What made you abandon Christianity?

[Doug1029]

Reading the Bible turned me intoan Agnostic.

Doug

[Jodie.Lynne]

4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

As far as the unbelievers specifically here, I think they overall have a pretty decent 'grasp' of what their supposed 'betters' have discovered and argued.  That includes not just science, but the contents and history behind religious thought and the current major religions.

Speaking as an unbeliever on these forums, I feel I have to point out that I am NOT speaking on behalf of all the unbelievers. Just myself.

Do I feel superior to believers, as some wag generally stated? Nope, I just have no use for a system of belief in the unprovable.

You may as well ask if I feel superior to folks who pour ketchup on their eggs. 

To me, it's the same: a matter of preference and comfort.

It seems that many people get a sense of security and peace of mind "knowing" that there is a celestial watchman on duty. If that belief makes their lives more bearable, then good for them.

Nor do I try to paint all believers as intolerant bigots, either on these boards or in RL. 

However, it does sadden me to hear people (here and in RL ) who cite a 2,000 year old text as the basis for their bigotry, hatred and unacceptance of others way of life.

I have said, many times, that if your religion and your faith make you a better person, then more power to you.

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Not if they don't understand math and most can't even come up with square roots without looking at the table in the back of the book. Accepting conclusions and understanding the process by which they are derived are not the same thing.

Agreed, but I think there's two issues with this.  First, your and my slightly 'deeper' understanding of something like square roots is likely considered rudimentary and ignorant by actual mathematicians, so there is something arbitrary as to what we decide is the adequate amount to know about such things.  Second, although I think it's important to understand what a square root is the need to understand how to calculate one isn't really that great, we already have a million apps that can do that.  It's going the way of butter churning.  If the world was to change so drastically that we lost the technology to calculate them, I think the least of our worries will be square roots.

4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Myself, I'm much more polite here than in public,

Kinda surprised to hear you say that, no offense but I don't think you're that polite here, which is not to claim I am either.  I'm the opposite though, I'm pretty sure for the most part I'm more polite in public than here.

4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

To me, a lot of people here, discussing the topic in question, display a shocking lack of manners.

Jesus dude, how many times do you post something to the effect of, 'buck up, cupcake', when you think someone's being too sensitive?  I'd work on practicing what you preach a bit more if manners are really a concern of yours.

[+Hammerclaw]

Like I said, I'm more polite here than in public discourse when someone attacks my Faith. So, I'm afraid, here, I'm as good as I get. 

All those apps and tables and other reference materials weren't brought down by an archangel for the untutored masses as shortcuts for understanding; other, more gifted and educated people created them.

Sensitive? More like incensed. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[+Liquid Gardens]

51 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

More like incensed. 

Are you saying you are incensed?  Or are other people getting too incensed.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Liquid Gardens

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Are you saying you are incensed?  Or are other people getting too incensed.

Me.

[psyche101]

13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The fear and anxiety of death, the meaningless of existence. A lot of people crave "solid ground" when we're surrounded by quick sand. Even if they have to fake it. Giving themselves the illusion of meaning.

That's s a heck of a lot of low self esteem. 

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That's s a heck of a lot of low self esteem. 

It has been my experience of Christianity, that the drive is to reinforce that low self-esteem. 

[psyche101]

28 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

It has been my experience of Christianity, that the drive is to reinforce that low self-esteem. 

All religions I find. The problem with radicalisation of youth for Muslim terrorism has had a notable impact and troubled people were a regular target 

[Mr Walker]

On 12/10/2019 at 4:11 PM, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, not ignorant, Psyche, just open to the possibility of a reality greater than the one unbelievers so supinely embrace. They consider unbelievers close-minded and inflexible, parroting the wisdom and knowledge of their betters without any real grasp of it themselves. To them, unbelievers wrap themselves in robes of secular piety, wreaking of the odor of scientific sanctity, looking down their noses at anyone who might disagree. 

I think psyche and yourself are both speaking of the extremes

While it is clear from  evidences  that humans  generally require faith and belief (in something even if this is themselves and/or  the future) and that (positive beliefs) promote better physical and mental health  every individual is different Belief that gods do not exist is basically the same sort of belief construct as a belief that gods do exist.

Both can only grow in a cognitive  environment where there is not enough evidence for knowledge.

  Some peole get strength and comfort and validation from their belief that gods do not exist while others gain it from their belief that they do.

  Scientifically; a positive belief ( ie in a good loving god) is better for a human being  than no belief, but no belief may be better for a person than a belief in a vindictive, judgemental  god, who might send them to a hell, for example,  even if they had done nothing to deserve that.  

Most people chose a belief (including to not believe) that makes then feel good, does them good, and hopefully, empowers and strengthens them. 

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

It has been my experience of Christianity, that the drive is to reinforce that low self-esteem. 

And yet the biggest take away message is; first, love thy self,  then love others, and god, as you love yourself   

Another, is that you have value as a human being, not based on your wealth, or position in society, but as yourself

Another is that the weakest, least powerful, and poorest of humanity, shall be the greatest, and are the most loved by god . 

Finally Christianity says that every  human has been saved from their sin (which came from their separation from  god)   by the sacrifice of Christ, and only has to accept this salvation and act upon that, using several simple steps, to gain everlasting life. 

[eight bits]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

And yet the biggest take away message is; first, love thy self,  then love others, and god, as you love yourself 

That's not in my Bible. Here's what's in Mark 12:28-34
 

Quote

One of the scribes came and heard them questioning together, and knowing that he [Jesus] had answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the greatest of all?”

Jesus answered, “The greatest is: ‘Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. The second is like this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

The scribe said to him, “Truly, teacher, you have said well that he is one, and there is none other but he; and to love him with all the heart, with all the understanding, all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from God’s Kingdom.”

Nothing about first love thy self, then something else. And you've got the something else backwards in the wrong order, too. God first, then others, and only others as yourself.

It's an interesting scene apart from Jesus directly dissenting from one of the goofier teachings of Walker. The scribe character is modeled on Paul. I don't believe that Mark is saying that a historical Paul met a historical Jesus, but rather imagining what it would have been like if they had met (and yet Paul failed to convert until afterwarrds). The scribe's praise of Jesus' reply is a smoothly paraphrased mash-up of Paul's 1 Corinthians 8:3-4 and Romans 13:9-10.

So, if not Jesus' Christianity, and not Paul's Christianity, then whose Christianity are you on about?

Edited December 11, 2019 by eight bits

[+Sherapy]

6 minutes ago, eight bits said:

That's not in my Bible. Here's what's in Mark 12:28-34
 

Nothing about first love thy self, then something else. And you've got the something else backwards in the wrong order, too. God first, then others, and only others as yourself.

It's an interesting scene apart from Jesus directly dissenting from one of the goofier teachings of Walker. The scribe character is modeled on Paul. I don't believe that Mark is saying that a historical Paul met a historical Jesus, but rather imagining what it would have been like if they had met (and yet Paul failed to convert until afterwarrds). The scribe's praise of Jesus' reply is a closely paraphrased mash-up of Paul's 1 Corinthians 8:3-4 and Romans 13:9-10.

So, if not Jesus' Christianity, and not Paul's Christianity, then whose Christianity are you on about?

Thank you for clearing that up, I too thought what the heck is he reading. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

47 minutes ago, eight bits said:

That's not in my Bible. Here's what's in Mark 12:28-34
 

Nothing about first love thy self, then something else. And you've got the something else backwards in the wrong order, too. God first, then others, and only others as yourself.

It's an interesting scene apart from Jesus directly dissenting from one of the goofier teachings of Walker. The scribe character is modeled on Paul. I don't believe that Mark is saying that a historical Paul met a historical Jesus, but rather imagining what it would have been like if they had met (and yet Paul failed to convert until afterwarrds). The scribe's praise of Jesus' reply is a closely paraphrased mash-up of Paul's 1 Corinthians 8:3-4 and Romans 13:9-10.

So, if not Jesus' Christianity, and not Paul's Christianity, then whose Christianity are you on about?

It is "in" the bible but of course you have to read and study the  WHOLE bible as a text.

And of course we know that, for a human to love others,  he/she MUST first  love themselves, ie know love from within) or else they cannot love others

. Finally there is the cumulative message of the bible, both old and new testament,  about how god loved man, and how the laws are made from  love   

plus the parables of christ which are all about love.

And the killer

We are made in the image of god in christian theology

god is love 

thus we also are love.

If you wish to parrot the catholic revisionism of the bible feel free to do so.

It is, after all, the largest christian denomination. 

Unlike some, i believe Catholics are christian, and personally/individually,  are generally sincere Christians, but after 2000 years they are no longer "biblical" Christians, whose faith is biblically based, and  who need nothing BUT the bible 

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. The second is like this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 

The bolded bit makes it perfectly clear.

If you are to love your  neighbour AS yourself, then you must FIRST love yourself.

if you hate or dislike yourself, then to treat a neighbour as yourself would  mean treating them as a hated  or disliked individual

Even if you simply do not love yourself, then you cannot possibly love a  "neighbour" as yourself. 

So all love, both for a neighbour and for god, springs from your capacity to love yourself and your love of self. 

gee even groups like the JWs get his 

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/love-yourself/

as does modern psychology 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/finding-love/201105/how-love-yourself-first

https://exploringyourmind.com/first-love-can-learn-love-others/

Ps Christ's christianity (which was actually liberal jewish theology, and similar words can be read, which were  written by liberal jews of the same period 

here are a few other verses which show how important love is 

Ephesians 5:25-33: “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, ..."

1 Corinthians 16:14: “Do everything in love."

Ephesians 4:2: “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love."

1 Peter 4:8: “Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins."

John 15:12: “My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."

1 Corinthians 13:13: “And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Romans 13:8: “Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law."

1 Corinthians 13:4-5: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs."

1 Corinthians 13:2: “If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

1 Corinthians 16:14: “Do everything in love."

Song of Solomon 8:7: “Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot wash it away. If one were to give all the wealth of his house for love, it would be utterly scorned."

Psalm 143:8: “Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I entrust my life."

Proverbs 3:3-4: “Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart. Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man."

1 John 4:16: “And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them."

 

Song of Solomon 8:6-7: “Set me as a seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm, for love is strong as death, jealousy is fierce as the grave. Its flashes are flashes of fire, the very flame of the LORD. Many waters cannot quench love, neither can floods drown it. If a man offered for love all the wealth of his house, he would be utterly despised."

Ephesians 4:2-3: “With all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Colossians 3:14: “And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity."

Edited December 11, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

26 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Thank you for clearing that up, I too thought what the heck is he reading. 

I am actually READING the bible Sherapy, not regurgitating some belief about what the bible says, based on a religious theology; or a personal hatred of the book (not 8 bits, but some posters) 

[eight bits]

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

If you wish to parrot the catholic revisionism of the bible feel free to do so.

Thanks bunches for your kind permission, but I didn't do any such thing. I quoted from Mark. Not "Catholic Mark," or "Adventist Mark" or "atheist Mark," but just plain Mark.

As in any other anthology, some parts of one book of the Bible might conflict with parts of another book. However, there are also passages of complete clarity which stand uncontradicted throughout. This is one of them, uniting all the branches of Christianity and rooting this teaching squarely in the Torah. It's a lock.

 

[Mr Walker]

9 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Thanks bunches for your kind permission, but I didn't do any such thing. I quoted from Mark. Not "Catholic Mark," or "Adventist Mark" or "atheist Mark," but just plain Mark.

As in any other anthology, some parts of one book of the Bible might conflict with parts of another book. However, there are also passages of complete clarity which stand uncontradicted throughout. This is one of them, uniting all the branches of Christianity and rooting this teaching squarely in the Torah. It's a lock.

 

Nup catholics emphasise the failings and sins of man and the penance we must pay.

It is not about love

'Generally it is more about fear and the imperfections of mankind    and how only the church can save a person  Far too often (as we can even see from  many posters here)  catholicism ends up teaching a person to hate themselves/ feel guilt etc.  rather than love the person they are 

You demonstrated a learned belief about love in the bible not what is actually written  

With a little luck my explanation  of WHY self love must precede our abilty to love god or neighbours has cleared that up.  

yep its a lock, and my bolded bit and explanation shows how the writers KNEW that to love a neighbour,  AS oneself,, one must first love self. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I am actually READING the bible Sherapy, not regurgitating some belief about what the bible says, based on a religious theology; or a personal hatred of the book (not 8 bits, but some posters) 

Sorry hun, I am going with Eighty on this. It is not personal. 

His knowledge and sense of fairness is impeccable, well versed and well meaning, 
 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

Just now, Sherapy said:

Sorry hun, I am going with Eighty on this. It is not personal. 

His knowledge and sense of fairness is impeccable and well versed. 
 

 

 

lol of course its not personal 

However he is wrong on this. 

 Even the text he quoted, when read simply and carefully, shows that we must love others  as ourselves This REQUIRES us first to love ourselves, otherwise we CANNOT love others as ourselves.

Neither can we obey the first commandment, to love god, if we do not know and understand what love is, from  personal experience 

[eight bits]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You demonstrated a learned belief about love in the bible not what is actually written  

With a little luck my explanation  of WHY self love must precede our abilty to love god or neighbours has cleared that up.  

No, Mr W. Focus.

Mark 12:28-34 is actually written in the Bible. Your explanation isn't.

Self love simply isn't first in that Bible passage. Love of others is tied to love of self, but love of others isn't first, either. Love of God is first, and that love is to be thoroughgoing and not tied to or limited in any way by attitudes about self or others.

You're making stuff up. Or else yet again, your speed reading has gotten in the way of your comprehension of what's on the page in black letters. Or maybe it's your flawless memory that's on the fritz.

[+Sherapy]

45 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

lol of course its not personal 

However he is wrong on this. 

 Even the text he quoted, when read simply and carefully, shows that we must love others  as ourselves This REQUIRES us first to love ourselves, otherwise we CANNOT love others as ourselves.

Neither can we obey the first commandment, to love god, if we do not know and understand what love is, from  personal experience 

Walls, Eighty got you on this one, of course I expect you to put up a huge fight and derail jypsi’s thread as to why you are right so this becomes all about you.....

The thread is about why those who have left Christianity and why. 

It is a thread for those who need to heal and are exploring their experiences. 
 

Try and extend compassion, everything isn’t about you or the same as it is for you,..
 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Sherapy

[jypsijemini]

The Bible tells us what love is: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." _{1 Corinthians 13:4-5}

If I use this definition and apply it to myself, in essence I am saying that when I love myself, I am patient with myself, I am kind to myself, I am not proud of myself, I do not boast about myself, I do not dishonour myself, I'm not selfish, I can't get easily angry at myself and I always forgive myself.

Some of these don't strike me as self-love. I can most certainly be proud of myself. There are times when it's healthy to boast about my achievements or good decisions. It's fine to be 'selfish' in some situations - it's a form of self-care. It's even healthy to get angry at oneself because you're keeping yourself in check and it's the emotional commitment and recognition that something was wrong that inspires us to learn and do better next time. (But I get the addition of "easily" - because constantly being angry with oneself isn't healthy.)

And you can apply the same text to God - and this time it all fits. God is said to be all of those things (I'd argue that he's pretty easily angered though, and keeps a record of wrongs ready for Judgement Day) but it can also be applied to the way the Bible calls us to love God: be patient with God, do not envy God, do not boast about your faith in God, humbly love and serve God, do not love God in order to receive for yourself, do not dishonour God, keep no record of God's wrongs and don't get easily angered with God.

Then, apply to others. Be patient, be kind, do not become jealous, be humble, encourage and uplift others, honour others, be self-less, stay calm and forgive.

In essence, all I really took from the "Love others as you love yourself" passage was, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Personally, I never got the impression that the Bible ever wanted or encouraged me to love myself. I was pretty convinced by the passages, songs and sermons that reminded me of my worthlessness and sinfulness, that loving myself was not even an equation. I was to serve others, love others (the way I'd want to be loved), serve God, love God, fear God and only He promised to love me back (except he didn't). "Give up everything and follow me" doesn't really speak of self-love - just sacrifice and obedience.

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by jypsijemini

[XenoFish]

8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

That's s a heck of a lot of low self esteem. 

How do you best hook people into a cult, you prey on their weaknesses. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

10 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Me.

I reread the thread and missed what you are incensed about, maybe it's carrying over from some other thread I haven't looked at or something.

[+joc]

8 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I reread the thread and missed what you are incensed about, maybe it's carrying over from some other thread I haven't looked at or something.

It's a psychological thing.  It's an insecurity thing.  Some people become quite incensed when others disagree with their own 'intellectualized self'.  It's a problem with boundaries thing.  Lashing out at other's because they have a different opinion is a sign of one's own insecurity and that creates boundary issues.