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DarkHunter

Mass protest in Iran

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and then
11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Perhaps.However, in Matthew 5:17, we have "... "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.", suggesting that Jesus confirmed the validity of the Old Testament. (or rather, the Tanahk), which causes a wee bit of a dilemma. 

I don't mean that the scripture is no longer valid.  It just isn't applicable to followers of Christ.  The Jewish law remains to this day - for Jews who do not accept Christ.  He brought a new covenant of grace for those who believe in Him.  That doesn't mean they have license to do anything they like, it means they are not under the condemnation of the law.  My point is that I disagree with Alchopwn on the scripture he cited from John.  I have no doubt that he is telling the truth about his perception of that scripture but I've never heard anyone else come to that conclusion.  Christ never demanded that anyone believe in Him and certainly didn't command His followers to kill in His name.

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6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Is it not enough that a great many people were strangled to death, their faces left black and their tongues swollen in death rictus, and then burned as a public spectacle following the Catholic interpretation of this scripture, as it applied to the Office of the Holy Inquisition ? 

If this is your justification then there is nothing more to say except you seem to want to impute evil to God Himself because of the acts of men.  Do you believe that the Catholic church of the Inquisition were following Christ?

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13 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

it may be part of their plan to bring about Armageddon.

Where do you get this nonsense?  Seriously... can you cite a source that explains the "agenda" of Christian Zionists?  You are describing an Islamic doctrine, actually.  The Shia Twelvers believe that their Mahdi will only come when the world is at the brink and some, at least, of them want to kindle that fire.  If you can cite some proof of Christian Zionists having a similar outlook I'd like to see it.

I consider myself a Christian Zionist and the meaning for me is quite simple.  I do not believe that God has finished His work with the Jews in Israel.  I believe His promises to them will be kept in HIS good time.  I support their right to that land as immutable, eternal.  That does NOT mean that I think they are perfect or without sin.  Anyone who has done any reading in the OT knows just how repetitively disobedient they've been.  OTOH, can you name another group of people who have suffered more?

If you actually believe that CZs want to bring down Armageddon then your ignorance is on display.  That's like blaming the weatherman for a hurricane he warns you of.

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Alchopwn
8 hours ago, and then said:

If this is your justification then there is nothing more to say except you seem to want to impute evil to God Himself because of the acts of men.  Do you believe that the Catholic church of the Inquisition were following Christ?

I don't accept that there is a god, so as far as I am concerned your entire religion is the acts of evil men.  And yes, I think the Inquisition were following the word o Christ as they understood it, as do a lot of morally deficient human beings.

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Habitat
10 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I don't accept that there is a god, so as far as I am concerned your entire religion is the acts of evil men.  And yes, I think the Inquisition were following the word o Christ as they understood it, as do a lot of morally deficient human beings.

Strange that a man who talks about moral deficiency, seems fascinated with Al Capone, how does that work?

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Farmer77
8 hours ago, and then said:

he Shia Twelvers believe that their Mahdi will only come when the world is at the brink and some, at least, of them want to kindle that fire.  If you can cite some proof of Christian Zionists having a similar outlook I'd like to see it.

You mean like the words of Jesus? 

 

Quote

Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

“You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’[a] standing where it[b] does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

24 “But in those days, following that distress,

“‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it[d] is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

 

Edited by Farmer77
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Alchopwn
8 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Strange that a man who talks about moral deficiency, seems fascinated with Al Capone, how does that work?

I study history.  I don't run bootleg liquor.  I also think Alchopwn is an amusing play on words, as it mocks that period of history, when alcohol effectively pwned the whole USA.  

Edited by Alchopwn
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Habitat
15 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I study history.  I don't run bootleg liquor.  I also think Alchopwn is an amusing play on words, as it mocks that period of history, when alcohol effectively pwned the whole USA.  

You seem like an intelligent person, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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DarkHunter

Iran is at about 100 hours of its internet blackout.  The Iranian government is claiming they have stopped the protests and are blaming America and Israel for them but given what little is getting out and the fact the internet is still cut off it seems the protests are still continuing.  

As far as casualties so far the Iranian government is only saying a handful of protesters and security forces have died, amnesty international say they have confirmed 100 dead protesters, other groups are claiming at minimum 200 dead protesters, and people in Iran are saying well over 1,000 protesters killed.  There were some reports of the IRGC bringing in PMUs from Iraq to help suppress the protesters, there has also been unconfirmed reports that security forces are barely manned.  A man claiming to work for the police in Tehran have said there was only 340 security personnel available in Tehran to stop the protesters and how they simply didnt have enough men.  

As for what's getting out now is mostly pictures of dead protesters and people concerned over what happened to friends and family as a lot of protesters have just disappeared after being arrested and most are presumed dead.  Also reports of IRGC and militia groups loyal to the government patrolling streets and breaking up any gathering of people normally by firing live rounds at any group they come across.

But to be clear very little of that has been confirmed so it should be taken for whatever people think it's worth as so little information is making it out of Iran. 

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Hankenhunter
On 11/19/2019 at 3:25 AM, RoofGardener said:

1229 ? Really ? Well, that is very interesting. 

OK, permit me to re-phrase the question..... 

Can you give me a single example of any Christian priest urging that non-Christians be killed purely for being non-Christians in the last 800 years ? (with the possible exception of the Westboro Baptist Church ? But then, they want to burn EVERYBODY). 

Hmmm, let me ask the US/Mexico border guards that question. Lets see, cutting water bottles left for refugees, shooting refugees, children dying in cages. Yup, just good Christian men going about God's work.

real Christian would run screaming in horror at what trump's border pogrom has achieved.

Isn't trump one of your moral upstanding Christians? I would assume so after watching all the religious grifters praying over him with the laying on of hands. Hypocrites the lot of them. You too, for supporting them.

Edited by Hankenhunter
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Michelle

Many Latinos answer call of the Border Patrol in the age of Trump

Piled into a white van driving along the United States-Mexico border, the young men and one woman beheld the wall and weighed just how easily it could be conquered.

Isaac Antonio did not seem impressed.

“That’s easily climbable,” the 20-year-old declared.

Their chaperon, a Border Patrol agent, called out from behind the wheel: “Good luck, bro! I’m sure you can, but good luck.”

When the Border Patrol was established in 1924, Latinos were a tiny minority. By 1989, they made up almost 36% of the agency. Now, Latinos make up a little more than 50% of the Border Patrol, according to 2016 data.

cont...

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-citizens-academy-20180323-htmlstory.html

So they are letting this happen and or doing it to their own people?

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16 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

as they understood it, as do a lot of morally deficient human beings.

Fair enough.

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Manwon Lender
On 11/20/2019 at 9:06 AM, and then said:

Where do you get this nonsense?  Seriously... can you cite a source that explains the "agenda" of Christian Zionists?  You are describing an Islamic doctrine, actually.  The Shia Twelvers believe that their Mahdi will only come when the world is at the brink and some, at least, of them want to kindle that fire.  If you can cite some proof of Christian Zionists having a similar outlook I'd like to see it.

I consider myself a Christian Zionist and the meaning for me is quite simple.  I do not believe that God has finished His work with the Jews in Israel.  I believe His promises to them will be kept in HIS good time.  I support their right to that land as immutable, eternal.  That does NOT mean that I think they are perfect or without sin.  Anyone who has done any reading in the OT knows just how repetitively disobedient they've been.  OTOH, can you name another group of people who have suffered more?

If you actually believe that CZs want to bring down Armageddon then your ignorance is on display.  That's like blaming the weatherman for a hurricane he warns you of.

Who is the Christian Zionist religious leader of your congregation. Do you follow the teachings of Matt Hagee?

Edited by Manwon Lender

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26 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Who is the Christian Zionist religious leader of your congregation. Do you follow the teachings of Matt Hagee?

I think you misunderstand.  To be a Christian Zionist does not require a special congregation.  It is a belief but has no "church" so to speak.  I'm familiar with John Hagee's support of Israel and he definitely would be considered a CZ but his church background is Pentecostal, I think.  CZs AFAIK, are in most congregations.  As I said, it is the belief that God chose out one people to be sanctified in the eyes of the world.

That has never meant that they were better than anyone else - or worse, FTM.  They are set aside to be an example of what happens when a people follow God's word AND when they choose not to.  The truly remarkable aspect of the history of the Jews is that they have kept themselves together as a cohesive community with common traditions that have survived millennia.  Despite the real price they've paid in blood for many generations.  

ETA:  The only "teachings" I follow where supporting Israel is concerned is this:

Genesis 12:3

3I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you.”  

There has never been a nation that cursed the Jews that did not eventually suffer grievous weakening or even failure in the aftermath.

Edited by and then

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Manwon Lender
34 minutes ago, and then said:

I think you misunderstand.  To be a Christian Zionist does not require a special congregation.  It is a belief but has no "church" so to speak.  I'm familiar with John Hagee's support of Israel and he definitely would be considered a CZ but his church background is Pentecostal, I think.  CZs AFAIK, are in most congregations.  As I said, it is the belief that God chose out one people to be sanctified in the eyes of the world.

That has never meant that they were better than anyone else - or worse, FTM.  They are set aside to be an example of what happens when a people follow God's word AND when they choose not to.  The truly remarkable aspect of the history of the Jews is that they have kept themselves together as a cohesive community with common traditions that have survived millennia.  Despite the real price they've paid in blood for many generations.  

ETA:  The only "teachings" I follow where supporting Israel is concerned is this:

Genesis 12:3

3I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you.”  

There has never been a nation that cursed the Jews that did not eventually suffer grievous weakening or even failure in the aftermath.

First you know that I am a strong supporter of Israel, if you look at any thread on the subject you will see that. So you don't base your Christian Zionist faith on any congregation or any single Christian Zionist Leader. You only consider yourself a Christian Zionist because of the belief system, but you are not an active member of any organisation, because you describe yourself as an unrepentant Christian Zionist. Is this True?

Edited by Manwon Lender

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22 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

because you describe yourself as an unrepentant Christian Zionist. Is this True?

I thought I'd been quite clear in my explanation.  I assume you are about to explain to me what my belief REALLY means?  If os, go ahead but I have to say, it takes a lot of arrogance to try to explain to a person what they believe.

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Manwon Lender
36 minutes ago, and then said:

I thought I'd been quite clear in my explanation.  I assume you are about to explain to me what my belief REALLY means?  If os, go ahead but I have to say, it takes a lot of arrogance to try to explain to a person what they believe.

Telling some one what they beleive and asking a question are two different things and I am not doing that. I agree it would certainly be arrogant to try and tell some one what they beleive. But please answer the questions I Asked about, no disrespect intended.

However you describe yourself as a Unrepentant Christian Zionist in your about me page.

About Me
I'm a 50 something, unrepentant Christian Zionist.  That label has differing meanings depending on a person's politics but for me it's simple.  I steadfastly believe that the descendants of Jacob (Israel) have an everlasting right to live in the land that is today known as Palestine. That doesn't mean I agree with every secular government action in the state of Israel.  I also believe that we are living in a period of time known Biblically as the "last times".  Politically, I am Conservative on fiscal issues and tend to be Libertarian in my social views.  I tend to be overly passionate about my views on the problems in the M.E. and have been known to occasionally be snarky and rude.  I TRY to make those episodes, few and far between. If I get on your nerves, temporary use of the "ignore" button can be your friend. :D  I try to learn from everyone here, especially from those whose opinions clash DRAMATICALLY with my own.  I try ....

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Alchopwn
22 hours ago, Habitat said:

You seem like an intelligent person, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior will make you a Christian.

Actually reading the Bible will make you an atheist.

Should reading the Bible fail to make one an atheist, it is proof positive that one cannot reason.

Edited by Alchopwn
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Habitat
2 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior will make you a Christian.

Actually reading the Bible will make you an atheist.

I am none of the above

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Alchopwn
4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I am none of the above

I choose to disagree.  I think your reasoning skills are deficient, and quite possibly your morality as well.  Consider, you believe that infinite punishment for finite crimes is somehow just, and you believe in talking animals (snakes, asses etc) other than humans (and certain birds such as parrots, and sign language using primates, none of which feature in the Bible anyhow).

Edited by Alchopwn

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Habitat
4 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I choose to disagree.  I think your reasoning skills are deficient, and quite possibly your morality as well.  Consider, you believe that infinite punishment for finite crimes is somehow just, and you believe in talking animals (snakes, asses etc) other than humans (and certain birds such as parrots, and sign language using primates, none of which feature in the Bible anyhow).

I think you are mistaking me for someone else !

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Alchopwn
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I think you are mistaking me for someone else !

So you don't believe in Christianity anymore then?  Good to read.  Gratz on quitting the cult buddy, it takes a great willpower to overcome a lifetime of brainwashing.

Edited by Alchopwn

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RoofGardener
7 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

Hmmm, let me ask the US/Mexico border guards that question. Lets see, cutting water bottles left for refugees, shooting refugees, children dying in cages. Yup, just good Christian men going about God's work.

real Christian would run screaming in horror at what trump's border pogrom has achieved.

Isn't trump one of your moral upstanding Christians? I would assume so after watching all the religious grifters praying over him with the laying on of hands. Hypocrites the lot of them. You too, for supporting them.

Nice evasion @Hankenhunter. Now, I will repeat my question. 

Can you give me a single example of any Christian priest urging that non-Christians be killed purely for being non-Christians in the last 800 years ? (with the possible exception of the Westboro Baptist Church ? But then, they want to burn EVERYBODY). 

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RoofGardener
On 11/19/2019 at 9:03 PM, Tatetopa said:

Realizing that Wikipedia is not always reliable, here is something that might be of interest to RoofGardner..  It is at least within the last 400 years.

Another example of the persecution of heretics under Protestant rule was the execution of the Boston martyrs in 1659, 1660, and 1661. These executions resulted from the actions of the Anglican Puritans, who at that time wielded political as well as ecclesiastic control in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. At the time, the colony leaders were apparently hoping to achieve their vision of a "purer absolute theocracy" within their colony .[citation needed] As such, they perceived the teachings and practices of the rival Quaker sect as heretical, even to the point where laws were passed and executions were performed with the aim of ridding their colony of such perceived "heresies".

The Boston martyrs is the name given in Quaker tradition[1] to the three English members of the Society of Friends, Marmaduke Stephenson, William Robinson and Mary Dyer, and to the Friend William Leddra of Barbados, who were condemned to death and executed by public hanging for their religious beliefs under the legislature of the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1659, 1660 and 1661. Several other Friends lay under sentence of death at Boston in the same period, but had their punishments commuted to that of being whipped out of the colony from town to town.

Hmm... most interesting. However, it is worth noting that these "Anglican Puritans" where an extreme group. The English King demanded that they repeal the laws that authorised prosecution and execution of non-Anglicans and - when they failed to do so - he dissolved the colony and put it directly under crown supervision. 

Nevertheless, they DID mandate the death of "non-Christians" (by their definition), and accordingly they become honourary Iranian Mullah's.  ! :P 

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Manwon Lender
1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Nice evasion @Hankenhunter. Now, I will repeat my question. 

Can you give me a single example of any Christian priest urging that non-Christians be killed purely for being non-Christians in the last 800 years ? (with the possible exception of the Westboro Baptist Church ? But then, they want to burn EVERYBODY). 

Yes this happened during the Crusades, I think the religious factions who did this were not the norm, but it did happen.

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