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Relam

"America is the enemy"

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Relam

Yeah clickbait.

My question is:

Why so many people and european countries (esspecialy african countries and middle eastern)have conspiracies that America is guilty for example: their national problems,wars, destruction of their country? I want some objective and realistic answer that is not writen through some political ideology lenses.Many European countries are anti american example is Serbia they think that America is the main offender for all of their problems they think that Slobodan Milosevic was American spy,and America stoled from them Kosovo. Yugoslavs think Americans destroyed their country,Middle easterns say America is attacking them?

I almost believed in that conspiracy then i saw some podcasts from US soldiers who gave me very real perception of things and they show me how our reality is disorted by comfortable couch in freedom so we come up with that people who create order out of chaos (America) are the evil ones.

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and then

They're free to hate whoever they want to.  America's time is passing.  Let's see how they like China's plans for them ;) 

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openozy

Coming from Oz,I've never felt America was an enemy,but the ones that come over here are loudmouths and annoying.If they toned it down a bit they would be cool as.

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and then
7 minutes ago, openozy said:

Coming from Oz,I've never felt America was an enemy,but the ones that come over here are loudmouths and annoying.If they toned it down a bit they would be cool as.

I can't fault you there.  I'm sure a lot of us do tend toward arrogance when abroad.  I can only speak for myself.  THe only way I'd be less than civil when visiting any other country would be if the natives were ugly to me first.  I've only been abroad 3 times.  In China I felt like an odd new species of insect life by the way people looked at me.  In Rome, the customs people looked at me like a criminal and in Moscow they acted like I didn't exist, one way or another ;)   I liked Russia the best, frankly.

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openozy
9 minutes ago, and then said:

I can't fault you there.  I'm sure a lot of us do tend toward arrogance when abroad.  I can only speak for myself.  THe only way I'd be less than civil when visiting any other country would be if the natives were ugly to me first.  I've only been abroad 3 times.  In China I felt like an odd new species of insect life by the way people looked at me.  In Rome, the customs people looked at me like a criminal and in Moscow they acted like I didn't exist, one way or another ;)   I liked Russia the best, frankly.

To be honest the American tourists of late have been ok,probably because we've caught up in the loud,no it all comp,instead of being a bunch of dumb ---,backward hillbillies lol.Well,somewhat.

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Bed of chaos

Well, I would differentiate between the government and its citizens. In my opinion americans are very divided on certain issues (take a look in UM's political forum). In regards to travelling abroad, I tred light with politics and simply act polite (or humble) to others. I personally dont have many rules except never be the loudest one in the room.

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third_eye

It's not an American problem so much as it is an entirely American problem with problematic politics ...

~

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3 hours ago, third_eye said:

It's not an American problem so much as it is an entirely American problem with problematic politics ...

~

Whatever that means... if you're insinuating one political group is more apt to be rude than another then you aren't very insightful, eh?  Rude people are rude people regardless what their political affiliation might be.

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DieChecker
10 hours ago, Relam said:

Yeah clickbait.

My question is:

Why so many people and european countries (esspecialy african countries and middle eastern)have conspiracies that America is guilty for example: their national problems,wars, destruction of their country? I want some objective and realistic answer that is not writen through some political ideology lenses.Many European countries are anti american example is Serbia they think that America is the main offender for all of their problems they think that Slobodan Milosevic was American spy,and America stoled from them Kosovo. Yugoslavs think Americans destroyed their country,Middle easterns say America is attacking them?

I almost believed in that conspiracy then i saw some podcasts from US soldiers who gave me very real perception of things and they show me how our reality is disorted by comfortable couch in freedom so we come up with that people who create order out of chaos (America) are the evil ones.

The easiest way to unite people behind a leader is to create a common enemy. The US often fills that role as the Boogyman.

Also most nations have their own news channels, in their own languages, and with that nation having editorial rights over what airs... so....

People believe what they are told, in the main.

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third_eye
1 hour ago, and then said:

Whatever that means... if you're insinuating one political group is more apt to be rude than another then you aren't very insightful, eh?  Rude people are rude people regardless what their political affiliation might be.

Rude and arrogant, as you've shown and proven on so many an occasion, you're the incarnate of that, the now proverbial, "ugly" American... 

~

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Abaddonire
On 11/27/2019 at 9:13 PM, Relam said:

Yeah clickbait.

My question is:

Why so many people and european countries (esspecialy african countries and middle eastern)have conspiracies that America is guilty for example: their national problems,wars, destruction of their country? I want some objective and realistic answer that is not writen through some political ideology lenses.Many European countries are anti american example is Serbia they think that America is the main offender for all of their problems they think that Slobodan Milosevic was American spy,and America stoled from them Kosovo. Yugoslavs think Americans destroyed their country,Middle easterns say America is attacking them?

I almost believed in that conspiracy then i saw some podcasts from US soldiers who gave me very real perception of things and they show me how our reality is disorted by comfortable couch in freedom so we come up with that people who create order out of chaos (America) are the evil ones.

This is such a mess. African countries are African. Middle Eastern countries are Middle Eastern. Neither are European. No idea why you might think they are.

Europeans, by and large, do not blame their problems on the US, because we are not stupid.

The former Yugoslavia would blame their woes on anything but themselves. But the reality is that it is all self inflicted and that is a bitter pill to swallow. So, they blame anything and everything else. Because they cannot accept what they each did to their own fellows. Denial is a powerful motivator. Slobadan is a war criminal. The US is irrelevant to that. Kosovo was a failure of the west to intervene in time to prevent the atrocities, largely propelled by hand-wringing idiots like you who prefered not to intervene and simply watch people die.

Middle Eastern nations always claim the US as "the great satan". It isn't. A self interested state? Of course. 

It so happens that I personally know a Kosovan refugee from that time of insanity. He walked home only to find that family home in flames. He walked all the way to Germany with no more than the clothes on his back. To this day he has no clue what became of his family.

I also know a veteran of the Iran-Iraq war (conscripted). He was caught in an ambush and got shot up. He was left for dead. Crawled back to friendly territory, got all healed up minus an eye and various chunks of flesh that had been shot off. And then got thrown back into circulation as an able bodied soldier. So he deserted, set up home in Denmark eventually. (that's part of Europe, for your information). He is a dead man if he ever returns home.

Not a bit of this is the doing of the USA.

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Bed of chaos
On 11/28/2019 at 1:25 AM, and then said:

Whatever that means... if you're insinuating one political group is more apt to be rude than another then you aren't very insightful, eh?  Rude people are rude people regardless what their political affiliation might be.

People are rude everywhere. Perhaps this story is irrevelent . When I was getting back injections (about every 2 months) I was literally laying on operating table (on stomach) and doctor (administering injections) asked me right before shots  'what do you think of trump?' No joke! It's like, why dont you tell me which candidate u personally support. (I never said anything prior to him or staff about politics) So I can agree..before you stick me four effing times in lower back (around nerves). Anyway,  I switched to another clinic where I do get knocked out before procedure.

Edited by Bed of chaos
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Trelane

The American political apparatus that has existed since the early 1900's has progressively sought control over areas and their resources. So over the decades through diplomatic, military and clandestine means it has exuded its cumulative power to further its own agenda. This does not necessarily coincide with what the average American feels is just or right. Truth be told, the average American has no idea what entities of the U.S political system have done over the years. Not saying its wrong, not saying its right. It is what it is. It has been this way for ages, it's just the U.S. currently doing it.

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Abaddonire
44 minutes ago, Bed of chaos said:

People are rude everywhere. Perhaps this story is irrevelent . When I was getting back injections (about every 2 months) I was literally laying on operating table (on stomach) and doctor (administering injections) asked me right before shots  'what do you think of trump?' No joke! It's like, why dont you tell me which candidate u personally support. (I never said anything prior to him or staff about politics) So I can agree..before you stick me four effing times in lower back (around nerves). Anyway,  I switched to another clinic where I do get knocked out before procedure.

Good move. From experience, the last thing one wants in the middle of a medical procedure is a political discussion.

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and then
On 11/28/2019 at 2:16 AM, third_eye said:

Rude and arrogant, as you've shown and proven on so many an occasion, you're the incarnate of that, the now proverbial, "ugly" American... 

~

Only with people I feel have no right to expect good manners.  You've always given more than you've received at my keyboard.  If I said what I really thought of you I'd be banned and you aren't worthy of that kind of sacrifice.  As to enemies, they can go ^&*(*$  themselves for all I care.  You included Melee Maylay...

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6 hours ago, Trelane said:

Truth be told, the average American has no idea what entities of the U.S political system have done over the years. Not saying its wrong, not saying its right. It is what it is. It has been this way for ages, it's just the U.S. currently doing it.

I agree but I also think that description of the relationship between leaders and those being led is the same in most countries.  

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Manwon Lender
8 hours ago, Abaddonire said:

This is such a mess. African countries are African. Middle Eastern countries are Middle Eastern. Neither are European. No idea why you might think they are.

Europeans, by and large, do not blame their problems on the US, because we are not stupid.

The former Yugoslavia would blame their woes on anything but themselves. But the reality is that it is all self inflicted and that is a bitter pill to swallow. So, they blame anything and everything else. Because they cannot accept what they each did to their own fellows. Denial is a powerful motivator. Slobadan is a war criminal. The US is irrelevant to that. Kosovo was a failure of the west to intervene in time to prevent the atrocities, largely propelled by hand-wringing idiots like you who prefered not to intervene and simply watch people die.

Middle Eastern nations always claim the US as "the great satan". It isn't. A self interested state? Of course. 

It so happens that I personally know a Kosovan refugee from that time of insanity. He walked home only to find that family home in flames. He walked all the way to Germany with no more than the clothes on his back. To this day he has no clue what became of his family.

I also know a veteran of the Iran-Iraq war (conscripted). He was caught in an ambush and got shot up. He was left for dead. Crawled back to friendly territory, got all healed up minus an eye and various chunks of flesh that had been shot off. And then got thrown back into circulation as an able bodied soldier. So he deserted, set up home in Denmark eventually. (that's part of Europe, for your information). He is a dead man if he ever returns home.

 

 

Somebody is feeding you line of bull, if a US Soldier was so shot up as you put that he lost an eye, they would not have placed him back on Active Duty. He would have been given Military retirement and sent home, the US doesn't have one eyed soldiers running around. As far as the soldier deserting, why would he when they were going to send him home, as far as being a dead man if he returns home that is just more nonsense. 

Be careful telling stories like this they will make your nose grow.

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Manwon Lender
On 11/28/2019 at 6:13 AM, Relam said:

Yeah clickbait.

My question is:

Why so many people and european countries (esspecialy african countries and middle eastern)have conspiracies that America is guilty for example: their national problems,wars, destruction of their country? I want some objective and realistic answer that is not writen through some political ideology lenses.Many European countries are anti american example is Serbia they think that America is the main offender for all of their problems they think that Slobodan Milosevic was American spy,and America stoled from them Kosovo. Yugoslavs think Americans destroyed their country,Middle easterns say America is attacking them?

I almost believed in that conspiracy then i saw some podcasts from US soldiers who gave me very real perception of things and they show me how our reality is disorted by comfortable couch in freedom so we come up with that people who create order out of chaos (America) are the evil ones.

I have spent time or lived in many countries, while was in the US military. I have seen what they call the Ugly American first hand. It seems that some Americans do openly look down on other countries and cultures, however, these people account for a small percentage of Americans at least concerning my experience. I personally found during my travels, that people I encountered abroad were basically pretty friendly so long as they received the respect they deserved. 

Yes it's a fact that people stare when Americans or any other foreigners are walking around in there country. Hell Americans do the same thing when we see foreigners walking around in the states. In my opinion in both cases above it's nothing but  curiosity and nothing more. In most cases the staring people will smile if you say hello and give a little bow. After that they will try to communicate because they will feel more comfortable, 

But I also do agree that their are always people where ever I went that did not like Americans. But to my experience they represent a small portion of the population except for the Middle East. In the Middle East there are many people who hate Americans in general and I can understand this. Many of our Governments policies have created this environment and there is nothing that can be done about it now.

Those who don't hate Americans, are afraid to be associated with them because of the retaliation of their neighbors or because of the enemies we were fighting. The bottom line is simple the US has bad habit of abandoning groups people when they are no longer any use to us. We have been doing this for many years and now we have lost the trust of many countries and groups across the globe and in my opinion it's a bad policy.

As far as America being the enemy, it recent years it certainly appears things have changed. Like I said above America is not trusted as it once was. Now everything is one sided, it's like what will we gain if we do this, not how we can help a bad situation get better. I have been on a number of UN Peace Keeping Missions over the years, but the one I will never forget was Somalia. President Clinton sent us in to support the UN because of a famine that was occurring, food and other supplies were not getting to the relief Camps where they were needed.

There were many other nations flying the UN Flag there, and eventually the supply issues were being corrected. Then President Clinton in his unltimate wisdom decided that the US Soldiers supporting the UN would track down a Somali Warlord. When this decision came down everyone was shocked, because we where not equipped for that mission, well needless to say the rest is history and we got our ass kicked. This is one of those situations where we created a great deal of hatred that wasn't really necessary, and many Americans lost their lives because of that foolishness. So yea I can see that in some cases America is viewed as the enemy.

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and then

Sergeant Cornell Houston went to my High School in Mobile, Alabama.  I graduated with his brother Ralph, who went on to a career in the Marine Corps.  Clinton's mission creep got good men killed and the blame lies solely at his doorstep.  Mogadishu wasn't worth one good soldier's life, let alone twelve.  

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Manwon Lender
14 minutes ago, and then said:

Sergeant Cornell Houston went to my High School in Mobile, Alabama.  I graduated with his brother Ralph, who went on to a career in the Marine Corps.  Clinton's mission creep got good men killed and the blame lies solely at his doorstep.  Mogadishu wasn't worth one good soldier's life, let alone twelve.  

I totally agree with your thoughts on this subject, that mission creep was one of the all time stupidest thing ever done. To my knowledge 19 US Soldiers were KIA, 73 were wounded, but like you said that place wasn't worth  a single US Casualtie.:(

JIMO

Edited by Manwon Lender

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DarkHunter
29 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

When this decision came down everyone was shocked, because we where not equipped for that mission, well needless to say the rest is history and we got our ass kicked

Hard to say America lost that battle by any stretch of the imagination, the battle definitely didnt go as planned but America definitely didnt get its ass kicked.

19 Americans were killed and 73 wounded with 200 to 500 soldiers of the Somali National Alliance killed and 500 to 812 wounded.  The guy we were after was captured and a lot of what people think happened either didnt actually happen or happened drastically different then what media portrayed, example being the Mogadishu mile where in the movie showed soldiers running out of the city where what really happened was the soldiers marching about 800 meters to a rendezvous point where the Pakistani tanks were waiting with other armored vehicles.

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Obviousman
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

Somebody is feeding you line of bull, if a US Soldier was so shot up as you put that he lost an eye, they would not have placed him back on Active Duty. He would have been given Military retirement and sent home, the US doesn't have one eyed soldiers running around. As far as the soldier deserting, why would he when they were going to send him home, as far as being a dead man if he returns home that is just more nonsense. 

I find that very strange as well. If anything, they would have to justify why they should not be involuntarily discharged (medical).

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Manwon Lender
45 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Hard to say America lost that battle by any stretch of the imagination, the battle definitely didnt go as planned but America definitely didnt get its ass kicked.

19 Americans were killed and 73 wounded with 200 to 500 soldiers of the Somali National Alliance killed and 500 to 812 wounded.  The guy we were after was captured and a lot of what people think happened either didnt actually happen or happened drastically different then what media portrayed, example being the Mogadishu mile where in the movie showed soldiers running out of the city where what really happened was the soldiers marching about 800 meters to a rendezvous point where the Pakistani tanks were waiting with other armored vehicles

I left FT. Lewis Washington in May of 1993 as part of the I-Corps contingent sent to Somalia. I was there throughout the entire conflict, however, I wasn't part of the actual battle. I was located at our Headquarters in Mogadishu along with other Corp assets. Many of the wounded were evacuated to our location because of a Field Hospital that was in our compound. The guy we were after General Aidid was never captured, however many of his top leaders were and that's what actually started the battle for Mogadishu. You are correct though US Forces did suffer 19 KIA and 73 Wounded,

The thing most Americans don't know is that we where not equipped for a combat mission and thats the reason we lost those Blackhawks. If we had Cobra Gunship or Apache Gunships we would have kicked their ass. Blackhawks are not designed for ground support, they don't have the weapons needed for that role or the tactics that Gunship pilots use. Yes you are right that we killed more of their soldiers than we lost, but we never completed the mission because we were out numbered out there on the ground about 10 or more to 1. So to say we won is fictional because the entire purpose of the mission was to capture Aidid and it didn't happen.

What the media portrayed was for the most part a bunch of bull****, and parts of the movie Blackhawk down were also not correct to my knowledge .We did come under fire from some RPGs, and some small arms st our compound  but it didn't last long and to my knowledge I don't think we suffered any casualties, however it was some good target practice and that's about It. Aidid was wounded during a firefight between his militia and forces loyal to former Aidid allies, Ali Mahdi Muhammad and Osman Ali Atto. He suffered a fatal heart attack on 1 August 1996 in Somalia.

In closing I have say the entire operation wasn't worth a single American life, if we would have stuck to the UN Mission no one would have died.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Manwon Lender
30 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

I find that very strange as well. If anything, they would have to justify why they should not be involuntarily discharged (medical).

I don't want to call anyone a lyer, but there is no way they would keep or send a one eyed soldier back into action or even keep them on active duty.

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