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Men jailed after unearthing $15M Viking hoard

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Professor Buzzkill

UK police "Oi mate, you got a license for that treasure?"

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ExpandMyMind
4 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

The simple fact is they'd ban metal detecting if people didn't declare treasure trove, many countries have banned it, in American there's vast areas where you can't detect not even take a stone, we don't want that to happen here, i have a good collection of Celtic, Roman, Saxon, viking, medieval and every other period, i can detect ancient land every day of the week and that's how i want it to stay.

You a detectorist? That's pretty cool. I'd never have the patience for it but I love the show about those two detectorists. It's actually one of the better TV shows out there.

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OverSword
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Could it be viewed as akin to mineral rights?  As in federal and state lands, the government owns the mineral and timber rights.

Maybe. I see it more like the guy that owned this house before me left this vase in the attic, turns out it’s valuable and now it’s mine. 

Lets say you were gardening and when you dug a hole for your new roses you found a cavalry sword from the civil war. It’s of some historical value, would you call the government? Should they have some defacto claim to it? I don’t believe so.

 I don’t think there is a good argument for this English law to be on the books but as I said I’m not surprised they just accept it. No disrespect intended, it just seems part of their character.

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and then
6 hours ago, OverSword said:

I don’t think it’s a fair law. I think if it’s found on private property that is the business of the land owner and the second party if it is not the owner that finds it. To think that something automatically belongs first to the government if it’s buried in the ground and the owner is long dead is bull, but the feeling that is fair seems very English so I’m not surprised. Often things go for more than the market value if put up for auction with the correct buyers attending. This law doesn’t give you the opportunity to do that if a museum decides they want it, and yet neither the museum nor the government has put forth any resources or effort in the recovery. There is no good reason either entity should profit.

Exactly.  It's why a smart person would simply melt it down and sell the precious metal.  Screw the government thieves who stiff you on the real value.  

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Troublehalf
1 hour ago, skliss said:

Where, in what you posted does it say that?

Because the objects found in the UK are/were over 100 years old. Thus if they were found in the USA (i.e, the Viking stuff was buried there a thousand years ago) it becomes Federal property, classified as a 'archaeological resource' under Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 which states that any man-made object over 100 years old becomes archaeological relevant and as such has to be declared and any concealment is a no-no. Again, this is based on my remembrance of the stuff. I used to go metal detecting and talked to a few people about it. I'm sure I could skim over wiki again but I think that's roughly right.

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Troublehalf
26 minutes ago, and then said:

Exactly.  It's why a smart person would simply melt it down and sell the precious metal.  Screw the government thieves who stiff you on the real value.  

The government, as far as I know, does nothing but contact people to value it. Who are usually parts of museums. They in turn value it and pass it on to museums and they can bid on it. The government isn't 'stiffing' anything. If I go on some private land, with permission, find some items, the find is split 50:50 between me and the land owner. The government doesn't value the pieces, various experts do. As for your comment on melting down important historical artefacts which are worth vastly more than the value of the metal (for example, some of the coins were worth $65,000 each) is beyond stupid, even from a criminal. The duo have, most likely, buried the treasure and are going to wait the 10 years to get out of prison (more like 5 with good behaviour) and then go and dig up the trove and do it again. Why do I think this? Because they refuse to say where they buried the rest. It's assumed to be buried due to phone images showing a freshly dug hole with the objects in.

In fact, experts have criticised the UK government for its generosity in regards to treasure rewards, saying that it shouldn't be so generous and is 'stupid'. I don't think a potential £6,000,000 ($7,700,000) for the pair is 'unfair' or the 'government stiffing'. As I just said, the UK government has one of, if not the, most generous treasure laws in the world. Where you're rewarded up to 50% of the market value (with the other 50% going to the private landowner it was found on). In many nations, you'd get nothing but a 'thanks' and maybe not even that.

Edited by Troublehalf
Correction
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Manwon Lender
7 hours ago, OverSword said:

I don’t think it’s a fair law. I think if it’s found on private property that is the business of the land owner and the second party if it is not the owner that finds it. To think that something automatically belongs first to the government if it’s buried in the ground and the owner is long dead is bull, but the feeling that is fair seems very English so I’m not surprised. Often things go for more than the market value if put up for auction with the correct buyers attending. This law doesn’t give you the opportunity to do that if a museum decides they want it, and yet neither the museum nor the government has put forth any resources or effort in the recovery. There is no good reason either entity should profit.

Well I still think it'iscfair, by having a Museum purchase it anyone can enjoy seeing or studying it. The finder, and property owner get paid and split Full Market Value. Many places even some in the US the state or government just take it all.

So we can agree to disagree on this subject.

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OverSword
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

Well I still think it'iscfair, by having a Museum purchase it anyone can enjoy seeing or studying it. The finder, and property owner get paid and split Full Market Value. Many places even some in the US the state or government just take it all.

So we can agree to disagree on this subject.

So you think it’s a good law because you could see them in a museum and because the finder and property owner get allegedly fair market value, ignoring that the government then takes probably 30% of that money and not considering that specialty collectors items often go for far more than the estimated value? See a lot of coins in the museum do you? Okay. God forbid admitting a law is unnecessary. It’s the law it must be right.

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

So you think it’s a good law because you could see them in a museum and because the finder and property owner get allegedly fair market value, ignoring that the government then takes probably 30% of that money and not considering that specialty collectors items often go for far more than the estimated value? See a lot of coins in the museum do you? Okay. God forbid admitting a law is unnecessary. It’s the law it must be right.

In my last answer to your post, I said we can agree to disagree. But that's not good enough for you, basically your saying my opinion is worthless and yours holds all the merit. I am not offended by that you can chose to beleive anything you chose to, I really don't care because your are welcome to an opinion you have. I suppose you can't see the problem with that and thats alright by me. But there is no reason to try belittle someone because you don't agree with an opinion that hurts know one, But I suppose you feel right in doing so even though I don't understand why?

I am sorry you disagree but ask the guy in the link below if he is happy with his pay out. I know that everyone will not be happy, but I never said that all laws are good, I can admit that many are bad. But your 30% of money must be taxes even Mel Fisher paid taxes on the treasure from the ship wrecks he found.

But I do understand greed can play into any settlement of money, but not everyone is greedy some are great full for what they get, because it changes their lives.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/metal-detectorist-derek-mclennan-receive-2m-award-britain-biggest-viking-treasure-scotland-dumfries-a7733831.html

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Manwon Lender

Deleted for content.

Edited by Manwon Lender

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hetrodoxly
5 hours ago, OverSword said:

So you think it’s a good law because you could see them in a museum and because the finder and property owner get allegedly fair market value, ignoring that the government then takes probably 30% of that money and not considering that specialty collectors items often go for far more than the estimated value? See a lot of coins in the museum do you? Okay. God forbid admitting a law is unnecessary. It’s the law it must be right.

This post is just your imagination, none of it is true.

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ExpandMyMind
7 hours ago, and then said:

Exactly.  It's why a smart person would simply melt it down and sell the precious metal.  Screw the government thieves who stiff you on the real value.  

Melt down a treasure worth millions and sell it for a few hundred or thousand quid? Sound plan there, buddy.

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hetrodoxly
7 hours ago, and then said:

Exactly.  It's why a smart person would simply melt it down and sell the precious metal.  Screw the government thieves who stiff you on the real value.  

These smart people are in prison.

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hetrodoxly
5 hours ago, OverSword said:

So you think it’s a good law because you could see them in a museum and because the finder and property owner get allegedly fair market value, ignoring that the government then takes probably 30% of that money and not considering that specialty collectors items often go for far more than the estimated value? See a lot of coins in the museum do you? Okay. God forbid admitting a law is unnecessary. It’s the law it must be right.

How does the government take anything, these artifacts end up in museums that are free to enter, even you could come over and visit free of charge.

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hetrodoxly
8 hours ago, OverSword said:

 I don’t think there is a good argument for this English law to be on the books but as I said I’m not surprised they just accept it. No disrespect intended, it just seems part of their character.

Intelligent, cultured, not selfish, do things for the good of all, yes you could be right, shucks that rootin tootin tutankhamun mask could be melted down to make me a belt buckle, tie pin and a great big whopping ring, no disrespect intended, it just seems part of their character.

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Rolci
On 11/24/2019 at 11:56 AM, hetrodoxly said:

No that's not how it works, if it's deemed 'treasure trove' you have to declare it

Deemed by whom? When and how, and on what basis? Is there a document where the exact guidelines are laid out? Are you supposed to travel to the nearest museum at your own expense every time you find something shiny? Or are you supposed to call them every time so they come and visit? Maybe if we all did that all the time, they would stop coming and finders could lawfully become keepers. After all, I did call, but they never came to see.

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Rlyeh
12 hours ago, and then said:

Exactly.  It's why a smart person would simply melt it down and sell the precious metal.  Screw the government thieves who stiff you on the real value.  

Would you mind if someone went on your land and did that?

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BorizBadinov

I'm hoping and then was being sarcastic with that comment but I could be mistaken.

Treasure laws and legalities are never 100 percent fair. Human greed will always taint any find wether through destroyed artifacts or stealing by Nighthawks or claimed ownership. Oddessy Marine spent millions recovering artifacts from a sunken galleon only to have the Spanish government take it all through the courts. I found that ironic considering it was basically taken from another country to begin with but that's another story all together.

A couple in California found gold coins on thier property and had to go to court to keep it, and almost lost it I believe.

Archaeological data could be lost on ancient finds as well. Even dates on coins could help tie a find to an individual or battle. Tiny details the finder might be ignorant of that could be significant in some way. 

No system is perfect but it's a reasonable blend benefitting both parties. Better than years of court battles in my opinion. Find something of value and someone will try to take or claim it. At least they pay something.

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hetrodoxly
41 minutes ago, Rolci said:

Deemed by whom? When and how, and on what basis? Is there a document where the exact guidelines are laid out? Are you supposed to travel to the nearest museum at your own expense every time you find something shiny? Or are you supposed to call them every time so they come and visit? Maybe if we all did that all the time, they would stop coming and finders could lawfully become keepers. After all, I did call, but they never came to see.

Yes it's very well documented on what is and isn't 'treasure trove' put in place years ago by the archaeological society, you have a local field officer known to most detectorists as 'FLO' 99% of what we find isn't treasure trove, you can keep most of the Celtic, Roman, medieval coins, brooches etc you find, most detectorist  take their finds to FLO they provide a free service where they date, identify and give you a letter of authentication back with the find, in these days of fakes and forgeries that provenance from the museum increases the value of your find significantly if you wish to sell it, if you do find treasure trove you call FLO informing them, they send an archaeologist out because they like it to be left in position, because they're often more interested in the soil around the object, how deep it is, it's relationship to the landscape it sit's in, if it's a pile of gold coins in a pot and the museum already as a hoard of these coins they're likely to give you the coins back but probably keep the pot, if they want to keep the coins they have to raise the money to buy them off you, the only people making money from the find are the finder and land owner, entry to museums in the UK is free of charge.  

Is that enough info?

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OverSword
5 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

How does the government take anything, these artifacts end up in museums that are free to enter, even you could come over and visit free of charge.

Taxes.

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OverSword
4 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Intelligent, cultured, not selfish, do things for the good of all, yes you could be right, shucks that rootin tootin tutankhamun mask could be melted down to make me a belt buckle, tie pin and a great big whopping ring, no disrespect intended, it just seems part of their character.

Tuts treasure is cultural in nature and unique for the most part, were talking about a stash of not extremely rare old coins here of which there are no doubt thousands of examples. Apples/oranges. I’m not being greedy I’m being fair.  Did the government expend any resources recovering this stash of loot? So how do they have first say over it’s fate. Intelligent, cultured, gullible, sheep.

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OverSword
13 hours ago, and then said:

Exactly.  It's why a smart person would simply melt it down and sell the precious metal.  Screw the government thieves who stiff you on the real value.  

I don’t agree with that.  The law is wrong and in the case of something like a pile of coins there is no reason the “authorities” should have a say in its fate. Now if you find a Bronze Age Celtic religious item then a law like this is the right thing. But if you’re digging around your garden and come across a Roman coin that should be your affair and no one else’s.  The people that believe this law right because it preserves culture for all to enjoy are a bit like Hyacinth Bucket.

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OverSword
11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

In my last answer to your post, I said we can agree to disagree

After you had your say.  I had mine as well.  

Quote

But I do understand greed can play into any settlement of money, but not everyone is greedy some are great full for what they get, because it changes their lives.

Yes some are grateful for what they get and this way is easier than going about selling them yourself because you don't have to put forth any effort, but imagine if they knew they could have had double or triple the money?  Would they have then said "oh, it's alright.  this is good enough?

If you ever watched an auction television show you would know that somethings actual value is irrelevant if you get the right collectors in the room bidding against each other.  

Edited by OverSword

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BorizBadinov
55 minutes ago, OverSword said:

But if you’re digging around your garden and come across a Roman coin that should be your affair and no one else’s.  The people that believe this law right because it preserves culture for all to enjoy are a bit like Hyacinth Bucket.

I understand your point, but I think its more erring on the side of caution.

From all I have heard from most UK detectorists they really aren't looking at random coins and lots of common Roman items even. Its when a cache is found that they can glean some info from or cultural treasures. It's far more informative when its still in situ rather than out of context. No solution is perfect. We in the US don't have the same legacy of treasure that other parts of the world does.

All you have to do is look on Ebay for "Roman Antiquities" to see lots of items for sale. Helmets, swords, rings, and coins. Even gold items. They must not take much. 

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hetrodoxly
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Taxes.

What taxes?

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