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jypsijemini

What made you abandon Christianity?

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Habitat
9 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I cant disagree too much that organised religion, and therefore Christianity are guilty of this stuff.

But lets not throw the baby, (the baby Jesus in this case) out with the bath-water!

All the above has nothing to do with Christ, and it certainly has nothing to do with God.

The message of Christ is a super powerful one, and its this message that is important, not the messenger, not the dogma, not the rituals, the Church or the priest class. 

Yes , a fundamental error that is well represented in the ranks here, I have yet to see any franchise agreement between any organization and God, that was signed by both parties, religion is very much a DIY activity, and that is actually what the figureheads of all the religions are telling us, but people are sucked in by the "specialists" into believing otherwise.

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Djedi
23 minutes ago, Habitat said:

The point is, that those who have put something behind them, usually don't feel the need to keep on talking about it. 

Don't agree with the 'usually'; some do, some don't IMHO. Those that won't talk about it, in my experience, are often still in the process of trying to put something behind them.

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Djedi
40 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I cant disagree too much that organised religion, and therefore Christianity are guilty of this stuff.

But lets not throw the baby, (the baby Jesus in this case) out with the bath-water!

All the above has nothing to do with Christ, and it certainly has nothing to do with God.

The message of Christ is a super powerful one, and its this message that is important, not the messenger, not the dogma, not the rituals, the Church or the priest class. 

I lost my faith in the (Catholic) Church long before I lost my faith as a Christian because of all this negative stuff. But I didn't lose my Christian faith because of it; that was mostly for different reasons. Although an atheïst now I find there are positive elements in the message of Jesus Christ as presented in the gospels, no matter if he actually existed or was fabricated. 

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Crazy Horse
3 hours ago, Habitat said:

Yes , a fundamental error that is well represented in the ranks here, I have yet to see any franchise agreement between any organization and God, that was signed by both parties, religion is very much a DIY activity, and that is actually what the figureheads of all the religions are telling us, but people are sucked in by the "specialists" into believing otherwise.

It seems to me that Christianity has become a business. (It used to be a massive political force too).

There are no doubt plenty of well intentioned priests and lay folk, but by saying Jesus was the one an only Son of God - where does that leave everyone else? Far better in my opinion, is to see Christ as a man who by his own determination became the Anointed One, much like Buddha became the Awakened One - by His own efforts.

The Gnostics were more the DIY types, much like Buddhists today, yet they came together in a mutually supportive way, after all, religion means unity.(With Self, within community, and with God).

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Crazy Horse
2 hours ago, Djedi said:

I lost my faith in the (Catholic) Church long before I lost my faith as a Christian because of all this negative stuff. But I didn't lose my Christian faith because of it; that was mostly for different reasons. Although an atheïst now I find there are positive elements in the message of Jesus Christ as presented in the gospels, no matter if he actually existed or was fabricated. 

Exactly, its the message that is important.

Whether He existed, whether He was the Son of God, whether He was born of a virgin - makes no odds to me!

I have often thought, believe in Christ, believe in God, but why would anyone have faith in an organisation like the Catholic Church?

Sure they do good work helping the poor, but so can anyone, religious or not!

Surely the main duty/purpose of any religion is to introduce you to God, a unity and realisation of your own divine nature, not all this control through guilt and fear. 

The truth is meant to set you free!

 

 

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Habitat
6 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

 

The Gnostics were more the DIY types, much like Buddhists today, yet they came together in a mutually supportive way, after all, religion means unity.(With Self, within community, and with God).

The same thought occurred to me yesterday. I often think the teaching of Latin roots would give people greater insight into many things. 

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Davros of Skaro

At age 10 I was prevented from being a Christian by reading the Bible.

Decades later with further research I see the message of Jesus as ancient curse lifting atonement magic through Hellenistic well being philosophy, and bend over backwards interpretation of OT scripture via messianic expectations. The Gospels are not history, but platforms to push theology through allegory for the Christian community it came out of, and whoever wrote Mark got the cart rolling. If Jesus existed then he is the champion of the most buried in myth messiah wannabe of the 1st century CE.

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jypsijemini
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

The same thought occurred to me yesterday. I often think the teaching of Latin roots would give people greater insight into many things. 

This is precisely what my younger brother found. He has spent the last four years at Lutheran Bible College learning ancient Greek, Hebrew and Latin in order to better understand the scriptures. His theologies have transformed from his early Baptist understanding of The Word into this direct, complete and accurate knowledge of what the ancient text were actually trying to say. Even English translations are woefully incompetent in conveying the old meaning. We just don't have enough words! Greek has at least five different words for Love, all with their own unique definition.

He's now adopted the belief in a far more gracious, merciful, forgiving and loving God. He believes that Baptist theology was somewhat "works-based" without it directly saying so (at least in our church). That a belief in Christ would have to change your life, lead you into a life of service to the Lord etc. He believes that only belief and acceptance of God is absolutely enough for salvation, and that God loves everybody regardless of how their life is led. I'm sure there's a lot more to it, I'm just breezing over the things I remember him saying from a few conversations we've had over the last couple years but I couldn't help but be overwhelmed by his conviction and passion.

My brother is incredibly intelligent. Weirdly intelligent. Genius status. When he commits himself to something, he jumps in the deep end, feet first with no hesitation. He immerses himself in it obsessively and completely. He used to shake with excitement and anticipation when he'd have a new pack of Pokemon cards to open. Now he gets that way over the things he learns in Bible College. And he's preaching a revolutionary message: love, grace, forgiveness and mercy that has no price.

I think he's going to be a key player in transforming popular Christian belief from one of unworthiness and sinfulness to this message that all are held in the grace of God. I dunno, there was just something about the way he spoke and the things he spoke about with such excitement that makes me think that even though he's a Christian and doing his work in a church, he's going to help to change people's lives and faith. He's going to teach people not only how easy it is to have a relationship with God, but how to have a healthy and loving relationship with themselves as well. It was just completely and utterly love-based and I can see it affecting his own life. He's so full of love and light.

I believe no matter which path we travel along, whether we commit ourselves to a religion, belief or even a renunciation of both - life has an infinite number of ways to show us and teach us about Love. Therefore, none of them are wrong. Sometimes even the most intense suffering and the most horrific circumstances can teach a person the importance of love - take for instance some of the Holocaust victims. They had every right to intensely and completely hate their Nazi oppressors - but some didn't. Some chose to forgive them and loved them instead - they didn't "fall in love" with them, but they loved them in a way that's better described as "God's" Love. Unconditional, irrational, soulful love. Love that accepted that they'd done unimaginably detestable things - but forgave them anyway. It's practically unfathomable and yet it happened. Many of them clung to the hate and that too is completely understandable and warranted. But somehow, some were able to forgive them and love them. (eg. Corrie Ten Boom)

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RAyMO

I grew up, I questioned, I read - I didn't believe the answers.

The answer that was most often given to questions and the one that peeved me the most was "God gave us free will" - this apparently explained everything.

well if he is so bloody smart - he should have known better - shouldn't he!

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Jodie.Lynne
11 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

The message of Christ is a super powerful one, and its this message that is important, not the messenger, not the dogma, not the rituals, the Church or the priest class. 

I understand that you have a strong faith in the message of Christ, and that it has meaning and value to you, so please realize I am not attacking your belief.

However, we have nothing to verify that what has been attributed to Jesus, was actually said by him.

In Aesop's Fables, we can gain many insights to human nature, however, I don't think anyone actually believes the 'facts' of those fables (i.e. : the fox having dinner with the crane ). Likewise, some of what is attributed to Jesus has value and merit.

In the new testament, we have 4 individuals who claim that a certain person said and did certain things. Some of them beyond rational belief, but then, we have the added argument from authority that the person who did these things was the son of god to add gravity and authority to these statements.

If Peter, Paul, Luke, or Matthew had written: " Benjamin, the son of a fisherman, from the village of "village-by-the-sea" said..." no one would have paid any attention. However, by giving Jesus provenance as "the son of god", people tend to take notice.

And what, exactly, IS the "message of Christ"?  From the gospels, it seems that he is the gateway to heaven. Or is the message "be nice to people"? Or is it "be content in your misery, but believe in me and you will gain an afterlife reward"?

So I am asking you, sincerely, to give me your personal interpretation of this message.

 

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Desertrat56
11 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

I grew up, I questioned, I read - I didn't believe the answers.

The answer that was most often given to questions and the one that peeved me the most was "God gave us free will" - this apparently explained everything.

well if he is so bloody smart - he should have known better - shouldn't he!

THe answer I always got was "god's grace" or "no one can know the mind of god".  No one could explain to me what god's grace was satisfactorily.

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Habitat
1 hour ago, Davros of Skaro said:

At age 10 I was prevented from being a Christian by reading the Bible.

Decades later with further research I see the message of Jesus as ancient curse lifting atonement magic through Hellenistic well being philosophy, and bend over backwards interpretation of OT scripture via messianic expectations. The Gospels are not history, but platforms to push theology through allegory for the Christian community it came out of, and whoever wrote Mark got the cart rolling. If Jesus existed then he is the champion of the most buried in myth messiah wannabe of the 1st century CE.

You couldn't see the wood for the trees. And you see chicanery, bad faith, and deception behind every tree.

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jypsijemini
1 hour ago, RAyMO said:

The answer that was most often given to questions and the one that peeved me the most was "God gave us free will" - this apparently explained everything.

well if he is so bloody smart - he should have known better - shouldn't he!

God: This life is going to be confusing. There'll be lots of explanations for life. The meaning of life will be almost impossible to understand. There'll be a lot of weird phenomena that make you question everything. And as soon as Jesus comes home to me, all you'll have to go on is ancient scriptures that I allowed ordinary people to compile into a book. There were other scriptures from the same time but they contradict the main story, so just disregard those. And the ones that pre-date the ones written about me. And... half the bible is going to contradict itself as well, so it's best just to focus on Jesus.

Some of you aren't even going to know who I am but you should, because I'll always show you a way. You'll see me in my creation, etc. There's really no excuse not to believe in me. But it's your choice - that's the whole idea of free will. You're allowed to enjoy your lives and do your own thing free of rules while you're here if you really want to. I can forgive literally ANYTHING! But what I can't look past is your inability to believe in me. I'm very real. I don't have to prove it because I'm God. I was okay with proving it to the Hebrews and I even went so far as to incarnate as a human being and allowed you to kill me. That was the price of sin anyway so I always knew that was going to happen.( And you guys chose to sin right from the beginning! I know Adam and Eve did it first, but let's be honest - y'all would have done the same. So you'd better believe that the rest of you are all inherently sinful right from the get go. They were created perfect so why are you guys any better?) But the rest of humanity will just be limited to trusting a book and believing in their own experiences. I'm kinda tired of proving myself, really.

I like to play around with your beliefs. I'll answer your prayers and give you that parking space closest to the door - but that famine in Africa really isn't worth my time. Or your grandmother's cancer. Nobody should be able to predict or understand why I do what I do. I'm God - I'm allowed to do whatever I want. I am Wisdom so it's really not up to you lowly, sinful humans to judge my decisions and actions/inaction.

So go ahead, believe whatever you want. I'll hide fossils and bones all over the place and give you the science that will make you believe that my story is wrong. I'll allow for different beliefs (that's free will!) that seem better and more believable than the one I want you to believe. That's your choice. But you're wasting your life because you only get one shot to get it right and if you don't, your soul is doomed for eternity. Like, literally - eternity. I'll grant salvation and the Kingdom of Heaven to the people who had blind faith - but the rest of you earn yourselves eternal suffering and then I'm going to defeat the angel that defied me - and with his destruction, the rest of you shall follow. So there kinda will be an end to all your suffering. You'll just cease to exist in this realm and the spiritual realm altogether.

Seriously. Go ahead. You've got free will. Try it out and see where that gets you.

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Sherapy
14 hours ago, Habitat said:

The point is, that those who have put something behind them, usually don't feel the need to keep on talking about it. A bit like those old flared trousers, we don't trot them out for another run, they stay somewhere in the dark recesses of a wardrobe, for strictly historical purposes only.

Correction, perhaps you mean you don’t. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

You couldn't see the wood for the trees. And you see chicanery, bad faith, and deception behind every tree.

This applies to us all at one time or another, including you. 

It’s called the human experience. :tu:


Ah heck, I am in a good mood with my two cents,  it is not the worst idea to have a checks and balances in many directions, makes for well explored discussion.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Correction, perhaps you mean you don’t. 

 

Fixed that for you.

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Sherapy
Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Fixed that for you.

Thanks.

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Hammerclaw

That advice given to jypsijemini--probably blew the spelling--is probably starting to look rather appealing, right now.

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Habitat
5 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

This applies to us all at one time or another, including you. 

It’s called the human experience. :tu:

I think I prefer to err on the side of not assuming dark motives.

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jypsijemini
19 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

That advice given to jypsijemini--probably blew the spelling--is probably starting to look rather appealing, right now.

:lol: Which advice? I'm a little lost :lol:

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Jodie.Lynne
5 minutes ago, jypsijemini said:

I'm a little lost :lol:

Perfect! Then you'll fit right in with the rest of us. ;)

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Guyver

You know, it’s an interesting sociological observation....just peoples behavior.  We have a new person here - Gypsy- May I say, and everybody has to start jockeying for position and talking about people.  It’s just so obvious how community is engrained in human beings.  It overwhelms logic.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, jypsijemini said:

:lol: Which advice? I'm a little lost :lol:

Yes and now you are lost in the story with the rest of us......

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Crazy Horse
16 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I understand that you have a strong faith in the message of Christ, and that it has meaning and value to you, so please realize I am not attacking your belief.

However, we have nothing to verify that what has been attributed to Jesus, was actually said by him.

In Aesop's Fables, we can gain many insights to human nature, however, I don't think anyone actually believes the 'facts' of those fables (i.e. : the fox having dinner with the crane ). Likewise, some of what is attributed to Jesus has value and merit.

In the new testament, we have 4 individuals who claim that a certain person said and did certain things. Some of them beyond rational belief, but then, we have the added argument from authority that the person who did these things was the son of god to add gravity and authority to these statements.

If Peter, Paul, Luke, or Matthew had written: " Benjamin, the son of a fisherman, from the village of "village-by-the-sea" said..." no one would have paid any attention. However, by giving Jesus provenance as "the son of god", people tend to take notice.

And what, exactly, IS the "message of Christ"?  From the gospels, it seems that he is the gateway to heaven. Or is the message "be nice to people"? Or is it "be content in your misery, but believe in me and you will gain an afterlife reward"?

So I am asking you, sincerely, to give me your personal interpretation of this message.

 

This is my own words, not necessary verbatim, and this answer is a little rushed for my liking but...

"The kingdom of God is within, know thy first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you,". And, "These things that I do, you shall do greater still." 

Also, Christ gave us the two most important laws, "Love the Lord thy God....and, love thy neighbour." To my mind this means, love, serve, and help Creation in any way possible. To love creation is to love and serve God.

God, Creation and Heaven are the same thing.

To me the message is clear. You are divine, you can do the miraculous too, be good, love thy neighbour and God, and by living this truth, you shall be set free.

Free from pain, misery and ignorance. 

The Church put Christ upon a pedestal, and emasculated Christianity at the same time. To the Church there can only be one Son of God, whereas Christ said we are all divine. (a Gnostic idea too). If we could halfway realise our divinity, our true potential, then all the priests and clergy would be out of a job!  The Vatican could be turned into a home for the homeless, and the Vatican Bank could feed, house, cloth and educate folk.

Edited by Crazy Horse
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White Crane Feather
On 11/30/2019 at 11:43 PM, Mr Walker said:

rather than enter a long and detailed  response to this I would just  like to say tha t you have constructed ONE concept of what the garden might have been like and HOW humans might have responded.

I see the genesis story as a creation myth but one which makes a lot of sense of the human condition by people who lived without any scientific knowledge 

It also describes the effect of the change in human life from  a hunting gathering one which was close to nature, gods and spirits, to an agricultural/ pastoral one where physical knowledge an d skills were essential The writers would have noticed a falling awy in the spirituality of peole at the time relying on gods and a growing reliance on physical knowledge which led peole awy form belief ad reliance on nature spirits and gods  

THEY wouldn't have sen the life as boring. Indeed in a life of pain suffering, ealry death etc, where most women died in childbirth and most peole died of disease malnutrition or hard work, the concpet of such a paradise would have been very appealing 

One example. You cant assume the y would have over bred, They would not have had lust and desire as we know it, but a loving companionship The y were also very young and immature.

  The y had been in the garden a long time and never bred despite being allowed to do so

So the y might have spent a thousand years  before having their first child (inthe story) and then only had one or two  In the past humans had 14 to 20 children with only 2 or 3 surviving to maturity The population only began to explode once medicine and science stopped many of the deaths, Slowly humans reduced their rate of breeding until now it is about to dip below a replacement rate.

if all your children lived, there was no need to have 14, and indeed, today, most have 2.2 or less. If adam and eve had kept to that rate, even with immortality it would have take a long time to over populate the earth.  

 

 

 

Yes. The creation myth is clearly allegory regarding the transition of hunter gather societies to agrarian. It is still ongoing in some parts of the world as well.

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