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Why call him a God?

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Guyver
2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Then I don't think you should be offended. Im not being dismissive, I genuinely find it incredible that people maintain such beliefs into adulthood.

But I thought you were a real smart thinker?  You can't understand how people can maintain spiritual beliefs until adulthood?  You must not have done much study on human populations then.

In any event.....I think what you're really saying is that your worldview is different from mine.  You have had different experiences than I have.  Well, welcome to the real world of 7 point something billion people Psyche101.  No two of us are alike.  We are all different, even identical twins.  We are all a product of our genes and our environment; and our environment affects each of us differently.  Everybody knows this.  It doesn't mean "your reality" is any more valid or true than mine.  They are the same.  Yet, they are different. 

You have never had any experience with any thing that cannot be explained by the rational world of current scientific understanding.  You have never had any truly meaningful spiritual experiences, or experienced any supernatural events. 

But I have.

So, for me to deny this would be false, and for you to accept what I say would violate your vested interest.  You are just as cognitively biased as I am; the only difference is that I am honest about what makes me different from you.  I understand this world in which we live as well as anyone - as far as I can tell.  I know that on the fourth of July on this year, only four days after one of my best friends died, I finally accomplished a goal I had worked for three years to accomplish.

I finally broke 80 in golf.  I was such a challenge for me.  I worked so hard to accomplish this goal, and for three years it was just out of my reach.  Then, one day it happened.  Everything was working and my putter was hot.  I shot a 78.  How do I know that I shot a 78, even though I played alone that day?

The answer is that I experienced it.  That is as real as life gets.  So, things that I have experienced and know to be real, you have not experienced and do not know to be real.  

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

But I thought you were a real smart thinker?  You can't understand how people can maintain spiritual beliefs until adulthood?  You must not have done much study on human populations then.

In any event.....I think what you're really saying is that your worldview is different from mine.  You have had different experiences than I have.  Well, welcome to the real world of 7 point something billion people Psyche101.  No two of us are alike.  We are all different, even identical twins.  We are all a product of our genes and our environment; and our environment affects each of us differently.  Everybody knows this.  It doesn't mean "your reality" is any more valid or true than mine.  They are the same.  Yet, they are different. 

You have never had any experience with any thing that cannot be explained by the rational world of current scientific understanding.  You have never had any truly meaningful spiritual experiences, or experienced any supernatural events. 

But I have.

So, for me to deny this would be false, and for you to accept what I say would violate your vested interest.  You are just as cognitively biased as I am; the only difference is that I am honest about what makes me different from you.  I understand this world in which we live as well as anyone - as far as I can tell.  I know that on the fourth of July on this year, only four days after one of my best friends died, I finally accomplished a goal I had worked for three years to accomplish.

I finally broke 80 in golf.  I was such a challenge for me.  I worked so hard to accomplish this goal, and for three years it was just out of my reach.  Then, one day it happened.  Everything was working and my putter was hot.  I shot a 78.  How do I know that I shot a 78, even though I played alone that day?

The answer is that I experienced it.  That is as real as life gets.  So, things that I have experienced and know to be real, you have not experienced and do not know to be real.  

You seem to be getting the hang of dealing with disbelief. In the garden of Faith where a multitude walk, we--nevertheless--each walk alone. We each keep our own spiritual council. In that, you are not alone, ever. 

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Sherapy
2 hours ago, Guyver said:

But I thought you were a real smart thinker?  You can't understand how people can maintain spiritual beliefs until adulthood?  You must not have done much study on human populations then.

In any event.....I think what you're really saying is that your worldview is different from mine.  You have had different experiences than I have.  Well, welcome to the real world of 7 point something billion people Psyche101.  No two of us are alike.  We are all different, even identical twins.  We are all a product of our genes and our environment; and our environment affects each of us differently.  Everybody knows this.  It doesn't mean "your reality" is any more valid or true than mine.  They are the same.  Yet, they are different. 

You have never had any experience with any thing that cannot be explained by the rational world of current scientific understanding.  You have never had any truly meaningful spiritual experiences, or experienced any supernatural events. 

But I have.

So, for me to deny this would be false, and for you to accept what I say would violate your vested interest.  You are just as cognitively biased as I am; the only difference is that I am honest about what makes me different from you.  I understand this world in which we live as well as anyone - as far as I can tell.  I know that on the fourth of July on this year, only four days after one of my best friends died, I finally accomplished a goal I had worked for three years to accomplish.

I finally broke 80 in golf.  I was such a challenge for me.  I worked so hard to accomplish this goal, and for three years it was just out of my reach.  Then, one day it happened.  Everything was working and my putter was hot.  I shot a 78.  How do I know that I shot a 78, even though I played alone that day?

The answer is that I experienced it.  That is as real as life gets.  So, things that I have experienced and know to be real, you have not experienced and do not know to be real.  

When you were a Christian did you take the Bible literally, and if so can you give us a glimpse into how this worked?


 

 

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Alchopwn
16 hours ago, OverSword said:

No.  If you got that from what I said you really use your imagination to fill in what you want to hear. It’s a pretty impressive leap actually.

On the contrary, it is the only logical conclusion one can draw from you previous comment.

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psyche101
4 hours ago, Guyver said:

But I thought you were a real smart thinker? 

Basically, I'm a construction worker. I only try to understand the smart thinkers. I do some engineering these days, (I actually get paid more than our engineers) but I'm hardly a trained academic.

Quote

You can't understand how people can maintain spiritual beliefs until adulthood?  You must not have done much study on human populations then.

Populations accept beliefs as a majority, that doesn't help. Meeting others like Xenofish make me realise I'm not alone in these thoughts. 

No, I can't understand how so many are so lazy as to grab hastily at the closest straw. Anyone who had a proper think about the God concept can see holes that you could drive a shopping centre through. Some seem fine to glance over the many inconsistencies, I can't, and don't know how people manage to put their all into such an obvious facade. As I said earlier, quoting populations, or the majority, is just an appeal to authority. It's not validation. If millions of people thought they were Napoleon, then it would be accepted that Napoleon's spirit manifests many. Jesus or God, is just replacing Napoleon in this instance.

Quote

In any event.....I think what you're really saying is that your worldview is different from mine.  You have had different experiences than I have.  Well, welcome to the real world of 7 point something billion people Psyche101.  No two of us are alike.  We are all different, even identical twins.  We are all a product of our genes and our environment; and our environment affects each of us differently.  Everybody knows this.  It doesn't mean "your reality" is any more valid or true than mine.  They are the same.  Yet, they are different. 

I can't agree, there is enough information to ascertain validity. Because I allow for the cutting edge of knowledge to shape my views, with all due respect, I feel that makes my "reality" more valid in this instance. 

Yes my worldview is different. I agree with that, but it doesn't affect the physics that refute an afterlife, it doesn't affect big bang models which illustrates a natural universe. These known facts discount myths that the species has by large embraced. We still live in the same world, we both like golf and ACDC. We also both live under the same laws of nature. That's what drives my worldview. Does that not make my reality more relevant to the daily world?

There's just no good reason to maintain religious beliefs in this day and age. We have to move with the times or get left behind.

Quote

You have never had any experience with any thing that cannot be explained by the rational world of current scientific understanding.  You have never had any truly meaningful spiritual experiences, or experienced any supernatural events. 

But I have.

Very much the opposite I guess. I've seen a lot of the worst side of the species. Everytime I've put a hand out, it's been bitten. Reality has well grounded me. I can't see anything worth believing in. Belief is more like a dirty word to me these days.

Honestly, I'd like there to be a god. I'd really like to blame all that crap on something or someone. I'd like to ask a God a few questions about this screwed up world, and why he made such a freaking mess of so much of it. Dead set, I reckon I'd want to punch god in the face if he existed. I just don't see anything worth believing in.

Quote

So, for me to deny this would be false, and for you to accept what I say would violate your vested interest.  You are just as cognitively biased as I am; the only difference is that I am honest about what makes me different from you. .

Please explain how I am not honest in my approach. You have me baffled on that one. I couldn't be much more straightforward.

 

I have no vested interest. As you can see from the above paragraph, as such, I have zero interest to protect. How I roll is 'things are what they are' and I just don't see any reason to think those old ideas still hold water, or to continue supporting them blindly.

Quote

I understand this world in which we live as well as anyone - as far as I can tell.  I know that on the fourth of July on this year, only four days after one of my best friends died, I finally accomplished a goal I had worked for three years to accomplish.

I finally broke 80 in golf.  I was such a challenge for me.  I worked so hard to accomplish this goal, and for three years it was just out of my reach.  Then, one day it happened.  Everything was working and my putter was hot.  I shot a 78.  How do I know that I shot a 78, even though I played alone that day?

The answer is that I experienced it.  That is as real as life gets.  So, things that I have experienced and know to be real, you have not experienced and do not know to be real.  

Losing a good friend us tough, I lost my lifelong friend Jeff a few years back. He was only 47. Heart attack 

But you're talking about effort. Hard work. That's the best reason to dismiss religious ideas and principles. That's how my worldview comes about. Working as hard at understanding the smartest people on the planet who devote entire lifetimes with the best equipment available to answering these questions. I wouldn't be surprised at all that you managed a PB in golf after working very hard at it for a long time. Hard work brings results. My personal efforts have eroded the beliefs pumped into my head for at least half of my life. Erasing god as a possibility wasn't what I set out to do, it was the only logical, sensible conclusion. And it's surprisingly relieving.

Edited by psyche101
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Will Due
On 12/1/2019 at 11:58 PM, Alchopwn said:

More Jesus 

 

That's the spirit. :lol: :tu:

 

 

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Will Due
3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

My personal efforts have eroded the beliefs pumped into my head for at least half of my life. 

 

But what if those beliefs pumped into your head were wrong to begin with?

In other words, what if what you were told has nothing to do with how God actually is?

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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OverSword
8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

On the contrary, it is the only logical conclusion one can draw from you previous comment.

If it’s logical you should be able to step by step explain your reasoning then. 

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Guyver
9 hours ago, Sherapy said:

When you were a Christian did you take the Bible literally, and if so can you give us a glimpse into how this worked?

 

Yes Sherapy, I did believe the Bible literally.  But, there is a lot of non-literal or figurative language in the Bible as well.  So, the way I was taught by the denominations that I attended was to choose a literal interpretation when possible, and then use the Bible to interpret the Bible by associating what seemed like similar passages.  It’s what critics (myself included) call cherry picking.  Much of the doctrines that Christians follow comes from this technique of picking and choosing which passages to follow.  There are people now in Christianity who call themselves dispensationalists, and they use this principle to apply the parts of the Bible to themselves that they wish, while dismissing other parts of the Bible as being from another dispensation.

So for example, in the OT you have the eye for an eye retribution requirement and the stoning of people for violation of religious laws (which people in the world still practice BTW) but in the New Testament those practices are no longer followed.  From the outside one would argue that “God” must have changed his mind...but dispensationalists just dismiss this as being part of the “Old Covenant” dispensation.

This is just one example among many.

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OverSword
7 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Anyone who had a proper think about the God concept can see holes that you could drive a shopping centre through.

Do you mean the organized religion biblical God, the simple concept of God or both?  Personally I don't have a problem with an intelligently designed universe and lean towards simulation.

Edited by OverSword
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Sherapy
42 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Yes Sherapy, I did believe the Bible literally.  But, there is a lot of non-literal or figurative language in the Bible as well.  So, the way I was taught by the denominations that I attended was to choose a literal interpretation when possible, and then use the Bible to interpret the Bible by associating what seemed like similar passages.  It’s what critics (myself included) call cherry picking.  Much of the doctrines that Christians follow comes from this technique of picking and choosing which passages to follow.  There are people now in Christianity who call themselves dispensationalists, and they use this principle to apply the parts of the Bible to themselves that they wish, while dismissing other parts of the Bible as being from another dispensation.

So for example, in the OT you have the eye for an eye retribution requirement and the stoning of people for violation of religious laws (which people in the world still practice BTW) but in the New Testament those practices are no longer followed.  From the outside one would argue that “God” must have changed his mind...but dispensationalists just dismiss this as being part of the “Old Covenant” dispensation.

This is just one example among many.

Hmmm, interesting. 

For example, on Genesis the garden and talking snakes, eating the apple etc. did you take this figurative or literal? 
 

Some people truly do, do you have insight on this?

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Will Due
14 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Do you mean the organized religion biblical God, the simple concept of God or both?  Personally I don't have a problem with an intelligently designed universe and lean towards simulation.

 

Life here probably is a simulation.

A simulation of how things work beyond this life where proper behavior and proper response to obligation is required. For that we're no doubt being tested.

Human nature usually gets it right I hope. 

 

 

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OverSword
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Life here probably is a simulation.

A simulation of how things work beyond this life where proper behavior and proper response to obligation is required. For that we're no doubt being tested.

Human nature usually gets it right I hope. 

 

 

I don't know about that.  I think you're supposing you are not a simulation as well, I believe we are.

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Will Due
20 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I don't know about that.  I think you're supposing you are not a simulation as well, I believe we are.

 

I'll buy it that we're a simulation. 

So long as what we're simulating, or trying to at least, is something a whole lot better than human.

I see us more as being prototypes of ourselves really.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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OverSword
3 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

I'll buy it that we're a simulation. 

So long as what we're simulating, or trying to at least, is something a whole lot better than human.

I see us more as being prototypes of ourselves really.

 

 

I think if you were going to make a simulation the idea would be something along the lines of finding out what would happen to an un-united global civilization if there was large climate change in a relatively short period of time.

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danydandan
On 12/2/2019 at 5:55 PM, Crazy Horse said:

If you want something more in-depth, then ask a more specific question.

I thought my questions were rather pointed. I stand by my statement of a white wash answer. 

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danydandan
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Do you mean the organized religion biblical God, the simple concept of God or both?  Personally I don't have a problem with an intelligently designed universe and lean towards simulation.

Why do you lean that way?

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Crazy Horse
2 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I thought my questions were rather pointed. I stand by my statement of a white wash answer. 

I have absolutely no idea with what you mean, a white wash answer.

But feel free to clarify

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danydandan
12 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I have absolutely no idea with what you mean, a white wash answer.

But feel free to clarify

I sure will.

It's a metaphor, the term white was infers to a very thin layer of paint. Used widely all over the Earth. Thus the term whitewash answer is a way of saying you are not going in-depth. The fact that you are stuck on this and not the questions asked is strange. 

 

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OverSword
24 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Why do you lean that way?

Based on the  assumption that we would simulate realities in a computer if we could so.  Assuming that been done I would guess that there would be thousands or possibly millions of simulations so the mathematical probability that we are the one real universe is slim.  There are a few other woo things that I have come across here and there that the simple explanation for them is we live in a simulated universe.  Possibly even the lack of a unifying theory is an indication that we live in a simulation that for whatever reason the laws of physics has been adjusted.  Who knows?  It's fun to think about.

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lightly

 

15 hours ago, Guyver said:

I finally broke 80 in golf.  It was such a challenge for me.  I worked so hard to accomplish this goal, and for three years it was just out of my reach.  Then, one day it happened.  

     A miracle !    :lol:

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danydandan
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

Based on the  assumption that we would simulate realities in a computer if we could so.  Assuming that been done I would guess that there would be thousands or possibly millions of simulations so the mathematical probability that we are the one real universe is slim.  There are a few other woo things that I have come across here and there that the simple explanation for them is we live in a simulated universe.  Possibly even the lack of a unifying theory is an indication that we live in a simulation that for whatever reason the laws of physics has been adjusted.  Who knows?  It's fun to think about.

Gravitational waves and our standard model is getting pretty close to a GUT. But I take your points..... I just don't think it's necessary to think that. 

I feel individuals who believe, or lean, as you do are putting to much emphasis or are anthropomorphising. 

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OverSword
11 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Gravitational waves and our standard model is getting pretty close to a GUT. But I take your points..... I just don't think it's necessary to think that. 

I feel individuals who believe, or lean, as you do are putting to much emphasis or are anthropomorphising. 

That's fine, I'm not married to it just enjoy playing with it in my head.

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Hammerclaw

It's amazing how people who are so ready to dispense with fantastical impossible things, eagerly adopt and cherish a whole new portfolio of equally impossible things. If this is a simulation, then everything in the Bible, every miracle, every resurrection could be true, with God the grand maestro of the simulation. That puts us back at square one.

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danydandan
24 minutes ago, OverSword said:

That's fine, I'm not married to it just enjoy playing with it in my head.

It's a good thought experiment.

But if you lean towards simulation then what's so outlandish about a God, or miracles or something like ghosts? I think believing in one and not the other is contradictory. 

Edit: @Hammerclaw beat me to it. 

Fools seldom differ eh?

Edited by danydandan

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