A Bilocating Nun

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

That they borrowed from the Vietnamese. 

I dunno man, that one goes back to the days of ol'Mao himself... maybe even back to the early days of the Korean hoe down... 

~

[+Desertrat56]

On 11/30/2019 at 4:48 PM, Amita said:

A Catholic missionary to Native Americans of Southwest territories. She never left her convent in Spain, but was seen and taught Catholicism to natives hundreds of times.

Quite a series of events that occurred in the 1620s:  https://www.traditioninaction.org/History/B_013_Agreda_1.html

This is a popular story where I grew up in New Mexico.

https://conejosparanormal.com/bi-locating_nun/

[+Desertrat56]

On 12/1/2019 at 6:47 AM, Amita said:

There are other sites and books and videos about her.  Many modern Catholics, especially the higher ups, reject her visions.

But Piney's prejudice is ignoring the testimony, then (and now) of natives seeing the Lady in Blue.  One such uncomfortable fact is that the natives approached some Catholics of that era and begged them to send a priest - they wished to be baptized etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBG32YvymEk

Another site about the Jumanos tribe that knew her:   https://mariadeagreda.webs.com/jumanos.htm

Are you kidding me?  Natives begged for a priest to baptise them?  That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.  We have history that the natives hired themselves to the conquistadores as guides and listened to their plans so that they could send word ahead and each community could be prepared.  The most famous story is Acoma where the Spaniards were stupid enough to think the natives did not learn spanish and talked about their plan to kill the Acoma residents and take the pueblo on the mesa over as the best fortified location in the area.  Of course all but two of those spaniards died in the attempt because when they got there the people drugged them during a "welcome" feast and killed them.  It took another 100 years using warrior priests to get Acoma and they never really took them, just indoctrinated them partially into the catholic religion.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Desertrat56

[Amita]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

Are you kidding me?  Natives begged for a priest to baptise them?  That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.  

Such is the tradition... Quoting from the very link you posted above:

"Before sending the friars, Father Alonzo de Benavides, Custodian of New Mexico, asked the natives why they were so eager to be baptized. They said they had been visited by a Lady in Blue who had told them to ask the fathers for help, pointing to a painting of a nun in a blue habit and saying she was dressed like that but was a beautiful young girl."

Edited December 2, 2019 by Amita

[+Desertrat56]

48 minutes ago, Amita said:

Such is the tradition... Quoting from the very link you posted above:

"Before sending the friars, Father Alonzo de Benavides, Custodian of New Mexico, asked the natives why they were so eager to be baptized. They said they had been visited by a Lady in Blue who had told them to ask the fathers for help, pointing to a painting of a nun in a blue habit and saying she was dressed like that but was a beautiful young girl."

Right, I did not say I believed it, I said it is an old story I have heard and is common in this area.  I apologize for putting you in it, as you are correct, that is part of the story.  And my reaction to that part is still the same. 

[Amita]

15 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Right, I did not say I believed it, I said it is an old story I have heard and is common in this area.  I apologize for putting you in it, as you are correct, that is part of the story.  And my reaction to that part is still the same. 

Why was the Jumano's reaction to this amazing shared vision of the Lady in Blue so unbelievable to you?  Since she appeared many times and evidently whatever teachings she gave sounded appealing to them - why not do as the Vision Lady suggested?

[+Desertrat56]

5 minutes ago, Amita said:

Why was the Jumano's reaction to this amazing shared vision of the Lady in Blue so unbelievable to you?  Since she appeared many times and evidently whatever teachings she gave sounded appealing to them - why not do as the Vision Lady suggested?

She was said to have appeared many times, but the story comes from catholic people who want to justify their existence, not from the natives.

I consider it the same as the story from the Mormons who claim Jesus was in south america teaching the Mayans.  It is a silly story to justify their religion.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Desertrat56

[toast]

The story is originated in the early 17th century. Back then, people were told our solar system is geocentric.  The story must be authentic, no doubt.

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I consider it the same as the story from the Mormons who claim Jesus was in south america teaching the Mayans.  It is a silly story to justify their religion.

First he was in North America teaching Algonquians and Siouians. They keep changing it. 

[Amita]

4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

She was said to have appeared many times, but the story comes from catholic people who want to justify their existence, not from the natives.

 It is a silly story to justify their religion.

You & others keep coming back to Catholics are bums and lying bums too.  As a Buddhist my view of the religion overall is not good.  But no anti-Catholic feelings have anything to do with the bilocation of Sor Maria.

There is a ton of testimony, mainly in Spanish, there are also hundreds of her own letters to King Philip and other Spaniards.  Until that evidence is studied more, no one here has anything resembling certainty.

The Jumanos are the better authorities, if one does not trust the story from while scholars or Catholics.  Whether they have a  good, solid oral tradition I do not know.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Amita

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, Amita said:

You & others keep coming back to Catholics are bums and lying bums too.  As a Buddhist my view of the religion overall is not good.  But no anti-Catholic feelings have anything to do with the bilocation of Sor Maria.

There is a ton of testimony, mainly in Spanish, there are also hundreds of her own letters to King Philip and other Spaniards.  Until that evidence is studied more, no one here has anything resembling certainty.

The Jumanos are the better authorities, if one does not trust the story from while scholars or Catholics.  Whether they have a  good, solid oral tradition I do not know.

I don't have anti-catholic feelings, I have what I consider a realistic viewpoint of any judaic sect, including catholocisim, which is the root of the current so-called "christian" religion, yet the protestants pretend they have nothing in common with catholics.  It is all one big ugly ball of wax as far as I am concerned.  It sounds like you are more interested in the supposed mystical powers of these nuns, not the religion, which is fine with  me. 

[ChrLzs]

On 12/2/2019 at 5:18 AM, Amita said:

Amazingly stupid remarks.  Perhaps the dozens of Jumanos who saw & talked to her many times should get the Oscars.

Amazingly rude ad hominems - and you then used exactly the same type of saying - what a hypocrite you are.

 

[+Desertrat56]

1 hour ago, Amita said:

You & others keep coming back to Catholics are bums and lying bums too.  As a Buddhist my view of the religion overall is not good.  But no anti-Catholic feelings have anything to do with the bilocation of Sor Maria.

There is a ton of testimony, mainly in Spanish, there are also hundreds of her own letters to King Philip and other Spaniards.  Until that evidence is studied more, no one here has anything resembling certainty.

The Jumanos are the better authorities, if one does not trust the story from while scholars or Catholics.  Whether they have a  good, solid oral tradition I do not know.

I am confused because you keep mentioning the "jumanos" and I know of no group by that name though it is in the link you posted.  The story talks about someone in the Apache area of New Mexico.  I found this on Wikipedia but I will investigate further as I think this whole thing, like I said before, is made up.

Quote

Scholars have generally argued that the Jumanos disappeared as a distinct people by 1750 due to infectious disease, the slave trade, and warfare, with remnants absorbed by the

Apache or Comanche, but as of 2008, self-identified Apache-

Infectious diseases that the spaniards brought when the conquitadores and priests invaded.

You really can't believe everything you read just because you want to.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Desertrat56

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Amita said:

The Jumanos are the better authorities, if one does not trust the story from while scholars or Catholics.  Whether they have a  good, solid oral tradition I do not know.

They're extinct.......

[SHaYap]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

They're extinct.......

Wiped out, evolution had nothing against them...

~

[Amita]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

They're extinct.......

But not those Blue Lady inspired Catholic natives of today, whatever tribe they belong to now.  A few or several hundred Jumano Apaches are still around and still Catholics.

http://www.cambridgeconnections.net/Article_TR_Dec08_reprint.pdf

Edited December 3, 2019 by Amita

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Amita said:

But not those Blue Lady inspired Catholic natives of today, whatever tribe they belong to now.  A few or several hundred Jumano Apaches are still around and still Catholics.

http://www.cambridgeconnections.net/Article_TR_Dec08_reprint.pdf

That is not a peered reviewed paper. Just conservative Catholic propaganda.

This woman is a "communication consultant", (whatever that is). Not a anthropologist.

Then there's some weird parts. Like the mention of mDNA. Not yDNA and the fact that there is no Jumano Apache Nation of Texas on the BIA list. Nor are they listed with NMAI and neither is a Enrique Madrid listed with NMAI. If he was legit. He'd be listed with the other Tribal Historians and Cultural Resource Officers

@Swede  Have you heard of this tribe? I can't find them. 

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Amita said:

But not those Blue Lady inspired Catholic natives of today, whatever tribe they belong to now.  A few or several hundred Jumano Apaches are still around and still Catholics.

 

Quote

Today there is a group of Apache-Jumano living in Texas that is trying to gain recognition as an official tribe. Jumano are believed to have been farmers, and buffalo hunters, known for their pottery use as well.

 

It looks like a  Pretendian tribe to me. If they had proof they'd be recognized by Smithsonian NMAI. 

http://www.softschools.com/facts/us_history/jumano_facts/2808/

 

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Amita said:

But not those Blue Lady inspired Catholic natives of today, whatever tribe they belong to now.  A few or several hundred Jumano Apaches are still around and still Catholics.

30 people who are following Enrique. That's about the standard size for a Culture Vulture group.

[jypsijemini]

Convents require nuns to relinquish their individuality (don't they all assume the name 'Mary'?) and are expected to dress the same.

How can they be sure that they're not just mistaking one nun for another?

*mic drop* Argument over.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, jypsijemini said:

How can they be sure that they're not just mistaking one nun for another?

How can we be sure it even happened when the tribe was snuffed? 

Spanish imperialistic mysticism propaganda ( or as I like to call it "crapola") . You find it all over the Southwest U.S., Central and South America and a really deranged version of it in the Philippines. 

[Amita]

8 hours ago, Piney said:

How can we be sure it even happened when the tribe was snuffed? 

Spanish imperialistic mysticism propaganda ( or as I like to call it "crapola") . You find it all over the Southwest U.S., Central and South America and a really deranged version of it in the Philippines. 

My apologies - I said I was mainly interested in the bilocation siddhi, but then I brought up Catholic Indians again.  That was my foolish mistake.

In another thread perhaps I can find a non-Catholic, non-Indian, non-white with this siddhi.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Amita

[Piney]

Just now, Amita said:

My apologies - I said I was mainly interested in the bilocation siddhi, but then I brought up Catholic Indians again.  That was my foolish mistake.

I have read second hand stories about Buddhist "travelers" from Western sources but I never actually heard a claim except when the "visitor" was connected with the people he was involved in.

And then there's the cultural and human genocide justifications that are growing among Spanish ultra-nationalists and neo-con "Mel Gibson" Catholics using this stuff against us.

Not mad at you, but it's offensive from a Traditionalist perspective. Especially one whose own family members suffered at the hands of priests at Residential Schools.

[stereologist]

On 11/30/2019 at 10:19 PM, papageorge1 said:

I have no trust in RationalWiki, Skeptics Dictionary, etc..

I have more trust in the Catholic Church.

Such as burning people at the stake? Such as rooting out heretics? Such as promoting the Crusades? Such as the Inquisition?

[stereologist]

For all of those promoting this as real, I have a simple question?

How was the bilocation verified? I have a pretty good idea from reading about this case.