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BrooklynGuy

US softens position on Israeli settlements

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RoofGardener
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

And then, I dont know about removing the Zionist Entity, but I am aware and we have all seen the influence of Christian Zionism on US Policy concerning Israel and the Middle East. Cases in point, the US drops out of the Iranian Nuclear deal, the movement of the US Embassy to Jerusalem, the declaration that Jerusalem is Israels Capital, and the Soften position of the US on Israel settlements.  Many Americans have little or no idea how much influence Christian Zionists have with President Trump. Many of the changes in US Policy have also been influenced by Vise President Mike Pence who is a Christian Zionist.

The Vise President has brought President Trump on board and advised him on the above issues. It's  very interesting to me that this subject has not been discussed here on the forum, it may be that many forum members are unaware of what is going on at the White House and in Washington DC concerning this subject.

Hmm.. have you considered that these moves where NOT inspired by "Christian Zionists" in the USA, but where rather prompted by the continued intransigence and bloody-mindedness of the Palestine Liberation Organisation ? Perhaps Trump is getting revenge for the humiliation that Yasser Arafat inflicted on President Carter by lying to him in the Rose Garden meeting ? 

Incidently.. what makes you think that MIke Pence is a "christian zionist" ? He supports Israel, but does that necessarily make him a "Zionist" ? 

Edited by RoofGardener

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Manwon Lender
16 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Oh it's been tossed and turned over and over a long time ago, members like @and then ends up blowing so hard he might as well be called Monica 

~

Well, I think it's time to bring it back. Especially since the Christian Zionist lobbiest are so very deeply entrenched in the White House at this time. Also, because the current Vise President is a. Christian Zionist.

Thanks the information, and your joke about Monica is Dam  funny

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Phaeton80
6 hours ago, and then said:

Just curious, P80.  Where would you draw a line where damage to the region and the world is concerned if efforts to remove the Zionist "Entity" would cause devastation to both?  Is there ANY limit to what you feel is justified to bring "justice" to the Palestinians?


Yes AT, lets just maintain the present status quo and not act against these crimes against humanity on account of the devastation it may cause (the 'righteous Samson option'). Lets not free and return the godgiven rights to the Palestinians on account of what they may do in the future in return for the crimes perpetrated against hem. Wonderful Christian ethics if I ever did hear some.

Imagine a 1940'ies AT posing thesame disingenuous, scandalous question to a contemporary German Jew withering away in one of the ghetto's, robbed of their freedom, rights, future, humanity. Lets get one thing clear here, I would rage against the crimes committed against the ~1940'ies Jews in thesame way I do in regards to the Palestinians today. See, thats the difference between you and me; I oppose injustice irrespective of the victim and support no specific political entity, let alone with a fanatical dispostion. You, on the other hand, mainly zealously (blindly) support the Israeli Zionist political entity, rationalising any and every crime she commits like a true fanboy.

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Manwon Lender
41 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. have you considered that these moves where NOT inspired by "Christian Zionists" in the USA, but where rather prompted by the continued intransigence and bloody-mindedness of the Palestine Liberation Organisation ? Perhaps Trump is getting revenge for the humiliation that Yasser Arafat inflicted on President Carter by lying to him in the Rose Garden meeting ? 

Incidently.. what makes you think that MIke Pence is a "christian zionist" ? He supports Israel, but does that necessarily make him a "Zionist" ? 

There is no doubt that they were inspired by the Christian Zionists, currently President Trump has two of the Christian Zionist Top leaders as personal advisers . These men also gave sermons at the opening of the new US Embassy in Jerusalem, The sermons opened the event and closed the event. One of the men was John Hagee and the other was Robert Jeffress.

Here are some links about the VP and Christian Zionism, but I thought that everyone knew  that Pence was a Christian Zionist.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/big-story/how-christian-zionists-got-their-man-white-house

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-vice-president-pence-christians-united-israel-annual-d-c-summit/

Edited by Manwon Lender
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RoofGardener
On 11/20/2019 at 12:34 PM, ExpandMyMind said:

This simply isn't true. Again, I have quoted actual statistics and you have nothing more than empty, baseless propaganda.

I'll do so again and maybe you'll actually read it this time?

....

Well, here is a passage from one of the documents you cited ? 

 

.... the structure of Arab society in Palestine was still quasi-feudal. At the top of it was a small aristocracy of landowners, who had been admitted long before the War to tile effendi or governing class of the Turkish Empire, Many of them were wealthy and most of them well-educated men, who from college-life at Beirut or elsewhere or from travel had acquired the outward forms of European culture. .........Next in the social scale came a middle-class of professional and business men in the towns-there were a few small industries, notably soapmaking at Nablus-and of the more prosperous owner-cultivators in the plains. But this class was small; and the great majority of the Arab population were peasantry or fellnhcua, some of them owners of their little plots of land, but mostly tenants or cultivators on the estates of &he effendi, who in many cases were “ absentee landlords “. At the lowest level wefit the Bedouin, nomads from the desert, still largely pastorill, but also engaged in primitive agriculture. Their number w;is estimated, probably too highly, in 1922 as a triile over 100,000.

So, like I said earlier. A feudal society with the majority being the peasants, and the majority of THEM being tenents to absentee landlords. It was THIS category of people that fell foul of the Jewish habit of buying the land from these landlords, only to find them occupied by - in effect - illegal squatters. (in law, if not morally).  

 

Edited by RoofGardener

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RoofGardener
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

There is no doubt that they were inspired by the Christian Zionists, currently President Trump has two of the Christian Zionist Top leaders as personal advisers . These men also gave sermons at the opening of the new US Embassy in Jerusalem, The sermons opened the event and closed the event. One of the men was John Hagee and the other was Robert Jeffress.

Here are some links about the VP and Christian Zionism, but I thought that everyone knew  that Pence was a Christian Zionist.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/big-story/how-christian-zionists-got-their-man-white-house

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-vice-president-pence-christians-united-israel-annual-d-c-summit/

I would suggest that there is PLENTY of doubt that they were inspired by "Christian Zionists". The middle east eye article relies on this characterisation on one pundit - somebody called Dan Hummel. In other words, it's an opinion. Just ONE opinion. Mike Pence is a Christian, no doubt. He also made a speech at a group called Christians For Israel. But like I asked earlier.. does that make him a "christian zionist" ? 

I would suggest that President Trumps policies towards Israel as more to do with disgust at the endless PLO mendacity and warmongering, than they are to do with some "Christian Zionist" movement. For 50 years the world - and the USA - have tried offering the PLO endless carrots. Now Trump is trying the Stick instead ! :) 

Edited by RoofGardener

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ExpandMyMind

As I nearly finished my post I realised where we're going wrong. I'm arguing that, 'Most of the arable land (the land Zionists were looking to buy up) was owned by Palestinians', while you're replying as though I have argued, 'Most Palestinians were landowners'. Your quote shows that the majority of Palestinians weren't land owners, not that the majority of land wasn't owned by Palestinians. And, in fact, the document you quoted also mention musha-owned lands.

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, here is a passage from one of the documents you cited ? 

 

.... the structure of Arab society in Palestine was still quasi-feudal. At the top of it was a small aristocracy of landowners, who had been admitted long before the War to tile effendi or governing class of the Turkish Empire, Many of them were wealthy and most of them well-educated men, who from college-life at Beirut or elsewhere or from travel had acquired the outward forms of European culture. .........Next in the social scale came a middle-class of professional and business men in the towns-there were a few small industries, notably soapmaking at Nablus-and of the more prosperous owner-cultivators in the plains. But this class was small; and the great majority of the Arab population were peasantry or fellnhcua, some of them owners of their little plots of land, but mostly tenants or cultivators on the estates of &he effendi, who in many cases were “ absentee landlords “. At the lowest level wefit the Bedouin, nomads from the desert, still largely pastorill, but also engaged in primitive agriculture. Their number w;is estimated, probably too highly, in 1922 as a triile over 100,000.

So, like I said earlier. A feudal society with the majority being the peasants, and the majority of THEM being tenents to absentee landlords. It was THIS category of people that fell foul of the Jewish habit of buying the land from these landlords, only to find them occupied by - in effect - illegal squatters. (in law, if not morally).  

 

That is incorrect (or, rather, the point you are trying to make from it is incorrect), which is strange because it actually mentions musha (or masha'a) lands:

Quote

In 1923 a Commission was appointed by the High Commissioner to examine the system of ownership known as masha'a, under which the whole of the property in a village is held in common, the individual shares being revised and divided every two years, an obvious bar to any agricultural development,

------------

 In 1923, 56 per cent. of the villages were masha’a in 1930, 46 per cent.

From The Land Question, regarding musha lands:

Quote

In 1933, High Commissioner Arthur Wauchope estimated that there were between 4 and 5 million dunams of musha*- held land, mostly in the plains and valley regions.30

A reminder of what 'musha' means:

Quote

Two other classifications of landownership and tenure were known in Palestine: mudawara, or jiftlik lands, and musha*. Mudawara lands were originally those held in private possession and then turned over to the possession of Sultan Abdul Hamid.

---------

The musha* land system had at its core collective village ownership or collective tenure of a land area, with each qualified participant in a village or other designated area entitled to shares, generally not parcels, in a particular land area. On a periodic basis of usually one, two, or five years, shares were redistributed allowing each qualified shareholder the opportunity to use the more fertile and arable lands which corresponded to particular shares within a collective unit. The musha* land system evolved from tribal organization in which there were common grazing rights over a certain territory.   

For reference, there was 7-8 million dunams of total arable land in all of then-Palestine and there are 25 million dunams of total land altogether.

Quote

By 1948, at the end of the British Mandate in Palestine, Jews had acquired approximately 2 million dunams of land, mostly in the valley and coastal areas  

At Israel's creation they owned less than 10% of land in all of Palestine and only less than 20% of land in what actually became Israel.

So the figures quoted in the Commission of 56% of land being Musha-owned looks to be accurate, but somehow that equates to, 'and the great majority of the Arab population were peasantry or fellnhcua, some of them owners of their little plots of land, but mostly tenants or cultivators on the estates of &he effendi, who in many cases were “ absentee landlords “. * See my statement at the beginning of the post. This was where I realised two different arguments were being made.

My point remains. Palestinians owned most of the arable land in Palestine, even after the Nakba. And even afterwards, Arab Palestinians owned as much, and likely more, land in what became Israel than Jews themselves did. So let's not pretend that the people there were 'squatters'.

If you look to the earlier diagrams, they illustrate my point perfectly:

israel-arab-jewish-land-ownership-1945.j

 

Edited by ExpandMyMind

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ExpandMyMind

Sorry for the mess that is the above post. Hopefully I managed to get my point across.

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odas
8 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm.. I'm not sure how these questions are relevant, but.... 

1) No. The vast majority (as of now) of Palestinians are muslims, but there are a small (and declining) number of Christians, Zoroastrians, and - for all I know - Pastafarians. There are no Jews in the Palestinian population of the West Bank or Gaza, other than in settlements. 

2) Same answer as above ? 

3) No, I don't believe so ? I believe that semites cover a multitude of different nationalities and cultures ? 

Thank you. Questions are very relevant for those who can understand. Let's leave them for now.

Now back to your post about refugee status for Palestinian children and how the rules were bent when it comes to Israel..

WHO descided, that any Jew, any descendent of Jews in the world, ever, had the right to return, to move, to Israel, even if their ancestors of hundreds of years have not been born in this area?

Where did this "right" came from?

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, odas said:

Thank you. Questions are very relevant for those who can understand. Let's leave them for now.

Now back to your post about refugee status for Palestinian children and how the rules were bent when it comes to Israel..

WHO descided, that any Jew, any descendent of Jews in the world, ever, had the right to return, to move, to Israel, even if their ancestors of hundreds of years have not been born in this area?

Where did this "right" came from?

It came from the Israeli parliament. They have the power - as a sovereign nation - to make any policy they want regarding immigration ? 

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RoofGardener
2 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Sorry for the mess that is the above post. Hopefully I managed to get my point across.

.. bear with me..... 

So who actually OWNS musha land ? 

Edited by RoofGardener

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ExpandMyMind
5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

.. bear with me..... 

So who actually OWNS musha land ? 

It was owned communally by the people working the land. I can just send you a copy of the book if you want? Message me an email address and I'll send it.

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and then
10 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

it may be that many forum members are unaware of what is going on at the White House and in Washington DC concerning this subject.

I assure you, it has been discussed and ranted over, ad nauseum but the usual suspects will be happy to do so again.  The idea that there is some powerful Cabal of Christians who are running things from the shadows is quaint.  Be sure and sound the alarm wherever you have the opportunity.  

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and then
8 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Yes AT, lets just maintain the present status quo and not act against these crimes against humanity on account of the devastation it may cause (the 'righteous Samson option').

Just wanted your own opinions clarified P.  You rant about my insanity but admit your own willingness to see literally ANY level of destruction and chaos to remove the Jew from Palestine.  Right.  Carry on.

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RoofGardener
59 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

It was owned communally by the people working the land. I can just send you a copy of the book if you want? Message me an email address and I'll send it.

Hang fire on that... I'll read the internet first...... but thanks for the offer. 

Hmm... this seems somewhat similar to the jewish Kibbutz system, except that the land ownership is more formalised in the latter. 

 

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RoofGardener
13 minutes ago, and then said:

I assure you, it has been discussed and ranted over, ad nauseum but the usual suspects will be happy to do so again.  The idea that there is some powerful Cabal of Christians who are running things from the shadows is quaint.  Be sure and sound the alarm wherever you have the opportunity.  

A cabal of christians ? But... but.. I thought that the USA was controlled by The Jews, not The Christians ? :o 

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Phaeton80
52 minutes ago, and then said:

Just wanted your own opinions clarified P.  You rant about my insanity but admit your own willingness to see literally ANY level of destruction and chaos to remove the Jew from Palestine.  Right.  Carry on.


I never used the word insane, or insanity against your person. I also never stated, claimed or even remotely implied I desired 'removing the Jew from Palestine'. Those are blatant lies, blatant misrepresentations.. once again.

You are a boldfaced liar sir, a raging hypocrite, and an inverted Christian (or anti Christian, as you like).

Edited by Phaeton80
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Manwon Lender
7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I would suggest that there is PLENTY of doubt that they were inspired by "Christian Zionists". The middle east eye article relies on this characterisation on one pundit - somebody called Dan Hummel. In other words, it's an opinion. Just ONE opinion. Mike Pence is a Christian, no doubt. He also made a speech at a group called Christians For Israel. But like I asked earlier.. does that make him a "christian zionist" ? 

I would suggest that President Trumps policies towards Israel as more to do with disgust at the endless PLO mendacity and warmongering, than they are to do with some "Christian Zionist" movement. For 50 years the world - and the USA - have tried offering the PLO endless carrots. Now Trump is trying the Stick instead ! :) 

Since President Trump became President changes in policy toward Israel have been historic. He is also the first President to have Christian Zionist advisers. The voter base they can offer is many millions across the country. As for VP Pence, he is an evangelical Christian and this is the Christian base where Christian Zionists come from. 

I appreciate your opinion, however I don't agree with you because you also offer nothing but an opinion. 

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.AKUMA.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.globalresearch.ca/albert-einsteins-1948-letter-to-the-new-york-times-comparing-israeli-politicians-to-nazis/5653561/amp

 

Einstein knew this political leadership of Israel at the time and infact today shares Nazi like ideology.

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and then
1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:


I never used the word insane, or insanity against your person. I also never stated, claimed or even remotely implied I desired 'removing the Jew from Palestine'. Those are blatant lies, blatant misrepresentations.. once again.

You are a boldfaced liar sir, a raging hypocrite, and an inverted Christian (or anti Christian, as you like).

Then where would you draw the line where receiving justice for the Palestinian is concerned?  If it becomes clear that the only way they obtain what they desire is for the region to burn, will you be okay with that?  You seem unwilling to honestly answer that question.  Why is that?

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Phaeton80
17 minutes ago, and then said:

Then where would you draw the line where receiving justice for the Palestinian is concerned?  If it becomes clear that the only way they obtain what they desire is for the region to burn, will you be okay with that?  You seem unwilling to honestly answer that question.  Why is that?


You seem to have some issues reading words and not reading into them what confirms your skewed worldview. I never stated I desired for them to obtain 'what they desire' (undoubtedly you mean what Hamas desires, as you seem to conveniently equate Palestinians with terrorists / Hamas). I stated I desired for them to be treated as equal to their Jewish brethren, to be treated as humans with human rights.. with their own land and self determination.

In fact, there is more (direct/indirect) evidence strongly implying it is the Zionist element which desires the region to burn (opening the way to Eretz Yisrael), as it more or less has been by way of the American symbiot doing their destructive bidding, that is to say; destabilizing and stratifying the ME. Your comical attempts to imply I have something to hide, sir, are pathetic. I have answered your question, an answer you refuse to (fully) comment on because you know your position is ethically untenable.

Edited by Phaeton80

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

A cabal of christians ? But... but.. I thought that the USA was controlled by The Jews, not The Christians ? :o 

 The Christian Zionist or the Jewish people it's about the same, but you know that.:-*

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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, and then said:

I assure you, it has been discussed and ranted over, ad nauseum but the usual suspects will be happy to do so again.  The idea that there is some powerful Cabal of Christians who are running things from the shadows is quaint.  Be sure and sound the alarm wherever you have the opportunity.  

Thanks for your input, I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

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and then
23 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

 The Christian Zionist or the Jewish people it's about the same, but you know that.:-*

This demonstrates that you don't really grasp what Christian Zionism is about.  At its core, CZ is simply a belief in the Bible's verses about God's promises to His Chosen.  This is easily misunderstood because of all the biases that have grown up around that expression.  People seem to get angry that God would dare set one group above another so they resist that by hating on the group that was set aside.

My stance on the Jews is that they hold irrevocable title to the lands within the boundaries set in scripture and that someday they WILL possess it all.  The timing of that is up to God, not them.  When they do wrong they have always been punished for it and when their enemies try to eliminate them they will always fail.  Those who cheer the suffering of the Jews in Israel will fail as well.  Their own lives will reflect their hate and their losses will become apparent in time.  

CZ's do not excuse every bad act of the secular government of Israel.  They simply refuse to join the bandwagon of near universal hatred for the act of defending themselves against their enemies.  I have much respect for those who will be honest about their intentions toward the Jews of Israel.  Those who disgust me are people like Ex and P80, who will not admit that they'd cheer to see another holocaust if it removed Jews from the land.  I pray that they either repent of such hate or that they live long enough to see Israel's enemies crushed under foot.  

Those who'd call me a hater for that stance are welcome to see it any way they like.  It's God's promise that they will be crushed, not mine.

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Manwon Lender
57 minutes ago, and then said:

This demonstrates that you don't really grasp what Christian Zionism is about.  At its core, CZ is simply a belief in the Bible's verses about God's promises to His Chosen.  This is easily misunderstood because of all the biases that have grown up around that expression.  People seem to get angry that God would dare set one group above another so they resist that by hating on the group that was set aside.

My stance on the Jews is that they hold irrevocable title to the lands within the boundaries set in scripture and that someday they WILL possess it all.  The timing of that is up to God, not them.  When they do wrong they have always been punished for it and when their enemies try to eliminate them they will always fail.  Those who cheer the suffering of the Jews in Israel will fail as well.  Their own lives will reflect their hate and their losses will become apparent in time.  

CZ's do not excuse every bad act of the secular government of Israel.  They simply refuse to join the bandwagon of near universal hatred for the act of defending themselves against their enemies.  I have much respect for those who will be honest about their intentions toward the Jews of Israel.  Those who disgust me are people like Ex and P80, who will not admit that they'd cheer to see another holocaust if it removed Jews from the land.  I pray that they either repent of such hate or that they live long enough to see Israel's enemies crushed under foot.  

Those who'd call me a hater for that stance are welcome to see it any way they like.  It's God's promise that they will be crushed, not mine.

I understand what your saying and I agree with most of it. The Bible clearly states that the Jewis people are Gods chosen people, scripture clearly states this and clearly speaks of the covenant between the Jewis people and God. I also understand that the Jews hold irrevocable title to the lands within the boundaries set in scripture and that someday they WILL possess these lands in there entirety. However, the timing of that is up to God, not them. But when Israel became a state in 1948 also by scripture this signaled the beginning of what is known as the End Times.

When this occurs the second coming of Jesus will also occur, and as the scripture says this will also cause the events written in the Book of Revelation to come to pass, along with the Rapture. Now there are some Radical Christian Zionists who are trying to make this happen by trying to influence events that will lead to Israel recovering all it's lands as outlined in Biblical scripture. Now it is a fact that at the opening of the New US Embassy in Jerusalem that the two Christian Zionist Pasters who gave the opening and closing speechs are some of the Radicals (John Hagee and Robert Jeffress) both of these men have large congregations and are top leaders in the Christian Zionist national community.

These men are also religious advisers to President Trump along with being Political lobbyists in Washington DC. They supported  President Trump along with their congregations in the 2016 Presidenial Election which amounted to Millions of votes Nation wide. 

So, andthen I do understand some of what's currently happening and I am learning more every day.

Oh and by the way, on this subject I certainly don't think your a Hater.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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