Vision quests, anyone?

[+Desertrat56]

Just now, littlebrowndragon said:

Ok, thanks for the advice.  And apologies to all.   I have no intention of causing offence. (I am not trying to mimic Native American traditions/rituals etc.  As I said, I'm trying to explore the unconscious mind.)   I'll call it something else.

 

As to going down a tunnel, that's not really, as far as I am concerned, a script as such.  In dream language, as I think of it, going down a tunnel represents accessing the unconscious mind.  It is merely, as it were, scene setting.

 

Anyway, thanks again for keeping me right.

You are welcome.  Don't worry too much about causing any offense to anyone, most of us just like to educate and learn.  That's why you were asked about your method. 

[XenoFish]

13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I could say that @Not A Rockstar  is someone like @Piney that I would trust with my life  in these matters.  Different traditions but wise and honest men.

Yeah, you seriously don't want to trust me on something like this. I got some skill, but I am nowhere near piney or rockstar's level. 

[littlebrowndragon]

16 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

You are welcome.  Don't worry too much about causing any offense to anyone, most of us just like to educate and learn.  That's why you were asked about your method. 

Now that you've explained, some of those earlier posts now make more sense to me!  However,  due to my ignorance I was, I now realise, being a bit insensitive.  Thanks for the understanding.

Edited November 18, 2019 by littlebrowndragon

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Yeah, you seriously don't want to trust me on something like this. I got some skill, but I am nowhere near piney or rockstar's level. 

Well personally I would trust you, but I wouldn't recommend you to an innocent.

[XenoFish]

30 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Well personally I would trust you, but I wouldn't recommend you to an innocent.

Fair enough.

[Alchopwn]

On a related note, how is everyone's lucid dreaming?  I nearly replicated H.P.L.'s Dream Quest of the Unknown Kadath a couple of weeks ago in my dreams for amusement's sake.  Sadly when I got to the top of Mount Kadath, there was nobody there.

[littlebrowndragon]

Having had a think last night about Vision Quests etc, as discussed on this thread, I would like to clear up any possible confusion regarding what I am doing in my work with dreams and any other means used to obtain images or visions.  

 

Firstly, last night I realised that there are important, not to say fundamental, differences between what I do (I described the process in one of my posts) and the likes of Vision Quests (VQs) or Guided Meditation (GM).  The process I use which I formerly, and mistakenly, referred to as a VQ, I will now call a Waking Dream Experience (WDE).  One of the fundamental differences between WDE and any other technique lies in the process used.  

Many cultures and religions use various techniques to induce “visions”.  Native American cultures can use fasting, among other techniques, to induce their visions.  Christian mystics also use fasting, as do Buddhists.  Many religions and cultures use various techniques to the same end. Buddhists are unusual in that they deliberately ignore any visions they induce.  

Visions, hallucinations and other similar phenomena are all, in fact, waking dreams.  (Hallucinations etc can be experienced through all or any of the senses.  Thoughts such as delusional thoughts are also hallucinations i.e. waking dreams.)  A waking dream is just like a night-time dream except one experiences it while awake rather than while asleep.  Both come from the same source, the unconscious mind, and both carry messages. 

Christian mystics often used fasting as a means of inducing waking dreams.  This is to say that they put their bodies, and therefore their minds, under extreme stresses such as would induce waking dreams. Some techniques used by other religions/cultures include the consumption of drugs as a means of forcing waking dreams.  Note, however, that the important concept here is that of force.  In other words, all of these techniques – drugs, fasting etc - are a means of attempting to control the process i.e. to “force” the emergence of a waking dream.  Guided Meditation is also a technique used to force the emergence of such dreams.   However, these techniques are all unnatural.  They are unnatural because in all cases they are attempts at controlling the dreams.  For example, suppose you were having a face-to-face conversation with someone.  You would not naturally try to force them to speak.  You would not naturally attempt to control what they say, nor how they say it nor when they say it.  Clearly exercising such control over someone else is unnatural behavior and will distort whatever they say.  Similarly, exercising control over waking dreams distorts the messages contained in the dreams.  Also, anything that is unnatural has detrimental consequences for people’s mental and physical health. 

So, one fundamental difference between what I do i.e. Waking Dream Experiences, and what, say, a Christian mystic does is that I NEVER attempt to control the process, nor control the outcome.  As described, I sit and wait for the emergence of a dream image.  After a time, if nothing is forthcoming, I stop.  I have said that I sometimes use alcohol, but only in very small quantities and only for relaxation.  I have also said that to start a WDE, I imagine going down into a tunnel or a cave.  This is only a means of setting the scene.  I do not follow a script.  I do not, therefore, use the same technique as a Guided Meditation.  A script, too, is just another means of exerting control over the process.

 

One other fundamental difference: the technique I use is completely new.

 

Finally, a brief explanation of the development of my work on dreams.  

I have learned most of what I know about dreams from my sister and followed this up with personal experience.  About 20 years ago she was diagnosed with schizophrenia.  In spite of, not because of, her treatment at the hands of the medical profession, she was able to cure her schizophrenia herself i.e. solely by her own efforts.  In fact, due to the medical profession’s misdiagnosis of her condition – initially she had extreme anxiety, not, as the medics insisted, depression (and this despite her insistence that she had anxiety, not depression) - her mental health deteriorated to such an extent that she developed schizophrenia.  She had, in fact, developed an unusually severe form of the condition.  None of this e.g. the hallucinations, the psychoses etc was picked up by the medics.  It was only through her own self-diagnosis that those in whose care she supposedly was, eventually sat up and took notice.  Even then, there was nothing that medicine could offer her except hefty doses of numerous very strong drugs.  These she refused, preferring to let her mind, her psychological immune system, work at finding a cure rather than allowing the drugs to reduce her to nothing more than a zombie.

As part of her cure, my sister developed an understanding of the mind and how it works.  An important aspect of this was gaining an understanding of dreams, and that all hallucinations/visions etc are waking dreams.  (Hallucinations are, of course, a symptom of schizophrenia.) It was this realization which enabled her to cure the hallucinations and the schizophrenia.    

 

PS: Lucid Dreaming is another technique which attempts to control the emergence of waking dreams and therefore carries the same health warnings.   

Edited November 19, 2019 by littlebrowndragon

[+Not A Rockstar]

Wow,  "detrimental consequences for people’s mental and physical health"  ??? 

"Lucid Dreaming is another technique which attempts to control the emergence of waking dreams and therefore carries the same health warnings."

How alarming!  

Perhaps, you can tell me how I as a Mystic with a generally Christian bent, trance worker and shaman force anything when I journey or meditate. Do explain to me exactly what it is in my practice that is so dangerous and wrong and ill informed to warrant you talking about it here the way you do? I assume you have actually worked with these forms long enough to know exactly what force is used and how it is dangerous enough to possibly require an inference that any of this has anything to do with schizophrenia. I would also like to know your actual direct experience to be able to claim a mental health hazard inherent in lucid dreaming, or Christian mysticism (I assume all the other forms are as hazardous?). How about shamanism? How about shadow work? 

It is important that this forum, which is a resource for many, has good info, so I am speaking up now and really want to know where you get your "facts" from. You already have revealed you have almost no understanding of NA Vision Quests, but, you corrected and that was pretty adult of you. Then you go and post that mess in #32 about other spiritualities you do not know firsthand or personally, but, so be it. 

I have only been at this for 50 years so I am sure interested. Go for it.

[XenoFish]

Wait? There are "health issues" concerning lucid dreaming? Never heard of them. Kinda been doing it my whole life. 

[littlebrowndragon]

18 hours ago, Not A Rockstar said:

I have only been at this for 50 years so I am sure interested. Go for it.

 

If you have been at this for 50 years then I can only imagine the damage you have done to yourself, and unfortunately, such damage will have desensitised your mind such that you will no longer be aware of, or sensitive to, the bad effects that these things are having on you.  I am reminded of those Hindus who manage to induce a state such that they can stick knives and such through their skin without feeling it.  No.  Your body should be able to detect when it is being damaged and tell you. 

It is my understanding that vision quests are induced by stressing the body, quite severely sometimes e.g. self-torture (a method also used by Christian mystics), (this not through experience but by reading about it and by talking to people such as yourself who tell how they practice these things) and I have learned that you simply cannot stress your mind or body like this without inducing psychotic episodes.  Perhaps your mystical practices do not involve such stresses.  I cannot really respond to you without you give me more information about what you practice and how etc.  If you induce visions in any way, I’d be interested to know what your visions have been.  For it is also my experience that people I have encountered who have been practicing any of the mystical arts such as lucid dreaming receive visons that are quite clearly telling them that they are damaging themselves.

As to my lack of experience with respect to e.g. vision quests, consider the following:

 Suppose I was interested in phantom limbs, the sensation that amputees sometimes get where they sense the presence of the limb still being there.  My interest would not induce me to have one of my own limbs amputated.

I also used to be curious about the effects of LSD, but I would never take LSD to find out because I have also heard of the dangerous side effects which have, for example, people jumping out of windows.

Finally, one does not need to go to extremes to find out the effects of stressing mind or body.  If less extreme situations tell one that one’s mind is being damaged, then by extrapolation, one knows that more extreme situations will also cause damage.

Also, when people are doing things to their mind and body, tampering with mind and body, they are doing so without understanding anything about the mind.  Actually, they don’t even know what a healthy mind and body look like, so they are in no position to know whether they are doing damage.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, littlebrowndragon said:

 

 

If you have been at this for 50 years then I can only imagine the damage you have done to yourself, and unfortunately, such damage will have desensitised your mind such that you will no longer be aware of, or sensitive to, the bad effects that these things are having on you.  I am reminded of those Hindus who manage to induce a state such that they can stick knives and such through their skin without feeling it.  No.  Your body should be able to detect when it is being damaged and tell you. 

 

It is my understanding that vision quests are induced by stressing the body, quite severely sometimes e.g. self-torture (a method also used by Christian mystics), (this not through experience but by reading about it and by talking to people such as yourself who tell how they practice these things) and I have learned that you simply cannot stress your mind or body like this without inducing psychotic episodes.  Perhaps your mystical practices do not involve such stresses.  I cannot really respond to you without you give me more information about what you practice and how etc.  If you induce visions in any way, I’d be interested to know what your visions have been.  For it is also my experience that people I have encountered who have been practicing any of the mystical arts such as lucid dreaming receive visons that are quite clearly telling them that they are damaging themselves.

 

As to my lack of experience with respect to e.g. vision quests, consider the following:

 

 Suppose I was interested in phantom limbs, the sensation that amputees sometimes get where they sense the presence of the limb still being there.  My interest would not induce me to have one of my own limbs amputated.

 

I also used to be curious about the effects of LSD, but I would never take LSD to find out because I have also heard of the dangerous side effects which have, for example, people jumping out of windows.

 

Finally, one does not need to go to extremes to find out the effects of stressing mind or body.  If less extreme situations tell one that one’s mind is being damaged, then by extrapolation, one knows that more extreme situations will also cause damage.

 

Also, when people are doing things to their mind and body, tampering with mind and body, they are doing so without understanding anything about the mind.  Actually, they don’t even know what a healthy mind and body look like, so they are in no position to know whether they are doing damage.

 

Spoken like a true noob.

[littlebrowndragon]

17 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Wait? There are "health issues" concerning lucid dreaming? Never heard of them. Kinda been doing it my whole life. 

You may never have heard of health issues about lucid dreaming, but that does not mean that the practice is not harmful.  

People have practiced the likes of lucid dreaming for a very long time.  People have also been at war for a very long time. That war is commonplace does not mean war is good, nor even that it is the best solution to life's problems.

In addition, in an earlier post you said that you do not do dream analysis.  So, if the images you receive in your dreams are warning you to stop lucid dreaming, you would never know.

I also refer you to my answer #25 to Not A Rockstar.

[+Desertrat56]

3 minutes ago, littlebrowndragon said:

You may never have heard of health issues about lucid dreaming, but that does not mean that the practice is not harmful.  

People have practiced the likes of lucid dreaming for a very long time.  People have also been at war for a very long time. That war is commonplace does not mean war is good, nor even that it is the best solution to life's problems.

In addition, in an earlier post you said that you do not do dream analysis.  So, if the images you receive in your dreams are warning you to stop lucid dreaming, you would never know.

I also refer you to my answer #25 to Not A Rockstar.

What harm exactly are you talking about?  I need specifics.

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, littlebrowndragon said:

You may never have heard of health issues about lucid dreaming, but that does not mean that the practice is not harmful.  

People have practiced the likes of lucid dreaming for a very long time.  People have also been at war for a very long time. That war is commonplace does not mean war is good, nor even that it is the best solution to life's problems.

In addition, in an earlier post you said that you do not do dream analysis.  So, if the images you receive in your dreams are warning you to stop lucid dreaming, you would never know.

I also refer you to my answer #25 to Not A Rockstar.

I've lucid dreamed practically my entire life. I know who you addressed it to and you're wrong. 

As for the mental movies I see while dreaming. They often reflect my subconscious desires, wishes, and even fears. When it comes to fears, I can resolve them. 

How long have you even been at this anyway? 

[+Not A Rockstar]

So, you have no experience with the practices you are claiming have actual mental and physical health impacts. The facts and basis for this is just you repeating yourself.

IOW, the rest of what you say about them is vacant.

Glad this is settled.

[XenoFish]

59 minutes ago, Not A Rockstar said:

So, you have no experience with the practices you are claiming have actual mental and physical health impacts. The facts and basis for this is just you repeating yourself.

IOW, the rest of what you say about them is vacant.

Glad this is settled.

Probably one of those "I read this book/site/forum once" types.

[+Not A Rockstar]

27 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Probably one of those "I read this book/site/forum once" types.

An extreme book on ascetism back in the Middle Ages practiced by a tiny few mystic monks and now Mysticism is a mind killer and any effort to train or learn and govern your own mind is suspect, basically. I have read some of those horror stories too.

The closest to ascetism I go is I reject any and all drugs, enhancers or alcohol related to any spiritual practice. I do not trust anything less, but, that is just me and how I have trained my godkids over the years. We drink on our own time, not spiritual time.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Not A Rockstar said:

An extreme book on ascetism back in the Middle Ages practiced by a tiny few mystic monks and now Mysticism is a mind killer and any effort to train or learn and govern your own mind is suspect, basically. I have read some of those horror stories too.

The closest to ascetism I go is I reject any and all drugs, enhancers or alcohol related to any spiritual practice. I do not trust anything less, but, that is just me and how I have trained my godkids over the years. We drink on our own time, not spiritual time.

Ascetism is fine in good measure. Shows self-control and willpower. Taken to extremes it's just another form of fanaticism. Too little it's just indulgence. 

[XenoFish]

The main problem with the Art now is the amount of lazy occultist and seekers. There really is no order in it. Even as a chaote, I know this is true. Someone reads just one book and 'knows everything'. Never seen that work out good.

[+Not A Rockstar]

10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Ascetism is fine in good measure. Shows self-control and willpower. Taken to extremes it's just another form of fanaticism. Too little it's just indulgence. 

What I do myself now, after so many years is not the same as I teach to beginners when I did that. Sobriety and doing the work, putting the time in, that was the basics for them. That was hard enough for a few of them  

Ascetism in extreme is horrible stuff, but hardly mysticism. 

[XenoFish]

16 minutes ago, Not A Rockstar said:

What I do myself now, after so many years is not the same as I teach to beginners when I did that. Sobriety and doing the work, putting the time in, that was the basics for them. That was hard enough for a few of them  

Ascetism in extreme is horrible stuff, but hardly mysticism. 

Some times, just getting a To-Do list done is the greatest act of self discipline a person can perform. 

[Piney]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Ascetism is fine in good measure. Shows self-control and willpower. Taken to extremes it's just another form of fanaticism. Too little it's just indulgence. 

That's a Zen Buddhist teaching. 

[XenoFish]

33 minutes ago, Piney said:

That's a Zen Buddhist teaching. 

And it all comes so naturally. 

[Piney]

Just now, XenoFish said:

And it all comes so naturally. 

I said it a half dozens times here and I'll say it again......It's a damn shame a Temple didn't find you as a teen. 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Piney said:

I said it a half dozens times here and I'll say it again......It's a damn shame a Temple didn't find you as a teen. 

I guess I've just got that vibe naturally.