What made you abandon Christianity?

[White Crane Feather]

I stepped away from Christianity after reading the Iliad and realizing that it could be a religious text much older than the Bible. I also woke up to a lot of church manipulation, sales, and cult like behavior.

 

[+Link of Hyrule]

On 12/3/2019 at 2:20 PM, psyche101 said:

Great to see you back PA. And I'm really happy for you and new directions.

All the best old friend. Hope to see more of you.

Hey mate, long time no see. I'm going well. Can't promise I'm here to stay but I'll try to visit

 

On 12/3/2019 at 2:35 PM, Sherapy said:

Robbie!!

Great to see you.

How are you?

What is your path these days?
 

Sheri!!!!! So much has happened I don't know where to begin. It's been a busy couple of years. Glad you're still pushing through strong. 

On 12/3/2019 at 3:27 PM, jypsijemini said:

Such powerful statements, thank you so much for sharing, P A!

Your description of feeling broken and being attracted by the Christian idea of brokenness is so profound! My jaw dropped when I read that.....

 

 

....While my faith teetered on the fence, I was incredibly angry with God for expecting my parents to choose Him over their own children. They quoted bible verses to rationalise their decision......

.......All that said, I love and respect what my parents and my brother are trying to achieve. While I struggle with their theologies, I see an immense amount of love, compassion and good-will in their lives.

Thanks Jemini. It sounds like you understand where I'm coming from. Though based on my reading of your posts so far you grew up in a more fundamentalist version of Christianity than I experienced. A lot of your "problems" with Christianity aren't problems in my old Christian theology. But either way, we're here now. Thanks for sharing.

I really appreciated what you wrote about your parents and brother, too. It's easy to overlook that for some people there is a lot of joy and love as a result of their religion. When I share my deconversion story I have no doubt that not all Christians have had the same experience and their reasons for converting had nothing to do with self esteem or self worth. There are many who, like you say, live with love, compassion and goodwill in their lives.

~ Regards, PA

[Phaeton80]

On 12/2/2019 at 3:06 AM, jypsijemini said:

I couldn't agree with you more!!!

Precisely what I think too!

Sadly, the nature of the particular 'animal' needs fear to abide by certain rules.

In contrary to what we'd all like to think or suppose, we are all - for all intents and purposes - (self serving, unwise) children.. And most children need to be offered a grave penalty to not misbehave.

That doesnt mean that penalty will actually ensue. Thats my take on it anyway, partly based on personal experiences.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Phaeton80

[+Desertrat56]

50 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Sadly, the nature of the particular 'animal' needs fear to abide by certain rules.

In contrary to what we'd all like to think or suppose, we are all - for all intents and purposes - (self serving, unwise) children.. And most children need to be offered a grave penalty to not misbehave.

That doesnt mean that penalty will actually ensue. Thats my take on it anyway, partly based on personal experiences.

My personal experience is that children behave better when the environment is calm and loving.  They do not need threat of dire penalties to behave.  When children need that either they are suffering or the adults have unreasonable expectations.

There is a thing called negative reinforcement that actually teaches children to misbehave.  Usually parents are stressed and don't even realize they are enforcing negative behavior by deciding the child is bad instead of figuring out what the child needs.

[+DieChecker]

On 12/2/2019 at 5:07 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

As far as I'm concerned, ANY religion is on the same level as those primitives gathered around the witch doctors hut, watching him throw the bones to predict the future. I have no use for it, although your mileage may vary.

Meh, I dont think people are any less primitive to reject religion. Most just cling onto something else. Politics, or Environmentalism, or their job.... as examples.

I've seen many intelligent people who are religious and many who are not. I dont think it necessarily has to do with ignorance, or lack of intelligence. It has more to do with the immediate society the person lives in, IMHO.

[+Sherapy]

10 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

My personal experience is that children behave better when the environment is calm and loving.  They do not need threat of dire penalties to behave.  When children need that either they are suffering or the adults have unreasonable expectations.

There is a thing called negative reinforcement that actually teaches children to misbehave.  Usually parents are stressed and don't even realize they are enforcing negative behavior by deciding the child is bad instead of figuring out what the child needs.

[psyche101]

12 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

Hey mate, long time no see. I'm going well. Can't promise I'm here to stay but I'll try to visit

~ Regards, PA

Cheers my friend, just good to see you. You come up in discussion alot, we miss you bud. It would be great to see more of you but I'll take what we can get  You always brought a lot to discussion. 

Glad to hear your doing well. 

[Phaeton80]

11 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

My personal experience is that children behave better when the environment is calm and loving.  They do not need threat of dire penalties to behave.  When children need that either they are suffering or the adults have unreasonable expectations.

There is a thing called negative reinforcement that actually teaches children to misbehave.  Usually parents are stressed and don't even realize they are enforcing negative behavior by deciding the child is bad instead of figuring out what the child needs.

Yes, well on a global level, the environment is not always 'calm & loving' (understatement). Im not talking about literal children being raised in a sub- urban neighbourhood by well off, loving parents.

Im talking about the human race, trying to get by in an increasingly toxic, lacking environment.. a situation we have created by our greed and service to self mindset.

Some sources:

https://www.livescience.com/21198-hell-belief-crime-rates.html

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0039048

 

[+DieChecker]

On 12/2/2019 at 7:08 PM, Paranoid Android said:

Obviously "the most important relationship you can have is with yourself" is a very different message to "the most important relationship you can have is with Jesus". But in order to beat my depression I made a conscious statement - "I am perfect just the way I am". Also contradictory to Christianity. When that happened the theology of Christianity became redundant in my life and I deconverted. I don't need salvation, I am not a worthless sinner, and that attitude has changed my whole life for the better!

It is good to see you posting...

But...

I'd argue that Christianity does more then just offer Salvation. Living your life for Salvation, IMHO, is not living the life God would have for us.

I'm happy you are happy, but I think you've given up what you didnt need to. Just my opinion.

Edited December 5, 2019 by DieChecker

[+Desertrat56]

4 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Yes, well on a global level, the environment is not always 'calm & loving' (understatement). Im not talking about literal children being raised in a sub- urban neighbourhood by well off, loving parents.

Im talking about the human race, trying to get by in an increasingly toxic, lacking environment.. a situation we have created by our greed and service to self mindset.

Some sources:

https://www.livescience.com/21198-hell-belief-crime-rates.html

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0039048

 

I don't change my opinion or comment just because you have links.  If you go to a very poor village in africa you can see children playing happily (not talking about soldiers invading).  You are confusing the two things and I was answering the statement someone made about children "needing threat of violence" in order to behave, not the world issues you are citing.  Read the post I was responding to.  (I think it might have been Habitat).

[cormac mac airt]

On 12/2/2019 at 9:08 PM, Paranoid Android said:

I was a regular church-going Christian for over fifteen years from the age of 19-37 (I turned 40 last week, so just a few years since my deconversion). Any of the older members on here will tell you that I used to be one of the strongest defenders of the Christian faith here on UM. What led me to deconvert was a long, LONG story. Ultimately it boils down to what was best for my mental health. I had a lot of self esteem issues (have had them since childhood, a result of childhood bullying), so when I heard about Christianity, I felt "broken" and so the message that I was broken echoed with me. That is the core of Christianity - you can't get to God yourself because you're a worthless sinner, but Jesus died for you so you don't have to be perfect. But I was also in a bad headspace for years, living with depression behind the scenes. One of my therapists once gave me an article to read and in it the author of the article was discussing Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (Link), and wrote that "the most important relationship you can have is with yourself".

Obviously "the most important relationship you can have is with yourself" is a very different message to "the most important relationship you can have is with Jesus". But in order to beat my depression I made a conscious statement - "I am perfect just the way I am". Also contradictory to Christianity. When that happened the theology of Christianity became redundant in my life and I deconverted. I don't need salvation, I am not a worthless sinner, and that attitude has changed my whole life for the better!

Thanks for the question,

~ Regards, PA 

Glad to see you again PA. All the best to you. 
 

cormac

[Jodie.Lynne]

On 12/5/2019 at 4:24 AM, DieChecker said:

I've seen many intelligent people who are religious and many who are not.

I never said that believers were unintelligent.

However, ignorance, and the fallacy of personal incredulity ARE major factors, in my opinion.

[psyche101]

1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I never said that believers were unintelligent.

However, ignorance, and the fallacy of personal incredulity ARE major factors, in my opinion.

Most believers are deliberately ignorant in order to maintain faith 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Most believers are deliberately ignorant in order to maintain faith 

Oh, not ignorant, Psyche, just open to the possibility of a reality greater than the one unbelievers so supinely embrace. They consider unbelievers close-minded and inflexible, parroting the wisdom and knowledge of their betters without any real grasp of it themselves. To them, unbelievers wrap themselves in robes of secular piety, wreaking of the odor of scientific sanctity, looking down their noses at anyone who might disagree. 

[Piney]

On 12/4/2019 at 6:38 PM, Desertrat56 said:

My personal experience is that children behave better when the environment is calm and loving.  They do not need threat of dire penalties to behave.  When children need that either they are suffering or the adults have unreasonable expectations.

There is a thing called negative reinforcement that actually teaches children to misbehave.  Usually parents are stressed and don't even realize they are enforcing negative behavior by deciding the child is bad instead of figuring out what the child needs.

A true Native attitude. Like I said in previous posts. I've never used threats or shown anger to my children. Sometimes disappointment. But never anger.

[XenoFish]

6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Most believers are deliberately ignorant in order to maintain faith 

They may have an emotional need that can only be met by belief. I consider it a form of over-optimism. 

[psyche101]

6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, not ignorant, Psyche, just open to the possibility of a reality greater than the one unbelievers so supinely embrace. They consider unbelievers close-minded and inflexible, parroting the wisdom and knowledge of their betters without any real grasp of it themselves. To them, unbelievers wrap themselves in robes of secular piety, wreaking of the odor of scientific sanctity, looking down their noses at anyone who might disagree. 

I find the rational a minority. There's many posters I could name who have outright deliberately ignored information, continued to champion racist rubbish and insist facts are wrong over their chosen faith. I've seen claims of Satan association with Saturn to other ridiculous incorrect astronomical assertions to creationism to quantum woo. All deliberate ignorance.

It's crazy out there.....

Edited December 10, 2019 by psyche101

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

They may have an emotional need that can only be met by belief. I consider it a form of over-optimism. 

Hell of a lot of people like that then.

[+Liquid Gardens]

7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, not ignorant, Psyche, just open to the possibility of a reality greater than the one unbelievers so supinely embrace. They consider unbelievers close-minded and inflexible, parroting the wisdom and knowledge of their betters without any real grasp of it themselves. To them, unbelievers wrap themselves in robes of secular piety, wreaking of the odor of scientific sanctity, looking down their noses at anyone who might disagree. 

Thankfully 'most believers' I know do not embrace these unbeliever stereotypes.  They are usually strong and mature enough in their faith to recognize that they don't need to make evidence-free assumptions and insults about those who disagree with them in order to buttress their own belief or make themselves feel more comfortable about it.

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Hell of a lot of people like that then.

The fear and anxiety of death, the meaningless of existence. A lot of people crave "solid ground" when we're surrounded by quick sand. Even if they have to fake it. Giving themselves the illusion of meaning.

[tortugabob]

The worst thing that ever happened to Christianity was the canonization of the Old Testament.  The god of the OT is a construct of the Hebrew priests to maintain control over a primitive and fearful culture. The book of Deuteronomy is a prime example of how bad the OT can be.  Christians (particularly Fundamentalists) would be far better off taking to heart the philosophy of Jesus as opposed to the hateful, jealous God of the OT.

Edited December 10, 2019 by tortugabob

[+Hammerclaw]

4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Thankfully 'most believers' I know do not embrace these unbeliever stereotypes.  They are usually strong and mature enough in their faith to recognize that they don't need to make evidence-free assumptions and insults about those who disagree with them in order to buttress their own belief or make themselves feel more comfortable about it.

Thankfully, "most unbelievers" do not embrace the typical believer stereotypes referenced in these forums, over and over again, either. They, also, are usually strong and mature enough in the opinion they hold to not make judgmental assumptions and insults about those who hold a different opinion in order to sanctimoniously justify their disbelief and make themselves feel superior about it.

[+Liquid Gardens]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Thankfully, "most unbelievers" do not embrace the typical believer stereotypes referenced in these forums, over and over again, either.

Agreed, but 'most unbelievers' doesn't equal 'most unbelievers in these forums'.  Most unbelievers, and just people, recognize that what is considered acceptable to discuss and say in an online skepticism forum may not apply outside of it.  One could argue that this recognition is why there is a separate skepticism forum here to begin with.

As far as the unbelievers specifically here, I think they overall have a pretty decent 'grasp' of what their supposed 'betters' have discovered and argued.  That includes not just science, but the contents and history behind religious thought and the current major religions.

[+Hammerclaw]

12 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Agreed, but 'most unbelievers' doesn't equal 'most unbelievers in these forums'.  Most unbelievers, and just people, recognize that what is considered acceptable to discuss and say in an online skepticism forum may not apply outside of it.  One could argue that this recognition is why there is a separate skepticism forum here to begin with.

As far as the unbelievers specifically here, I think they overall have a pretty decent 'grasp' of what their supposed 'betters' have discovered and argued.  That includes not just science, but the contents and history behind religious thought and the current major religions.

Not if they don't understand math and most can't even come up with square roots without looking at the table in the back of the book. Accepting conclusions and understanding the process by which they are derived are not the same thing. Myself, I'm much more polite here than in public, where I feel more free to speak my mind without editorial repercussions. To me, a lot of people here, discussing the topic in question, display a shocking lack of manners. I suppose that comes with permitting people to post anonymously. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 12/1/2019 at 4:04 PM, jypsijemini said:

I was a missionary kid. I grew up in the church, I went to a Christian primary school. I was baptised both as an infant and again, by choice, as an adult. I rarely missed Sunday church services. I went to bible study nights. I led youth worship services. I read my Bible. I prayed. Fresh out of highschool, I enrolled in a year of Bible College.

After over twenty years living a deeply Christian-influenced life and trying to own my faith, it all fell apart.

 

Some major factors which shattered my faith were:

 

Creation and Perfection

What would perfection have looked like had Adam and Eve never "sinned"?

Perfection removes all need for improvement or addition. All needs are met, eradicating the existence of want. Everything is perfect. The food you eat. Nakedness. The weather. Sensations. Feelings. Language. Socialisation. Everything.

There'd be no need to create anything further. Buildings used to shelter and house, clothing to protect and warm the body, recipes to enhance the flavour of food and satisfy the differing palates, music and writing to express ourselves, languages that can express our experiences in different ways and unite groups of people. We'd all be the same. We'd all be living the same experiences. We'd have no preferences because everything would be equally perfect. We wouldn't prefer one thing over another because they're all equally satisfying.

Feeling would just be one constant, eternal state of perpetual bliss. Therefore, there'd be no true existence of emotions because everybody would be feeling the same thing, constantly. There'd be no reason to express how one feels. It wouldn't change. Everybody feels the same.

And the same for everything else. We'd all experience the same. We'd all look relatively the same - perfect, ideal bodies. We'd never have 'defects' or illnesses or diseases. It can be assumed that we'd never gain and never lose any more weight than what is 'perfect' and healthy.

Not to mention that with perfection comes immortality. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the world would have quickly over-populated with a race of perfect, eternal humans with nothing to do in life but to eat a perfect vegan diet, coexist with all the animals, have lots of sex and repeat this for infinity.

So what purpose does life have when one lives in a state of timeless perfection? What was God thinking?!

 

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

Mistakes are essential for learning. Learning is essential for knowledge. And knowledge allows us the understanding between this and that.

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, what did they know? God created everything to be perfect, and "saw that it was good". So we know that good existed, but not the opposite. The only "bad" thing that Adam and/or Eve could do would be to disobey God and eat from this one tree in the garden. The consequence, in hindsight, seems clear enough: "or you will surely die".

But Adam and Eve didn't understand the concept of death. It didn't exist. What kind of threat was this to them without any understanding about what death really meant?

And furthermore, if they didn't understand right from wrong, what could they have possibly known? Mistakes fuel learning. It's only through trial and error that the human race has been able to determine the nature of reality. A test either fails or succeeds. Consequences of attempts enlighten us. You'll only get one solution to a math problem when it's done correctly. Mistakes made in science have birthed new discoveries. Incorrect spelling and grammar can drastically alter the conveyed meaning of a sentence. Human interaction is a constant experiment. You try out an idea. It either works or it doesn't.

Were Adam, Eve and the whole of humanity really expected to live a life of monotonous, unchanging 'perfection'?

Growth and change give us a purpose and meaning for life! Our aversion to pain and negative experiences is just a strong indication that change is needed. Successes and the joy it brings us are just proof that we're doing something right.

It must be acknowledged that this system itself is sometimes flawed. Sometimes people have an aversion to positivity and love. Some delight in the pain and suffering they cause others. But it just proves that nothing is meant to be perfect. For some, this is caused by genetic defects and imbalances; for others, it's a life that's constantly lacked love and empathy.

 

The Old Testament God vs. New Testament Jesus

It's almost impossible not to admit that the God of the Old Testament bares very little resemblance to Jesus and the God described in the New Testament.

OT God is one scary, omnipotent being. He's racist. He's vengeful. He's jealous. He's brutal. He loves to be worshipped. Blood sacrifices really appeal to him. He invented stoning as a punishment for disobedience. He made thousands of rules (most of which were punishable by death). He favoured one race of people for thousands of years and allowed them to murder their neighbours for centuries as he led them to The Promised Land (they just weren't allowed to murder each other). He was sexist. He was wildly inconsistent (he didn't punish Abraham for bonking his wife's maid, but King David was in a lot of trouble when he bonked Bathsheba and made sure her husband died). He demanded child sacrifice as proof of loyalty. He flooded the entire planet, saving only eight people and a boat full of animals (don't get me started on that one). He subjected the most loyal of "his servants" to incredible suffering to win a bet He made with the Devil. He turned a woman into a pillar of salt because she turned back to see the destruction He rained down on her home town. He plagued Egypt and killed all the firstborn sons. And then all of a sudden, He went silent for a thousand years or so.

Cue Jesus. From scandalous yet humble beginnings, God's son incarnates in human form as the promised Messiah, a descendent of King David. God chooses impregnate a teenage virgin who's engaged to be wed. Luckily, she and her fiancé weren't stoned to death. Contrary to prophesies of a King arriving in all his glory to free the Jews from their enemies, he arrives as a newborn; his birthplace a stable and his first crib was a feed-trough. King indeed. The only mention of his childhood is a moment in the synagogue where he's found teaching the scholars. Fast forward to his thirties, he's grown up as a lowly carpenter and finally begins his ministry. His cousin, a crazed man who lives in the desert baptises him in a river where the spirit of the Lord rests upon him and a voice from heaven bellows, "This is my Son". For the next three years, he befriends tax collectors, fishermen and prostitutes. He heals the sick. He restores sight to the blind. He brings the dead back to life. The only people he judges and condemns are the leaders of the Jewish faith. His message is revolutionary: "Blessed are the poor, blessed are the meek, blessed are the humble - for they will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven". He speaks only of love, forgiveness, patience, kindness, goodness, mercy, graciousness, humility and loving thy neighbour. Turning the other cheek, going the extra mile. A far cry from the ways of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". He is arrested, flogged and beaten and ultimately crucified for his religious blasphemy. With his last dying breaths he utters, "Forgive them Father".

How are we to make sense of this incredible contrast between these two 'halves' of the Bible? One depicts a God of power and wrath, the other, a God of forgiveness and mercy and love. It's almost impossible to believe that they're meant to be one and the same.

 

John 3:16-18

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ¹⁷ For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. ¹⁸ Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (NIV)

The first verse is by far the most quoted verse in the entire Bible. However, the next two verses really serve to explain it and create a better understanding.

God really loves the world - after all, He gave His Son. But salvation's only meant for anyone who believes in Him: they will have eternal life. He didn't send Jesus in order to condemn us - He just wanted to save us. So whoever believes that won't be condemned! BUT anyone who doesn't believe WILL be condembed because... they don't believe in Me.

What a beautiful display of real, unconditional Love, God! All I've got to do is believe to avoid eternal condemnation! Fair enough!

Nevermind the fact that all we have to base this belief on is blind faith in a 2000-5000 year old book and personal experiences. Nevermind the people living in religiously oppressed countries who have no choice but to follow Islam or Buddhism. Nevermind the millions of people still living in the stone age in remote jungles who have no idea that other countries even exist. Nevermind the children who never live to see their third birthday. Nevermind the people who were raped as children by the leaders of their churches.

All you have to do is believe! And maybe God will have mercy on those who have never had the opportunity to know about Him. But for all the rest, no matter their circumstances, if they know about God and they choose not to believe, and although He loves us so much and didn't send Jesus to condemn us, that's the only possible consequence for rejecting Him. Eternal condemnation for your soul.

What does the Bible tell us God is?

"God is Love." "God is light." God is "compassionate; gracious; slow to anger; abounding in love and faithfulness; forgiving (of) wickedness, rebellion and sin." God is "merciful." God "is your refuge." His "love endures forever." "Compassionate." God "is my help."

You get the idea.

Does a God who puts terms and conditions on his love and compassion, grace and mercy, love and forgiveness sound like He's really all those things?

Believe in me: then you'll have my love. Believe in me: then you'll have my forgiveness. I can only be gracious and merciful if you believe that I Am God.

 

 

I'd love to hear from others who know / have known the Bible and Christianity (or a form of it) and can discuss things which troubled them and broke their faith.

 

 

Please do not berate, insult or verbally attack anyone for their opinions in this thread. You are allowed to agree to disagree. This is a harmless, educated discussion for anybody who is interested but is not a place for arguments or abuse. Keep your replies and opinions respectful and well-worded at all times. Anyone who abuses this thread and the people posting in it will be hastily reported to Admins and Moderators.

Christian Zionists and their Agenda to bring Christs second coming, and Armageddon. Along with the religious far far rights Antisemitic and WHITE NATIONALIST support. These people do not have a Christian Attitude, and they use the evangelical Christian based as their recruiting and hiding place, they are the threat hidden in plan site, all Christians need to be aware of this and their agenda which they are not.