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Mello_

Why call him a God?

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Mr Walker
On 11/27/2019 at 4:57 PM, Mello_ said:

What interesting in the Bible which I read two times is following:

That God banned Adam and Eve not for eating from tree of knowledge but because they are smart now and could eat from tree of immortality. Thats interesting. Like he want that we expirience death becuase its process which he established. 

 

 

 

 In the creation story they were already eating from  the tree of life. God banned them from the garden and put guards on it specifically to keep them from  continuing to eat it

 Well, he said it. Given knowledge of good and evil, plus immortality, a human would eventually become a god, but a very immature and unwise one, and thus a very dangerous one .

He told them that they would now  die, but it took a LONG time for them to age and die (again in the story line, which you can think of as a creation myth) because the effects of the tree of life were felt for a long time. He did not establish death. it is arguable that nothing died in the garden, in the creation myth.

This is also how it is said to be on  the new earth, after the resurrections and judgement.

  There was not only no death, but no pain or suffering.  In the story we  brought this on ourselves , as we do in other stories like Pandora's box and Prometheus  

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
On 11/28/2019 at 12:18 AM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Why would god prevent Adam from knowing good and evil, only to give Noah the commandments several thousand years later ? Why not just give them to Adam from the beginning ?

That never made sense to me.

It is all just a story but the context of the story is that  adam and eve were newly created beings.

They were like little children. It was planned that the y would spend millennia in the garden, gradually maturing, learning, and evolving wisdom, and would eventually have been given access to the fruit of knowldge of good and evil.

  With that, and immortality, in the story they would have evolved into gods themselves, and become like their "father"/creator

But, like little children, they had rules, and they knew the rules should be obeyed. They  even knew specifically the consequences of breaking the rules.

BUT in the story the y believed the serpents story over that  of their creator.  It was THIS which was the original sin, and which separated them from an intimate connection with their god  Of course, given the state of humanity at the time of writing, the writers HAD to give an explanation for how god's wonderful creations could have come to the condition of the day.

This story provides an explanation for the fall of mankind, from one of grace and perfection, to how we are today. 

No one knew it was all down to our primate ancestry, and the biological drivers of those primates, combined with the  psychological constructs we  developed as self aware beings like fear, greed, envy, hate, but also love,  compassion altruism etc. 

Thus, we are driven by evolution to many destructive behaviours, yet we know we are capable of better, and we KNOW that we often choose to do harm to ourselves and others . 

No wonder we ask ourselves why this is so, and construct stories to explain it 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Crazy Horse
3 hours ago, danydandan said:

Why do you think this? 

Why do you do this and why do you think that?

Through personal experience.

And Because it makes everything go better, with less suffering etc.

Why wouldn't you do this?

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Sherapy
On 11/29/2019 at 11:17 AM, XenoFish said:

You did change your reality. I think you might be misunderstanding me. Our own personal reality, the lens through which we see things is what needs to change. A lot of bad stuff made you very pessimistic, that was your resulting lens. You made the choice to get help, to work through your grief, to change the lens to something better. It didn't change the past, but how you handled it NOW. 

I can not change all the stuff that happened to me starting in 2011. I had to go through hell before getting to solid ground and seeing something of a light. I had to work through my pain to create a better lens. 

Does that make sense?

Yes, you do make sense. 

For me, the situation brought up feelings of anger, and hopelessness due to the grief and it did color my world for a while. And we also go into denial to filter the pain, the shock aspect is the bodies way of easing us into the reality of loss, this happens subconsciously. Perhaps gaining understanding that grief is our natural way of dealing with the death of those we love, and that honoring and respecting the process we are wired for—meaning it is okay to be angry, it is okay to cry, to be sad, and to be down is to be expected and It takes what it takes to heal, and that ones best might be getting through each day at first, and that extending compassion and kindness and patience to oneself is all one can do and in time it will get easier—grief has its own innate wisdom. 
 

If this is what you mean by changing my perspective, then yes, I see what you mean. Yet, it didn’t change the reality of the loss, or the experience of grief or that I had a lot of bad days that I thought would never end, it was more of “look this sucks and is gonna suck for a long time, but you will have to push yourself through, therapy will help validate and remind you that in time you will feel better, blah, blah...” 

For me, Life at times is going to suck, I do what I  can to self soothe or  just cope with it. 
For me, I go for a run, my body releases endorphins and puts me in a better place for a few hours, and I make sure to have a strong support system, mine is going to therapy. And with anything you experience shytty enough you get better at pushing through, :P

 


 

 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

It is all just a story but the context of the story is that  adam and eve were newly created beings.

They were like little children. It was planned that the y would spend millennia in the garden, gradually maturing, learning, and evolving wisdom, and would eventually have been given access to the fruit of knowldge of good and evil.

  With that, and immortality, in the story they would have evolved into gods themselves, and become like their "father"/creator

But, like little children, they had rules, and they knew the rules should be obeyed. They  even knew specifically the consequences of breaking the rules.

BUT in the story the y believed the serpents story over that  of their creator.  It was THIS which was the original sin, and which separated them from an intimate connection with their god  Of course, given the state of humanity at the time of writing, the writers HAD to give an explanation for how god's wonderful creations could have come to the condition of the day.

This story provides an explanation for the fall of mankind, from one of grace and perfection, to how we are today. 

No one knew it was all down to our primate ancestry, and the biological drivers of those primates, combined with the  psychological constructs we  developed as self aware beings like fear, greed, envy, hate, but also love,  compassion altruism etc. 

Thus, we are driven by evolution to many destructive behaviours, yet we know we are capable of better, and we KNOW that we often choose to do harm to ourselves and others . 

No wonder we ask ourselves why this is so, and construct stories to explain it 

Do you actually think this? 

In Judaism it is taught that literal interpretation tells us more the interpreter’s POV. 
 

In your case, it sounds like you accept the born again interpretation. 
 

My question is this what is “your” personal interpretation.

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OverSword
11 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

1 John 3:8

Jesus didn’t say that. It’s attributed to the writings of John and not a quote.  That’s a common mistake people make.

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OverSword
On 11/29/2019 at 12:19 PM, Crazy Horse said:

So does anyone know why the two were tacked together?

What became the OT wasn't even correlated into the OT at the time of Jesus. much like the NT!!!

Because none of the good scary stuff you need to really control people could be attributed to the words of Jesus but the tora is jam packed full of them. That is also why a letter written to specific people during a specific time was named revelation and tacked on at the end. To scare people into obedience.

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jmccr8

Hi Mello

Not a Christian myself but I am going to step out there and say they call him god because I am already using the name Jay.:D

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Do you actually think this? 

In Judaism it is taught that literal interpretation tells us more the interpreter’s POV. 
 

In your case, it sounds like you accept the born again interpretation. 
 

My question is this what is “your” personal interpretation.

Sorry. I  dont understand your question.  I see the genesis story as a creation myth developed by men to explain the state of man kind in their time The y had to do it with a good understanding of human nature but no knowledge of science 

One cannot have a LITERAL translation without perspective or interpretation. it would be nothing but a string of words.  literal means the words.  Words are symbols filled with meaning, and meaning comes from, the writers intent and the readers understanding.

To understand the words of the old testament, a person must know and understand the minds of the people who wrote it  ; this includes their culture, beliefs, and language conventions What wrds meant to them and how the y punctuated (or did not punctuate)  a sentence.

What is a "born again" interpretation (of genesis)  as you understand it ?

IMO  genesis is a creation myth.

the next few books are a setting out of Jewish laws and the history, social values, and religious embedding of those laws, using  god as a moral enforcer of law. 

The rest of the old testament is a history of the Jewish people as recorded through their perspective.

it includes god in the history because to the Jews god was an integrated, not separate  entity  in each of their lives AND the giver and enforcer of their laws and customs 

  It tends to exaggerate Jewish successes and sing their praises, just as any national history does. Because  it was  originally orally formed and based, it is not as accurate or precise as modern histories, but a lot of it has been proven accurate by modern archaeology

Then there are the bits of beauty like the psalms; and the morality tales to educate the young, and to warn all, of  the consequences of spiritual, moral, and physical dangers etc  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry. I  dont understand your question.  I see the genesis story as a creation myth developed by men to explain the state of man kind in their time The y had to do it with a good understanding of human nature but no knowledge of science 

One cannot have a LITERAL translation without perspective or interpretation. it would be nothing but a string of words.  literal means the words.  Words are symbols filled with meaning, and meaning comes from, the writers intent and the readers understanding.

To understand the words of the old testament, a person must know and understand the minds of the people who wrote it  ; this includes their culture, beliefs, and language conventions What wrds meant to them and how the y punctuated (or did not punctuate)  a sentence.

What is a "born again" interpretation (of genesis)  as you understand it ?

IMO  genesis is a creation myth.

the next few books are a setting out of Jewish laws and the history, social values, and religious embedding of those laws, using  god as a moral enforcer of law. 

The rest of the old testament is a history of the Jewish people as recorded through their perspective.

it includes god in the history because to the Jews god was an integrated, not separate  entity  in each of their lives AND the giver and enforcer of their laws and customs 

  It tends to exaggerate Jewish successes and sing their praises, just as any national history does. Because  it was  originally orally formed and based, it is not as accurate or precise as modern histories, but a lot of it has been proven accurate by modern archaeology

Then there are the bits of beauty like the psalms; and the morality tales to educate the young, and to warn all, of  the consequences of spiritual, moral, and physical dangers etc  

I have the greatest respect for Judaism and have read the scholarly and academic posits on Genesis the OT, I have friends that are Jewish and I direct my questions to them.

 

I am simply asking you what is your own personal interpretation of Genesis from your spiritual viewpoint.

I am actually interested in your thoughts, how you see it and what you glean from it in the way of wisdom or otherwise. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Alchopwn
10 hours ago, OverSword said:

Jesus didn’t say that. It’s attributed to the writings of John and not a quote.  That’s a common mistake people make.

So what you are suggesting then is that God is malevolent and supports evil, and that is why Jesus lost?

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ThereWeAreThen
2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

So what you are suggesting then is that God is malevolent and supports evil, and that is why Jesus lost?

Makes sense to me.:whistle:

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Will Due
7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

So what you are suggesting then is that God is malevolent and supports evil, and that is why Jesus lost?

 

1 John 3:8, KJV: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

 

 

Sin is deliberately and knowingly doing the wrong thing. Evil is doing the wrong thing by mistake. The devil led the way in many living their lives in doing whatever they want. From a place of authority what the devil did, was to suggest that God doesn't exist and that not doing God's will, bears no consequences.

Jesus is defeating that suggestion.

He's doing it by leading those who are interested in co-operation, towards the doing of God's will. He's doing it by the way he lived his life while here on earth. Those who do the same thing as a public service, are destroying the devil. 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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danydandan
On 11/30/2019 at 11:56 AM, Crazy Horse said:

Through personal experience.

And Because it makes everything go better, with less suffering etc.

Why wouldn't you do this?

That's a white wash answer. I was hoping for something more in-depth.

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Sherapy
3 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

1 John 3:8, KJV: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

 

 

Sin is deliberately and knowingly doing the wrong thing. Evil is doing the wrong thing by mistake. The devil led the way in many living their lives in doing whatever they want. From a place of authority what the devil did, was to suggest that God doesn't exist and that not doing God's will, bears no consequences.

Jesus is defeating that suggestion.

He's doing it by leading those who are interested in co-operation, towards the doing of God's will. He's doing it by the way he lived his life while here on earth. Those who do the same thing as a public service, are destroying the devil. 

 

 

Interesting that the devil suggested god doesn’t exist and that not doing gods will bears no consequence, and is a “sin!”
 

I see no evidence of free will, I do see evidence of controlling through fear mongering though.:D

How do you respond, Will?

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Will Due
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I see no evidence of free will

 

What the hell? :lol:

You're kidding right?

Didn't you just use your free will to post just now? What evidence is that? Lol.

Come on Sheri. :D

 

 

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Will Due

 

One more thing.

 

11 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I see no evidence of free will

 

Which is the evidence that because of your free will, you can "see" whatever you like. 

Isn't it wonderful? :lol:

 

 

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Guyver
On 11/26/2019 at 12:35 PM, Mello_ said:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus, circa 250 BC

I want to hear Christians about this quote.

I’m not a Christian now, but I was the first time I heard this quote.  On the surface, it sounds so logical and irrefutable.  Yet, the first comment I would make is define evil.  As I see it, evil is the actions that people do in harming themselves, others, or the planet.  Christians believe that evil is personified in supernatural beings like Satan and the fallen angels.  I do not believe in the existence of those beings, so I bring it back to the actions of people.  

Evil is done in this world because people do it.  So, “Gods crime” is creating a world where people have the freedom to act as they please.  I think people would consider it unfair for beings of our kind to exist without the freedom of independent thought and action.

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Guyver
On 11/26/2019 at 12:45 PM, XenoFish said:

God is an idea. 

Or not.  So, since you have no clue if God exists or not, you are just stating your opinion...but you state it as if it is factual.

You failed to address the OP while stating your opinion also...so it’s like you just troll around looking to shoot down other people’s beliefs and questions as if your some kind of atheist shot sherif.  I think it would be better if you keep your own opinions to yourself in topics like this.  You have nothing to offer.

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Sherapy
33 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

What the hell? :lol:

You're kidding right?

Didn't you just use your free will to post just now? What evidence is that? Lol.

Come on Sheri. :D

 

 

Will, we are exploring your post, where you claim that not to follow god has consequences and not doing so is a sin.

What you just attempted was create a straw man that means trying to divert the topic away from your claim, this is a manipulation tactic. 

I am simply asking you to point out the free will in your claim. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Will Due
31 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I do see evidence of controlling through fear mongering though.:D

 

Nothing causes more fear mongering than when someone in spiritual authority suggests that God doesn't exist and implies a person can do whatever they want. 

Nothing.

 

 

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Guyver
On 11/27/2019 at 3:39 AM, XenoFish said:

I normally would tear a thread like this to shreds, but I don't feel the urge to argue over fairy tales. 

Then you should just be quiet, or find a new hobby....or both.

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Will Due
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Will, we are exploring your post, where you claim that not to follow god has consequences and not doing so is a sin.

What you just attempted was create a straw man that means trying to divert the topic away from your claim, this is a manipulation tactic. 

I am asking you to point out the free will in your claim. 

 

Doing deliberately and knowingly something wrong, is always a free will act.

Which bear consequences. 

 

 

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Sherapy
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Nothing causes more fear mongering than when someone in spiritual authority suggests that God doesn't exist and implies a person can do whatever they want. 

Nothing.

 

 

Will, stay focused where is the free will in your claim? 
 

You're rationalizing, not addressing your claim. 
 


 

 

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Sherapy
4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Doing deliberately and knowingly something wrong, is always a free will act.

Which bear consequences. 

 

 

Will, it wouldn’t matter if you had free will, the choice to follow god would be free of consequences if the choice was truly free. 
Hence what the devil is pointing out. :P
 

Edited by Sherapy
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