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jypsijemini

What made you abandon Christianity?

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DieChecker
3 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Religion lies about who or what god is but I have never had any indication that we are to worship or "love" god above all others.  Every experience I have had indicates that we are here to love ourselves or learn to love ourselves so we can be more loving to others.  Selfish people do not love themselves, they hate themselves and think they lack something everyone else has. 

To a degree, I agree. Selfish people generally dont like others, or themselves. One can love oneself, others and God. There doesnt need to be selfishness, or selflessness, involved. 

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So when you try to make someone who does not proclaim love of god over all else as selfish or ignorant I get a little irked.  It is a manipulative ploy to allow someone to pretend to be superior and make others feel bad about themselves.  So, even though you did not specifically say those words they were implied and that is the most subversive of manipulation there is. You are kind, yet quietly judgemental because you think you know something others don't.  Guess what, everyone knows something no one else knows and it is personal knowledge, not global knowledge.  If it were global knowledge there would be irrefutable proof that would not require a scientist to explain it.

I think anyone who claims religion with someone who doesnt is obviously claiming knowledge the other doesnt have. I dont think that is judgemental. Just as a teacher knows more, but isnt necessarily judging.

And you are right that I didnt say those words.... But you did. Are you then trying to be manipulative? Is attempting a persuasive discussion manipulating, and if so, then is it wrong?

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Your relationship and knowing about god is for you only.  What you do with that is up to you.  I know very god loving people who allow others their own relationship with god or what ever the other feels they need without judgement.  Not perfect humans, normal humans that want the best for everyone they meet, including themselves.

I've respected... everyone here, regardless of religion, philosophy, or belief.

Yet Jesus, by way of the Bible, does call on Christian's to share their story... their own Gospel.... Witness... whatever you want to call it, with others. Thus being a Christian is NOT just a personal thing. We're called to share, even if only with those who are receptive.

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You didn't by any chance read that book I am Second did you? My question to that is what about family, if god is first and you are second where is your family?

If I'm second, then my family is there with me. And everyone else close behind. I'd rather love God at a 10, and myself/family at 9.99. Then just love myself first. 

Question: For those who love themselves first... Where does YOUR family fall? Same, or second, or even lower? 

I've known people who were completely self involved, and friends and family were a very distant second.

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DieChecker
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Assuming that God is the ultimate creator and that he cares about us or is 'good', then my problem would be with God.

Fair enough. 

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I wouldn't love God because, at best, he created the possibility for horribly bad things to happen. If Satan/aliens/Zeus had created the potential for children to get terminal diseases we wouldn't have any problem calling that 'evil', so I'm unwilling to special plead and give God an 'out' on that.

That's fair enough. Sounds perfectly logical.

I've sometimes wondered if the Bible and its stories would fit better with a much more local, less powerful God. One that has to learn by doing, and the trying to fix things afterward.

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If we are supposed to withhold judgment of something like this because maybe somehow in a way we don't understand the creation of these diseases is actually ultimately 'good', then that applies to everything and we can drop 'good', 'bad', 'evil', etc, from our vocabulary entirely.

That's a good argument. I'd also argue that perhaps we shouldnt use good and evil in this world, but lawful and unlawful. That seems to be the actual way our world works.

I would also agree God is bigger then we can really comprehend. Any being that could Create all this Universe, exist outside of time, be basically everywhere, and control anything, much less just create/organize the Earth, would be beyond our ability to figure out.

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DieChecker
44 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

How does one follow something that isn't perceptively there?

I have never encountered anything that I would consider a god. Am I supposed to follow someone else's conception of god?

You've never encountered God... But, have you actually tried?

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Why? This sounds like Pascal's Wager.

I personally think Pascals Wager is logical. If you believe you have the possibility to gain much. And if you have the possibility to loose little other then luxuries. 

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I don't love god because I don't believe it exists. The tremendous amount of suffering doesn't score any imaginary points either.

Why do babies rot away from cancer and AIDS and what not? Doesn't seem like they've had a fair shake at earning god's love and compassion. 

What about stillborn babies or ectopic pregnancy? 1 out of every 160 babies are stillborn. Is god just teaching the parents a lesson?

5,400,000 children under 5 died in 2017 alone. And that's down from 12,600,000 in 1990.

WTF did all these children do that merited a death sentence?

Those are all good questions. Why does anyone have to die? Why is anyone sick, or injured, or forced to work, or spoken harshly to? I've been told this is a fallen world and the Enemy stalks about it like a lion. Looking for meals. 

Myself, I believe God created the Enemy, so what he does is not outside Gods will. But I also believe I am not capable of understanding Gods plan, or will, so again... I really cant explain it.

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Really? I totally disagree with this sentiment. 

I have to prove I love god before anything good will happen? Why do bad things happen to good people and vice versa? 

I think you didnt understand my point here. Would you expect gifts from your mom before youd express love to her? 

If so, then I guess your opinion here is valid, though I still think that is messed up.

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How about god proves he loves me before I devote one second of my time and/or energy? It works both ways.

Have you tried "listening" and praying to see if God will show you love? If not, then what would you expect Gods love to appear as?

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Do you only do things for people who have proved their love for you?

Nope. I do things for others because I love them regardless of what they've done. Or who they are.

Love shouldnt be dependent from either side, it should just exist because we all exist. 

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Desertrat56
42 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

To a degree, I agree. Selfish people generally dont like others, or themselves. One can love oneself, others and God. There doesnt need to be selfishness, or selflessness, involved. 

I think anyone who claims religion with someone who doesnt is obviously claiming knowledge the other doesnt have. I dont think that is judgemental. Just as a teacher knows more, but isnt necessarily judging.

And you are right that I didnt say those words.... But you did. Are you then trying to be manipulative? Is attempting a persuasive discussion manipulating, and if so, then is it wrong?

I've respected... everyone here, regardless of religion, philosophy, or belief.

Yet Jesus, by way of the Bible, does call on Christian's to share their story... their own Gospel.... Witness... whatever you want to call it, with others. Thus being a Christian is NOT just a personal thing. We're called to share, even if only with those who are receptive.

If I'm second, then my family is there with me. And everyone else close behind. I'd rather love God at a 10, and myself/family at 9.99. Then just love myself first. 

Question: For those who love themselves first... Where does YOUR family fall? Same, or second, or even lower? 

I've known people who were completely self involved, and friends and family were a very distant second.

My response was a trigger response to what you said about putting god first.  I see that my response triggered you as well.  So we are triggered and can acknowledge that.  I have read enough of your posts to think you protest too much about not being judgemental.  I am judgemental, and I am working on that, recognize my triggers and my bias. 

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onlookerofmayhem
12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

You've never encountered God... But, have you actually tried?

Sure. When I was a kid I went to church, Sunday school and CCD. Read the bible. Prayed. Never was touched by any divine spirit. I don't see any god anywhere.

16 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I personally think Pascals Wager is logical. If you believe you have the possibility to gain much. And if you have the possibility to loose little other then luxuries. 

While I understand both sides of the argument, I find it useless to hedge my bet on the side that has never been shown to be an option. Seems like an empty promise. I'll only know after I'm dead if I'm wrong. I can deal with it then. If I die and nothing happens, ok. If there is an afterlife then I would hope for the opportunity to plead my case.

19 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I've been told this is a fallen world and the Enemy stalks about it like a lion.

So terrible things happen because of the devil?

22 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Myself, I believe God created the Enemy, so what he does is not outside Gods will.

So god should be held accountable for evil existing in the first place.

23 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I think you didnt understand my point here. Would you expect gifts from your mom before youd express love to her? 

Maybe I didn't, but it seemed to me you are saying god won't be nice if I don't love him. Why do true believers have horrid things happen to them and atheists have wonderful things happen to them? There seems to be no correlation that loving god will get you good things or not believing in god will get you bad things.

I don't expect gifts from anyone in the first place. And I don't think it should be predicated that one must be loved before they give.

You seem to echo that sentiment with :

26 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Nope. I do things for others because I love them regardless of what they've done. Or who they are.

That makes you a better being than your god, in my opinion. Your god, that created everything, needs to be loved in order to spare people from being punished? That's pretty petty.

27 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Have you tried "listening" and praying to see if God will show you love? If not, then what would you expect Gods love to appear as?

I'm not praying to god to show me love. I have absolutely zero need for it.

I would expect there be less torture, murder, rape, disease, poverty, war and the like for the people who do believe and pray to god. It seems to me that prayer hasn't done much to stop or impede any of these atrocities from happening on a constant basis for, at least, thousands of years. 

 

 

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Desertrat56

@DieChecker did I miss your "what made you abandon christianity" story or have you told yours yet?

Edited by Desertrat56
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Jodie.Lynne
56 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I personally think Pascals Wager is logical. If you believe you have the possibility to gain much. And if you have the possibility to loose little other then luxuries. 

Of course it 'sounds' logical to you: you already believe in the concept of your god. Of course, the concept of the wager makes your god seem like a gullible idiot. Imagine a being powerful to create everything (according to the believers), but is capable of being tricked by someone who is only paying lip service, "just in case".

But please, enlighten me as to what one is supposed to gain from belief.

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Jodie.Lynne
1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Myself, I believe God created the Enemy, so what he does is not outside Gods will.

So, if I armed a homicidal sociopath, and set him on a path of death and destruction, and then told everyone else that only I could protect them, that would be OK? Would I be the Good Guy?

Even if I didn't actually do anything to stop the sociopath, but just kept reassuring people that it would be OK, just to believe in me?

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Desertrat56
7 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

So, if I armed a homicidal sociopath, and set him on a path of death and destruction, and then told everyone else that only I could protect them, that would be OK? Would I be the Good Guy?

Even if I didn't actually do anything to stop the sociopath, but just kept reassuring people that it would be OK, just to believe in me?

The only problem I can see with this scenario is that the deity has never said anything one way or the other, it is always people (lowly humans) claiming things for the deity.  So how can one answer the question, much less make the assumption that one knows the answer?

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Will do
41 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

If there is an afterlife then I would hope for the opportunity to plead my case.

 

What in the world makes a person think that when they've lived their life being a faith deserter (if that's what they end up being at the end of their mortal life) that there'll be an opportunity to plead their case? 

There won't. 

Having distinguished themselves as a deserter, they'll have extinguished themselves and all opportunity to be or do anything forever.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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Jodie.Lynne
17 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The y can only be healed, empowered, strengthened, and made whole. 

And in just 9 small words, you have verified the concept that religion encourages low self esteem.

"one CANNOT be healed, empowered, etc., etc., without the power of GAWD on your side!"

In the RC church, there is a litany spoken by the congregation, just before communion. It's been a while, so I may not get it verbatim, but it goes like this:

"Lord I am not worthy to receive this gift, but only say the word, and my soul shall be healed."

Not. Worthy. 

I don't give a rats hindquarters what denomination you choose to opine about; I dare anyone to name one flavor of Christianity, (or Judaism, or Islam) that tells the believers that they are worthy, that they can stand on their own, that THEY, the people, have the power and ability to change their lives. Without recourse to prostrating oneself as worthless scum before an imagined being.

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Sherapy
20 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

The only problem I can see with this scenario is that the deity has never said anything one way or the other, it is always people (lowly humans) claiming things for the deity.  So how can one answer the question, much less make the assumption that one knows the answer?

If one is to go by the Philosophical definition of God, infinite perfection, namely only good, only powerful, only beneficial then it is fair to conclude that something is off. How can god only be beneficial and allow for such harm?

Then at this point, enter the war of the definitions of god, yet that doesn’t matter it only matters that one understands the definition contextually. 
 

For ex: let’s look at walker who is arguing for a god that is only love “the philosophical god.”
Die checker is arguing for a god that created evil too, so this supports the “biblical god” one who is all powerful and vengeful, the fear based god. 

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Jodie.Lynne
8 minutes ago, Will Due said:

What in the world makes a person think that when they've lived their life being a faith deserter (if that's what they end up being at the end of their mortal life) that there'll be an opportunity to plead their case? 

Aren't you one of those people who are always telling how god loves everyone?

If this being exists, and if your interpretation is correct, then why would this being punish people for depending on their own inborn traits? How insecure and fragile is your deity, that EVERYONE has to bend the knee and worship it?

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onlookerofmayhem
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

What in the world makes a person think that when they've lived their life being a faith deserter (if that's what they end up being at the end of their mortal life) that there'll be an opportunity to plead their case? 

There won't. 

Having distinguished themselves as a deserter, they'll have extinguished themselves and all opportunity to be anything forever.

 

 

I have no faith in god due to lack of evidence that it exists. Which might seem contrary, but faith is an illogical way to come to any conclusion. Why would I have faith in something I cannot be shown to exist? Because some old book says I should?

If god made me incapable of believing in him, that's his own fault.

If he gave me all my faculties and logic and yet there is still no sign of him then that is his failure, not mine.

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Sherapy
8 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Aren't you one of those people who are always telling how god loves everyone?

If this being exists, and if your interpretation is correct, then why would this being punish people for depending on their own inborn traits? How insecure and fragile is your deity, that EVERYONE has to bend the knee and worship it?

Ah shucks, Will exposed his god, it’s the biblical one.

It is my way or the highway one.

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Sherapy
19 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

I have no faith in god due to lack of evidence that it exists. Which might seem contrary, but faith is an illogical way to come to any conclusion. Why would I have faith in something I cannot be shown to exist? Because some old book says I should?

If god made me incapable of believing in him, that's his own fault.

If he gave me all my faculties and logic and yet there is still no sign of him then that is his failure, not mine.

Basically, you are not going to be fear mongered into a belief with no evidence, in other words you see through it, logically.

 

 

 

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Sherapy
9 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Aren't you one of those people who are always telling how god loves everyone?

If this being exists, and if your interpretation is correct, then why would this being punish people for depending on their own inborn traits? How insecure and fragile is your deity, that EVERYONE has to bend the knee and worship it?

He is old school bible god. 
Fear baby, so much so he is on here sharing his fear via fear mongering, 

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Will do
18 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

 god loves everyone

 

Yet there are those who don't love in return.

 

 

18 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

I have no faith in god

 

It's wonderful to be able to decide that for yourself. Imagine having no free will to choose in the matter.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

It is my way or the highway 

 

Yes it is. It's your way or the highway.

The common words of a deserter.

 

 

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Jodie.Lynne
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Yet there are those who don't love in return.

 

 

 

It's wonderful to be able to decide that for yourself. Imagine having no free will to choose in the matter.

 

 

 

Yes it is. It's your way or the highway.

The common words of a deserter.

 

 

WOW, so uncertain of your reasons for belief, that you even cherry-pick from those who question your stance.

Do you care to answer the question I posted?

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Sherapy
9 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Yet there are those who don't love in return.

 

 

 

It's wonderful to be able to decide that for yourself. Imagine having no free will to choose in the matter.

 

 

 

Yes it is. It's your way or the highway.

The common words of a deserter.

 

 

Will, the better question is what you scared of buddy?

Boo :P

Yes, I choose to see through you. Lol 

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Will do
15 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Will, the better question is what you scared of buddy?

 

That people I care about deeply will desert the opportunity to fight.

Fight the good fight of faith.

 

 

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onlookerofmayhem
38 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Basically, you are not going to be fear mongered into a belief with no evidence, in other words you see through it, logically.

 

 

 

Pretty much. I have no need to turn over every stone and light every crevice to search for god.

And I certainly have no fear of hell or retribution for the way I have lived my life.

I'm not scared and I don't need to be saved.

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XenoFish
54 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Aren't you one of those people who are always telling how god loves everyone?

He also says that everyone is god. Which means that god is a messed up creature.

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jypsijemini
1 hour ago, Will Due said:

What in the world makes a person think that when they've lived their life being a faith deserter (if that's what they end up being at the end of their mortal life) that there'll be an opportunity to plead their case? 

There won't. 

Having distinguished themselves as a deserter, they'll have extinguished themselves and all opportunity to be or do anything forever.

I had this drummed into me since birth.

It was such a terrifying thought to even consider letting it go because like you, I believed it.

But then I realised that this religion was only keeping my beliefs alive using fear tactics.

That the god I professed to love and follow was also being portrayed as this jealous, vengeful, almighty being who had no issues allowing his creation to destroy themselves.

The bible calls god the 'father'. What kind of father who claims to genuinely, deeply and honestly love his children sits back and goes, "Ah well, you really f-ed up this time. I told you so. I gave you chances. You made your bed. Lay in it."

An imperfect, flawed and selfish father, that's who.

So how can god be perfect, supreme, only-love, full of grace, mercy and forgiveness and yet he's jealous, selfish and vengeful. He doesn't just punish the 'deserters' (as you like to call them) - he obliterates them. He promises them eternal destruction. That's a pretty serious price for failure to believe. There's plenty of Christians who believe but don't obey - and the only requirement for eternal life is faith, not works - so it can be assumed that even the worst Christians are getting into heaven considering the only unforgivable sin is denying god.

How can god be perfect, supreme, only-love, full of grace, mercy and forgiveness - and yet he gives humans only one lifetime in which to get it right? He makes the path real smooth and easy for some, allowing them to be brought up in cultures and areas of the world where they will certainly hear about him and get that chance to choose him but for others, there's literally no chance. They're brought up in places where the bible is outlawed. Raised as Muslims. Raised in remote stone-age villages in the middle of nowhere. Why do they get one chance to save their souls just like the rest of us? They're out there worshipping their own gods - so why would the 'one true god' show them any kind of mercy or understanding? He didn't show any sympathy for the Canaanites, the Philistines, the town of Jericho or the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. But he was only interested in the Hebrews anyway - so what chance did the rest of them have?

Ugh, seriously.

The crux of this religion is based on fear. There are plenty of good things that it brings out in people - else no one would follow it. If god was just a big crazy a-hole, no one would go for it. Even Satanists believe in some positive things - it's not all just evil and terror and depravity. Every religion knows they have to sell it with something that appeals to what people are going to want. But they also have to instil this element of fear to keep people locked down and loyal.

You're continuing to believe because you're scared of being thrown in the hellfire and damned for eternity - but you like your faith because you think it's making you a better person and you have the promise of blissful, perfect eternal life and ultimate forgiveness.

You've seriously lost yourself to all of this. It's sad. You're sitting here pointing the finger at all the 'deserters' when you've deserted your own - human kind. You're relying on the belief of someone bigger and better than us who can promise you eternity and perfection outside of this reality so you don't seem to think it matters how you're treating everybody in the meantime because your salvation is at stake.

SMFH. Wake up, mate. Wake TF up.

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cormac mac airt
4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I would also agree God is bigger then we can really comprehend. Any being that could Create all this Universe, exist outside of time, be basically everywhere, and control anything, much less just create/organize the Earth, would be beyond our ability to figure out.

And yet that has neither stopped Jews, Christians nor even Muslims from pretending they're qualified to psychoanalyze God as to what he/she/it thinks, feels, knows, is capable of, etc. in order for them to pontificate to others what God wants from them. Humanity is its own worst enemy in this case IMO. 

cormac

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