol.

For whatever reason Third Eye gets very insulting and unreasonable with any topics regarding China. 

Also, to add in addition to your original inquiry, I think the evidence that there is a gross violation of human rights against Muslims in Xinjiang is pretty solid. We have about 300 something pages of leaked government documents, dozens of stories and witness accounts from escapees, the Chinese goverment threatening dissidents and activist abroad, and of course at first they denied the camps existed at all until they decided to declare the camps are "reeducation" facilities in 2018. 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by spartan max2

[SHaYap]

Wow... Snowflake season all of a sudden...

Get matching robes and start chanting slogans, you guys might even get to start a cult... 

And that's from the only Asian fella here who is taking the time to offer you folks the low down and dirty on site... 

I'm so hurt... 

~

[Phaeton80]

24 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Welcome to China related threads on UM lol.

For whatever reason Third Eye gets very insulting and unreasonable with any topics regarding China. 

Also, to add in addition to your original inquiry, I think the evidence that there is a gross violation of human rights against Muslims in Xinjiang is pretty solid. We have about 300 something pages of leaked government documents, dozens of stories and witness accounts from escapees, the Chinese goverment threatening dissidents and activist abroad, and of course at first they denied the camps existed at all until they decided to declare the camps are "reeducation" facilities in 2018.

I did find a Council on Foreign Relations piece pushing thesame story.. So I would readily conceive the plausibility of a medium to strong level of (Western) propaganda being at play here (to fuel the anti China sentiment).. But as you say, I think the evidence remains in favor of maltreatment against the Uyghur, considerably so. I also readily admit I havent researched this particular subject well enough, as well as admitting others (closer to the fire so to say) may be in a better position to know whats what.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Phaeton80

[spartan max2]

4 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

I did find a Council of Foreign Relations piece pushing thesame story.. So I would readily conceive the plausibility of a medium to strong level of (Western) propaganda being at play here (to fuel the anti China sentiment).. But as you say, I think the evidence remains in favor of malpractise against the Uyghur, considerably so. I also readily admit I havent researched this particular subject well enough, as well as admitting others (closer to the fire so to say) may be in a better position to know whats what.

Oh I'm sure the U.S goverment is happy to talk trash against China, as a rival lol.

So there will be some bias in play. 

But China has also created a situation where it's hard to trust anything they say since they silence dissidents with such vigor and have a state controlled media, plus denyed the camps existed at first. 

Since third eye wants to be rude I'll give you the other argument summarized.

China's argument is that they are fighting exterminism. Islamic terrorism. Which it is true that there were terrorist activities in the region, such as some bombings and attacks. China claims it is a strong response against terrorism. 

 

 

I believe the "response" with the reeducation camps shows that it's really about homogenizing a culture and silencing any form of dissident. Xinjiang was semi-autonomous from China and had some small independence movement groups. The stories coming from the escapees is just sick.

Now the CCP try to claim all the stories are lies and slander. But hell, if that's true then it's alot of "lies" from alot of scared refugees and asylum seekers lol. 

 

 

[Phaeton80]

35 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Oh I'm sure the U.S goverment is happy to talk trash against China, as a rival lol.

So there will be some bias in play. 

But China has also created a situation where it's hard to trust anything they say since they silence dissidents with such vigor and have a state controlled media, plus denyed the camps existed at first. 

Since third eye wants to be rude I'll give you the other argument summarized.

China's argument is that they are fighting exterminism. Islamic terrorism. Which it is true that there were terrorist activities in the region, such as some bombings and attacks. China claims it is a strong response against terrorism.

I believe the "response" with the reeducation camps shows that it's really about homogenizing a culture and silencing any form of dissident. Xinjiang was semi-autonomous from China and had some small independence movement groups. The stories coming from the escapees is just sick.

Now the CCP try to claim all the stories are lies and slander. But hell, if that's true then it's alot of "lies" from alot of scared refugees and asylum seekers lol.

Completely agree with what youre saying here, but the US is doing more or less thesame.. allbeit in a more tacit, implicit babystep / boiled frog kinda way. All in the name of 'National Security' in the 'War against Islam Terror'. In all honesty, I trust the US government less than I do the Chinese.

Back on topic, heres an interesting docu:

Quote

For the first time, a French director-journalist will join an official trip to the heart of one of the most secret regions in China: Xinjiang. Unstable and by far the most volatile province in the country, it’s a unique opportunity to visit an area that’s normally out of bounds to tourists.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Phaeton80

[Phaeton80]

Quote

March of the Uyghurs

Again, The West Tries to Destroy China, Using Religion and Terror

By Andre Vltchek

Important note: The Uyghurs have managed to create a very old and deep culture. Most of them are good, law abiding citizens of the PRC. Also the great majority of followers of Sunni Islam are peaceful people. This work is addressing terrible problems related to extremism and terrorism, most of them crafted and then fueled by the West and its allies. The goal is to damage China. The victims live in various countries.

December 01, 2019 "Information Clearing House" -      They are everywhere, where their Western, Gulf states and Turkish handlers want them to be.

Their combat as well as political cells and units are based in Syria and Indonesia, in Turkey and occasionally in Egypt.

When they are told to kill, they murder with unimaginable brutality; decapitating, or cutting to pieces priests, infants, old women.

They are China’s worst nightmare. They are unleashing religious fundamentalism and foreign-sponsored militant nationalism and separatism. They are potentially the greatest obstacle and danger to President’s Xi Jinping’s marvelous BRI (Belt and Road Initiative).

Both the West and Turkey are glorifying them; the most extremist of Uyghurs. They are financing and arming them. They are labelling them as victims. Uyghurs are now a new ‘secret weapon’, to be used against Beijing’s determined march forward, towards socialism with Chinese characteristics.

[..]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/52640.htm

 

[+and-then]

On 11/24/2019 at 2:22 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

He rails against mass indoctrination to loyalty to the state while forcing children to pledge allegiance to the state.

Why lie about your point?  No one forces these kids to do anything.  Unless, of course, you consider peer pressure to be the same thing?  Really?  Is that the hill you want to die on in this discussion?  America is as bad as communist China where human rights are concerned?   

[Piney]

On 11/30/2019 at 1:12 PM, spartan max2 said:

I believe the "response" with the reeducation camps shows that it's really about homogenizing a culture and silencing any form of dissident. Xinjiang was semi-autonomous from China and had some small independence movement groups. The stories coming from the escapees is just sick.

But the Kazakh and Kyrgyz cultures remain un-molested and they are also Tujue. As with the Jurchen Peoples including the Evenks.  

So when is the U.S going to give back all the Hawaiian property stolen from their Japanese citizens when they were put in camps? Last time I checked it still belonged to Dole and the Mormons.

 

 

[spartan max2]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

But the Kazakh and Kyrgyz cultures remain un-molested and they are also Tujue. As with the Jurchen Peoples including the Evenks.  

So when is the U.S going to give back all the Hawaiian property stolen from their Japanese citizens when they were put in camps? Last time I checked it still belonged to Dole and the Mormons.

 

 

Kazakhs and Kygryz are getting locked up too.

They get less media because they make up a much smaller part of the population.

There is between 1-3 million people in these Nazi-esq reeducation camps.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

China denied the camps existed until international pressure caused then to state they exist as "reeducation" camps.

The leaked Xinjiang papers showed how people are being sent to the camp who have committed no crime and they receive no due process. The papers directed officials how to talk to returning students wanting to know where their family is. You think all these millions of people are terrorist?

These camps are to indoctrinate and get rid of dissident. By whatever means. Erasing a culture, torture.

China threatens activist abroad by telling them to keep quite or their family will be in the camp for longer. Stop and think about how twisted that is. Actually ruminate on it.

This is some brown shirt sick ****.

Idk how anyone can defend this.

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by spartan max2

[Piney]

7 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Kazakhs and Kygryz are getting locked up too.

Only the troublemakers. The Quipchak I know are just fine and I heard that from one in Russia. 

Hey, what about the Appalachian Clearances when the U.S was going to "help" those "poor" Hillbillies and put them up in abandon military bases then wrote them off and moved them to the slums of Chicago and Gloucester City. Sending some of them to "Developmental Centers" for Kellogg based eugenics studies. (*round skull no good. long skull good*) 

They didn't even have clothes and blankets. You don't hear about that do you?

Is the U.S going to give their descendants the thousands of acres back? 

And howabout Trumpies Latino "Kiddie Cares"????? They went silent on the missing ones. 

14 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

There is between 1-3 million people in these Nazi-esq reeducation camps.

Well, that's a lot of resources to expend. It wouldn't be one hell of a exaggeration would it? 

 

[spartan max2]

22 minutes ago, Piney said:

Only the troublemakers. The Quipchak I know are just fine and I heard that from one in Russia. 

Hey, what about the Appalachian Clearances when the U.S was going to "help" those "poor" Hillbillies and put them up in abandon military bases then wrote them off and moved them to the slums of Chicago and Gloucester City. Sending some of them to "Developmental Centers" for Kellogg based eugenics studies. (*round skull no good. long skull good*) 

They didn't even have clothes and blankets. You don't hear about that do you?

Is the U.S going to give their descendants the thousands of acres back? 

And howabout Trumpies Latino "Kiddie Cares"????? They went silent on the missing ones. 

Well, that's a lot of resources to expend. It wouldn't be one hell of a exaggeration would it? 

 

None of that has anything to do with the people in these camps.

Escapees who leave and go to other countries report horrible things happening in these camps. And they don't do any terrorist activity in these other countries, like Sweden, so I see no proof everyone locked up is a terrorist.

You're ignoring the gross human rights violations proven in the leaked papers. 

It can't be right to lock people up who don't commit a crime, not give them due process, make your stay longer based on your families actions, and do mass communist indoctrination in the camp along with torture.

Plus clamp down on any and all attempts to talk about it and speak dissent. They even use your family to threaten you abroad. 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by spartan max2

[pbarosso]

look, if you ask me, id force christianity on all of you and do whatever it took to ensure my religion/culture's dominance. if you dont do it someone else will. GUARANTEED.

totally healthy and natural. get over it.

native americans LOST get over it: VAE VICTUS. whoa to the vanquished. its the way of the universe. the big and powerful always wins. everyones people got stomped one century or another.. yet you dont see us simmering in our own poop.

[Piney]

10 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

You're ignoring the gross human rights violations proven in the leaked papers. 

So how is the U.S. version of the War on Terror working out?  I think it's caused a lot more harm myself. 

Something makes me not trust the leaked papers and many of the stories set off my autistic B.S. detector.

I sent some emails out to Quipchak associates I worked with when I was a cultural resources advisor. So far I have 2 responses that say it is seriously exaggerated. Both of them are residents of Russia and have no reason to protect China's interests. 

 

[Piney]

1 minute ago, pbarosso said:

look, if you ask me, id force christianity on all of you and do whatever it took to ensure my religion/culture's dominance. 

5 stars for honesty. 

[ocpaul20]

Spartan Max2 said:

I can go post whatever critiques or memes I want about my government online without any fears of repercussion. I can talk about it to people or start a newspaper/blog/etc without any fear of repercussions. 

Not completely true, as the governments of most major countries across the world monitor their citizens emails, social media, and internet postings for radical or opposing views. Even telephone conversations are monitored for trigger words to show up suspected terrorism cells. Why do you think there are large computer complexes dedicated to monitoring and decrypting emails, conversations, cellphone messages etc? To believe otherwise is rather simplistic. In this day and age, we all need to watch our backs for groups trying to subvert and infiltrate.

Indoctrinisation comes in many forms and starts with the media and educational system at the earliest age. If you think your mind is not messed with, then think again and open your eyes.

And then said:

No one forces these kids to do anything.  Unless, of course, you consider peer pressure to be the same thing?  Really?  Is that the hill you want to die on in this discussion?  America is as bad as communist China where human rights are concerned?

Of course school kids are forced to do things. Reciting, playing or singing the National Anthem, etc is mind control and brain washing. I dont see opt-out forms given to parents to allow their kids to be excluded from being subjected to any form of educational mind processing. Really, until you have studied the educational systems of more than one country, you have no idea how every country begins to instill wanted behaviour at a very early age. But...I agree that all countries are probably equally as bad as each other and finger pointing by governments is just another way to direct attention at some bad guy - Russia, China, North Korea, whoever is the baddie at the moment.

Why all this posturing anyway ? "my Dad is bigger/tougher than your Dad" or "my country is better than your country" ?
It just serves to divide us, which is what the war mongers want so they can send kids to war for glory and the bankers want so they can lend money to both sides.

[pbarosso]

3 hours ago, ocpaul20 said:

Spartan Max2 said:

 

Not completely true, as the governments of most major countries across the world monitor their citizens emails, social media, and internet postings for radical or opposing views. Even telephone conversations are monitored for trigger words to show up suspected terrorism cells. Why do you think there are large computer complexes dedicated to monitoring and decrypting emails, conversations, cellphone messages etc? To believe otherwise is rather simplistic. In this day and age, we all need to watch our backs for groups trying to subvert and infiltrate.

Indoctrinisation comes in many forms and starts with the media and educational system at the earliest age. If you think your mind is not messed with, then think again and open your eyes.

And then said:

Of course school kids are forced to do things. Reciting, playing or singing the National Anthem, etc is mind control and brain washing. I dont see opt-out forms given to parents to allow their kids to be excluded from being subjected to any form of educational mind processing. Really, until you have studied the educational systems of more than one country, you have no idea how every country begins to instill wanted behaviour at a very early age. But...I agree that all countries are probably equally as bad as each other and finger pointing by governments is just another way to direct attention at some bad guy - Russia, China, North Korea, whoever is the baddie at the moment.

Why all this posturing anyway ? "my Dad is bigger/tougher than your Dad" or "my country is better than your country" ?
It just serves to divide us, which is what the war mongers want so they can send kids to war for glory and the bankers want so they can lend money to both sides.

 

 

disclosure: im a first grade teacher, and taught kindergarten before that.

 

well of course we are indoctrinated from birth. THAT will never ever cease. how do you think civilization and technology have been perpetuated? you dont propose we start over at square one with every new birth do you? ive got four kids. i tell them to share, no i forced them to share early on...is that BAD? should i go natural and just let them figure it out? 

now move from a micro-family-level to a more macro-societal level....and you have to have the same thing going on if you want your society to exist AT ALL. we absolutely need to indoctrinate kids or they will be a bunch of nasty savages. its about control and its results are positive. the national anthem, the pledge of allegiance are good for the kids but as a teacher i explain why we need it. when we pledge, we are not just mindlessly pledging to some govt, we are pledging to eachother because america is govt by and for the people (in theory). who wouldnt want to pledge that we need to provide liberty (freedom) and justice for all? its about community and society. 

i indoctrinate my own kids in all kinds of things. catholicism, patriotism, fairness, thinking for one's self when the time comes, and things like tradition...not only because i think i should or want to, because its my RIGHT to. those things make me relatively FREE in the world scope. sure i pay taxes and have to register my guns etc.. but here in america we are relatively free to raise our kids with whatever indoctrination we want to....good or bad. well, if we have perpetual democrat presidents and govt, we will be inherently LESS free.

CHINA on the other hand forces LOVE AND LOYALTY OF the communist party on kids and adults. thats a far more dangerous thing. CHINAs people will revolt soon OR there will be some big war, and if its against the USA, we will of course win and liberate the chinese people from state control with their social scorecard.

[spartan max2]

4 hours ago, ocpaul20 said:

Spartan Max2 said:

 

Not completely true, as the governments of most major countries across the world monitor their citizens emails, social media, and internet postings for radical or opposing views. Even telephone conversations are monitored for trigger words to show up suspected terrorism cells. Why do you think there are large computer complexes dedicated to monitoring and decrypting emails, conversations, cellphone messages etc? To believe otherwise is rather simplistic. In this day and age, we all need to watch our backs for groups trying to subvert and infiltrate.

Indoctrinisation comes in many forms and starts with the media and educational system at the earliest age. If you think your mind is not messed with, then think again and open your eyes.

It's not equivical at all. China bans all dissident not comparable to any western country. To act otherwise is just misinformed, which is understandable, people have been turning a blind eye to China for a long time.

China created. "great firewall" as in citizens can only access goverment approved censored sites. Facebook, Instagram, Google, Reddit, South Park, etc is all banned. Effectively blocking access to any dissident thought from the rest of the world.

Effectively all it's social media bans dissidenting comments, journalist are locked up, political oppenents barred.

China bans media outlets that speak dissident, it's all state ran. People lose their jobs over dissidents. 

Film, games, music, sports all banned unless they speak the party line. Hollywood has subtly changed many movie narratives to do business there.

China censors any post that mocks Xi. Hence the whole pooh bear images Xi being banned in China.

China strong arms any corporation from doing business their unless to speak the party propaganda. 

If you get bored look of their twisted social credit system. Basically if you step out of line and speak or think any dissident it hurts your credit score. If you don't keep your family in line it hurts your credit score. Sick dystopian ****.

 

I hate flooding people with links but the examples are endless.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China

https://www.techinasia.com/top-10-censorship-china-2015

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/24/world/asia/china-internet-censorship.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-china-41523073

https://www.pcmag.com/news/372420/shutterstocks-image-censoring-in-china-sparks-employee-to-r

 

You can post memes about Trump, argue with people online and in public, vote for who you want, and even run office.

All forms of dissident that are vigorously suppressed in China. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by spartan max2

[ocpaul20]

4 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

It's not equivical at all. China bans all dissident not comparable to any western country. To act otherwise is just misinformed, which is understandable, people have been turning a blind eye to China for a long time.

China created. "great firewall" as in citizens can only access goverment approved censored sites. Facebook, Instagram, Google, Reddit, South Park, etc is all banned. Effectively blocking access to any dissident thought from the rest of the world.

Effectively all it's social media bans dissidenting comments, journalist are locked up, political oppenents barred.

China bans media outlets that speak dissident, it's all state ran. People lose their jobs over dissidents. 

Film, games, music, sports all banned unless they speak the party line. Hollywood has subtly changed many movie narratives to do business there.

China censors any post that mocks Xi. Hence the whole pooh bear images Xi being banned in China.

China strong arms any corporation from doing business their unless to speak the party propaganda. 

If you get bored look of their twisted social credit system. Basically if you step out of line and speak or think any dissident it hurts your credit score. If you don't keep your family in line it hurts your credit score. Sick dystopian ****.

Some of what you say is true, but some other things are not.

The Great Firewall is a pain but it does not stop me from getting opinions from places like this. Yes, social media is generally censored and news outlets which criticize China seem to get blocked. BBC and Wikipedia are examples of this. If you cannot live with this, then do not go to China and use the internet. However, there are plenty of people here who manage to survive and go online without these websites. Google is another example and any Google-owned site is blocked here and has been since 2012. I suspect the US government and its allies get Google search results from internet citizens anyway.

Pretending the USA or UK do not do the same things is just putting your head into the sand. Julian Assange and whistleblowers are examples of how the authorities have stamped down on 'dissidents' or people who expose truths they dont like.

No-one HAS to join the Communist Party. Sometimes it helps with getting jobs, sometimes it helps with getting things done, but there is no forcing people to join - unless you work for a state owned company or the military, then you probably do have to. Normal citizens do not have to join as I know plenty of people who do not belong.

Films, games, are probably not distributed in China unless they are morally in-line with guidelines, but that does not mean they have to spout the party line - just that they are not going to cause offence. I dont know how all this works, but we do see most of the latest films very soon after release.

You have to understand, that propaganda works both ways. Some is positive and some is negative and unless you live here for a while, you cannot appreciate the way it all works. However, I will say this... it is VERY different to the way it works in the West and I do not think people understand how the differences in culture and education create a different outlook in life.

I think the Social Credit System is an alternative to other methods of punishing people. If you can dissuade people from breaking the law or being socially unruly, then maybe it is better than locking people up? I dont know, but other countries do it is different ways and use other punishments.

As far as I know, there are no restrictions to being a Christian. I have been to 5 or 6 Catholic churches in various places across China and no-one seems to care much. There is a camera at the door but there are cameras everywhere in other countries too. It just helps to identify thieves etc. I dont know who looks at the video or whether they record who attends services, it does not appear that they take much interest in normal day-to-day church life. You would probably have to get a priest who works in China on here to tell you the real story.

Spartan Max2, have you ever been to China? Do you actually know what you are talking about or is this just Christian gossip and hearsay?

[SHaYap]

Propaganda Mill, political policy wind chime ...

~

[spartan max2]

14 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

Some of what you say is true, but some other things are not.

The Great Firewall is a pain but it does not stop me from getting opinions from places like this. Yes, social media is generally censored and news outlets which criticize China seem to get blocked. BBC and Wikipedia are examples of this. If you cannot live with this, then do not go to China and use the internet. However, there are plenty of people here who manage to survive and go online without these websites. Google is another example and any Google-owned site is blocked here and has been since 2012. I suspect the US government and its allies get Google search results from internet citizens anyway.

Pretending the USA or UK do not do the same things is just putting your head into the sand. Julian Assange and whistleblowers are examples of how the authorities have stamped down on 'dissidents' or people who expose truths they dont like.

No-one HAS to join the Communist Party. Sometimes it helps with getting jobs, sometimes it helps with getting things done, but there is no forcing people to join - unless you work for a state owned company or the military, then you probably do have to. Normal citizens do not have to join as I know plenty of people who do not belong.

Films, games, are probably not distributed in China unless they are morally in-line with guidelines, but that does not mean they have to spout the party line - just that they are not going to cause offence. I dont know how all this works, but we do see most of the latest films very soon after release.

You have to understand, that propaganda works both ways. Some is positive and some is negative and unless you live here for a while, you cannot appreciate the way it all works. However, I will say this... it is VERY different to the way it works in the West and I do not think people understand how the differences in culture and education create a different outlook in life.

I think the Social Credit System is an alternative to other methods of punishing people. If you can dissuade people from breaking the law or being socially unruly, then maybe it is better than locking people up? I dont know, but other countries do it is different ways and use other punishments.

As far as I know, there are no restrictions to being a Christian. I have been to 5 or 6 Catholic churches in various places across China and no-one seems to care much. There is a camera at the door but there are cameras everywhere in other countries too. It just helps to identify thieves etc. I dont know who looks at the video or whether they record who attends services, it does not appear that they take much interest in normal day-to-day church life. You would probably have to get a priest who works in China on here to tell you the real story.

Spartan Max2, have you ever been to China? Do you actually know what you are talking about or is this just Christian gossip and hearsay?

You can illegally use a VPN to jump the firewall, sure. But the fact someone has to do that shows what level of censorship there is. 

No one "has" to join the communist party. Well it's the only party allowed so you see how that's irrelevant. 

Using culture as a defense of violating human rights seems weak to me. When other views are aggressively censored how can it be claimed that it's not pure indoctrination?

You can defend the censorship of dissent and authoritatianism if you want, but you can't claim that it's the same in the west because it simply isn't. 

CCP propaganda makes things up like claiming that Tiawan is part of it's government. 

Also, I'm an atheist and my post reply  had nonething to do with Christianity.

Edited December 9, 2019 by spartan max2

[ocpaul20]

On 12/9/2019 at 8:03 AM, spartan max2 said:

You can illegally use a VPN to jump the firewall, sure. But the fact someone has to do that shows what level of censorship there is. 

No one "has" to join the communist party. Well it's the only party allowed so you see how that's irrelevant. 

Using culture as a defense of violating human rights seems weak to me. When other views are aggressively censored how can it be claimed that it's not pure indoctrination?

You can defend the censorship of dissent and authoritatianism if you want, but you can't claim that it's the same in the west because it simply isn't. 

CCP propaganda makes things up like claiming that Tiawan is part of it's government. 

Also, I'm an atheist and my post reply  had nonething to do with Christianity.

Yes, there is censorship. However, pretending it does not exist in almost every country is being rather naieve. Maybe not on the same level, but I reckon it is still there if you look around.  As I say, if you do not agree with the culture, then do not go there. Other countries have problems with an open internet too. Just watch out for yourselves as I think you may be subject to the same restrictions soon, the way things are going.

When there is only one predominant political party, things are different. Yes there is no choice politically, but the Communist Party is not just a political party, it is a social system as well. As I explained it can help with getting jobs and sometimes being a member is required for various types of employment.

It isn't the same in the West because things are different and if you were actually writing from a place of knowledge, you would know. Culture, education, upbringing is very different, not necessarily worse or better, but just different.

The Chinese government claims Taiwan and Tibet are parts of China, therefore government is irrelevant. Currently Taiwan is governing itself. If you understood the history, you would u nderstand the issues. I think I have explained it fairly without bias.

[pbarosso]

On 12/10/2019 at 12:48 AM, ocpaul20 said:

Yes, there is censorship. However, pretending it does not exist in almost every country is being rather naieve. Maybe not on the same level, but I reckon it is still there if you look around.  As I say, if you do not agree with the culture, then do not go there. Other countries have problems with an open internet too. Just watch out for yourselves as I think you may be subject to the same restrictions soon, the way things are going.

When there is only one predominant political party, things are different. Yes there is no choice politically, but the Communist Party is not just a political party, it is a social system as well. As I explained it can help with getting jobs and sometimes being a member is required for various types of employment.

It isn't the same in the West because things are different and if you were actually writing from a place of knowledge, you would know. Culture, education, upbringing is very different, not necessarily worse or better, but just different.

The Chinese government claims Taiwan and Tibet are parts of China, therefore government is irrelevant. Currently Taiwan is governing itself. If you understood the history, you would u nderstand the issues. I think I have explained it fairly without bias.

the very fact that you are posting this from china makes us all very suspicious. 91 posts?  are you sitting in a  state internet propaganda farm trolling sites like Quora and reddit helping to build a good image for china's govt? 

all in all, the PEOPLE should decide for themselves. taiwan is free of chinas garbage. i dont care what CHINA says about taiwan. LOOK AT HONG KONG and tell me that isnt the people rising up against oppression. i will await your well placed sweet words of chinese apologetics.

[ocpaul20]

On 12/17/2019 at 8:37 AM, pbarosso said:

the very fact that you are posting this from china makes us all very suspicious. 91 posts?  are you sitting in a  state internet propaganda farm trolling sites like Quora and reddit helping to build a good image for china's govt? 

all in all, the PEOPLE should decide for themselves. taiwan is free of chinas garbage. i dont care what CHINA says about taiwan. LOOK AT HONG KONG and tell me that isnt the people rising up against oppression. i will await your well placed sweet words of chinese apologetics.

I have declared my location, have you?

So tell me where I have been unfair to either side? I just tried to explain a little more since people who do not live here do not really understand what it is like.

Not everyone chooses to live in a democracy, and sometimes not everyone can choose for themselves. Sometimes we just end up living in a country and have to put up with the conditions. Do you think poor people in Africa choose from a human perspective, to live in poverty?

I think we all need to look at our own country and to see what is good in it rather than focus on what is bad. Where you focus your energy grows and expands so be positive.

Show me where was I building a good image for either side? I believe both sides have skeletons in their cupboard - as all countries have. If you believe what you read in the papers or on TV then you are being very naieve. I have to say, it does look as if you believe what you read or see on TV. How sad.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

No, we need to focus on what’s wrong with our country in order to remove the “what’s wrong”. For example, my government refuses to even discuss the possibility of anthropogenic climate change or even to acknowledge that for whatever reason the climate is changing. That needs to change. I could easily ignore it and focus on all the good stuff going on, but that is wilful blindness to the fact things do need to be improved.