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Sakari

Christianity stolen from Pagans

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Sakari

In the last 22 or so months, I have been doing a TON of reading and researching on spirituality. Most has been Norse Mythology. (Pagan / Heathen / Asatru)

It is very evident, and historically factual, that all of the Holidays Christianity celebrate, were Pagan Holidays. Yet, it seems it is so ignored. It would take me a lot of typing to say everything on my mind, and what I know now.

Even god, and jesus, and the crucifixion, all are stories taken, and twisted from the Edda's. (google it) " Hell" was stolen, and changed to be a bad thing. So much from what little we know about the Norse faiths and beliefs. (only know about 15% to 20%, scholars estimate) "christianity" is a spin off from the Norse belief's, and changed to control and scare people to follow someones system. (my opinion)

Well. I am just curious how many here know the facts, and figured I would open this can of worms for you all to enjoy.

I am now off on a bike ride. Weather finally cleared. I may, or may not be back to join in.

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Piney
48 minutes ago, Sakari said:

Even god, and jesus, and the crucifixion, all are stories taken, and twisted from the Edda's. (google it) " Hell" was stolen, and changed to be a bad thing. So much from what little we know about the Norse faiths and beliefs. (only know about 15% to 20%, scholars estimate) "christianity" is a spin off from the Norse belief's, and changed to control and scare people to follow someones system. (my opinion)

  Osiris and Adonai-Tammuz were the "Dying Gods" the "Idea of Jesus" was ripped from. There was probably no crucifixion in the Q Gospel. Most Virgin Mary statues actually portray the Roman idea of Isis with the blue gown, crown and stars and the first VM statues were rededicated Isis statues.

Edited by Piney
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Piney
49 minutes ago, Sakari said:

It is very evident, and historically factual, that all of the Holidays Christianity celebrate, were Pagan Holidays. Yet, it seems it is so ignored. It would take me a lot of typing to say everything on my mind, and what I know now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology

Start at the beginning mate. 

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third_eye

Back ten or fifteen years ago, publications on the topic is rare, but lately there's been an overwhelming increase and not always in a good way, sensationalist and cashing in on the trend should make choices pretty precarious, I myself chose to rely on the internet as contradictory as that sounds, there are a lot of academia sites that covers the basics well because this is rather old and established topic, very few would argue with the historical facts and recently uncovered insights.

~

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Piney
1 minute ago, third_eye said:

Back ten or fifteen years ago, publications on the topic is rare, but lately there's been an overwhelming increase and not always in a good way, sensationalist and cashing in on the trend should make choices pretty precarious, I myself chose to rely on the internet as contradictory as that sounds, there are a lot of academia sites that covers the basics well because this is rather old and established topic, very few would argue with the historical facts and recently uncovered insights.

I wish the writings attributed to Daruma were in English because I found a Greco-Buddhist concept in the Koine Greek version of Matthew. 

It would make one hell of a thread with some links.

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Will Due

 

Isn't it interesting how certain concepts pop up in almost every religion?

Of course, this points to something noteworthy about spiritual truth.

 

 

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third_eye
7 minutes ago, Piney said:

I wish the writings attributed to Daruma were in English because I found a Greco-Buddhist concept in the Koine Greek version of Matthew. 

It would make one hell of a thread with some links.

I can't be sure and I can't get at my backups as my PC is dead, maybe you can try the digitized version of the scroll in image format, I remember seeing it but I'm not sure if it's the same you're referring to. 

Don't remember the site either, sorry, only thing I dare say is it's maybe a museum site or something related the ancient arts. 

~

ETA : dunhuang? 

~

Edited by third_eye
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Piney
1 minute ago, third_eye said:

ETA : dunhuang? 

 

Praus........"The praus (one that holds his strength in reserve/ for good) shall inherit the Earth".

It certainly changes the whole verse. :lol:

 

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third_eye
1 minute ago, Piney said:

Praus........"The praus (one that holds his strength in reserve/ for good) shall inherit the Earth".

It certainly changes the whole verse. :lol:

 

Actually that's what "meek" originally means, has but does not, hidden... does not mean weak as it is most commonly associated with nowadays 

~

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and then
1 hour ago, Sakari said:

It is very evident, and historically factual, that all of the Holidays Christianity celebrate, were Pagan Holidays. Yet, it seems it is so ignored. It would take me a lot of typing to say everything on my mind, and what I know now.

It explains why there is a movement to celebrate the Jewish High days in some churches.  I refuse to do that because Christians are not told to do so.  My understanding is that the early church used the days that were already "holy" for pagans to make it easier to convert them.  I'm not sure how much converting got done under that system.  I'd imagine it was more about converting the church to their ways ;) 

It's also common for people to nullify (in their own estimation) any true significance of Christ being the Creator because of all of the historical comparisons.  To each his own.  The element of His deity that will prove them in error is prophecy.  If He is who He says He is then those things written about Him will be fulfilled.  Most of those prophetic predictions are between 2000 and 2700 years old.  Reading news links out of the M.E. today, I think we are closing in on the denouement of global, anthropocentric governance.  He said in His recorded word that at the point He will return, if he delayed any longer there would be "no flesh saved alive".  

The coming age will prove, IMO, every scripture related to Christ as accurate though it may well be in ways that no one really understands the way they think they do.  He IS the Creator and He WILL rule and reign over the earth for a period of time.  Most of the horrors that are predicted for the end of this age are created by man and unleashed on man.  No news there. it has always been that way.

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Sakari said:

In the last 22 or so months, I have been doing a TON of reading and researching on spirituality. Most has been Norse Mythology. (Pagan / Heathen / Asatru)

It is very evident, and historically factual, that all of the Holidays Christianity celebrate, were Pagan Holidays. Yet, it seems it is so ignored. It would take me a lot of typing to say everything on my mind, and what I know now.

Even god, and jesus, and the crucifixion, all are stories taken, and twisted from the Edda's. (google it) " Hell" was stolen, and changed to be a bad thing. So much from what little we know about the Norse faiths and beliefs. (only know about 15% to 20%, scholars estimate) "christianity" is a spin off from the Norse belief's, and changed to control and scare people to follow someones system. (my opinion)

Well. I am just curious how many here know the facts, and figured I would open this can of worms for you all to enjoy.

I am now off on a bike ride. Weather finally cleared. I may, or may not be back to join in.

I dunno about the core beliefs, but there is no doubt that Christianity "stole" from pagans. 

This is a standard technique... if you want to overthrow the worship of the "old(er) gods", you simply transpose things. You make elements of worship of the "new" god sufficiently similar to worship of the "old" god that people will naturally flow from one to the other. 

Hence Christmas. The 25th December.. in order to supplant the old Roman feast of Saturnalia. Same dates. 

Speaking of Christmas... the modern-day (and not so modern-day) images of holly and robins. This was 'stolen' directly from Druidism and Paganism. It's a form of "cultural appropriation" to slide people from worshiping Pagan gods, to worshiping Allah, or Christ, or whatever.

 

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Kenemet
2 hours ago, Sakari said:

In the last 22 or so months, I have been doing a TON of reading and researching on spirituality. Most has been Norse Mythology. (Pagan / Heathen / Asatru)

It is very evident, and historically factual, that all of the Holidays Christianity celebrate, were Pagan Holidays. Yet, it seems it is so ignored. It would take me a lot of typing to say everything on my mind, and what I know now.

Even god, and jesus, and the crucifixion, all are stories taken, and twisted from the Edda's. (google it) " Hell" was stolen, and changed to be a bad thing. So much from what little we know about the Norse faiths and beliefs. (only know about 15% to 20%, scholars estimate) "christianity" is a spin off from the Norse belief's, and changed to control and scare people to follow someones system. (my opinion)

Well. I am just curious how many here know the facts, and figured I would open this can of worms for you all to enjoy.
 

Well... you've entered into an interesting area, but be sure that what you've found is reliable.

Christianity starts as a branch of Judaism and while ideas are possibly blends of other religions, your reading should have taught you that ALL religions change over time and merge events and celebrations important to that area (and ideas and stories) into their structure.

Christianity, however, begins as a branch of Judaism, not Nordic/Celtic faiths, and the practice of crucifixion as punishment among Romans, Carthaginians, a Persians and dates to at least 500 BC (earlier than the Celts.)  The Eddas were written in the 13th century and the material is from the Viking Age (800 AD.... so 800 years after Jesus, if he lived.)

..and getting into the individual holidays and feast days is quite another thing, but we can discuss that.  I think that if you tease apart the real scholarship, you will find it is even more complicated than you thought.

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Piney
50 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Persians

There are serious Zoroastrian borrowings and @eight bits and I have thrown around the idea that Matthew was composed by a Zoroastrian convert, but I never classified them as "Pagan". 

The fact that God suddenly had a "adversary" in Satan was a pure Zoroastrian concept. 

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, Sakari said:

Even god, and jesus, and the crucifixion, all are stories taken, and twisted from the Edda's. (google it) " Hell" was stolen, and changed to be a bad thing. So much from what little we know about the Norse faiths and beliefs. (only know about 15% to 20%, scholars estimate) "christianity" is a spin off from the Norse belief's, and changed to control and scare people to follow someones system. (my opinion)

Piney is right, you need to go back a little further than the  Norse.  They were just picking up and  sometimes modifying traditions from earlier people.  

Here is one for your thought. Odin, sometimes called All-Father  of the Lord of the Galllows  was what we would call a witch as well. He practiced seidr, which was generally referred to as women's magic. He represented that aspect of spirit that would sacrifice all, his oaths and even himself to gain his goal. He was not always respected for this aspect of oath breaker.  He has more aspects than benevolent father.  More complex than most superficial accounts.  He had a famous spear, Gungnir, and was often patronized by the upper class.  If you get a chance, read what he says about his ravens and which he fears losing most.

Thor seems more beloved by the common people.  He is a little more direct.  In the stories Snorri recounts, he has a hammer, Mjolnir.  but I wonder if in older days that had a been a club.  

Although the holidays coincide with Norse and other celebrations they all have their roots further back than Norse times. One big difference is that most of our European ancestors did not have omnipotent, omniscient, or immortal gods.

Be aware when you read about Asatru, in modern times that has been hijacked by the Norse Revival glorification of the Norse (read white) race. Originally, it was not nazi friendly belief, no matter how many Youtube videos might tell you so. But of course probably you have found that out already.

If you want to feel the humanity of that age reaching out to touch our hearts, read the poem Egil composed for the funeral of his drowned son.

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Piney
53 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Piney is right, you need to go back a little further than the  Norse.  They were just picking up and  sometimes modifying traditions from earlier people.  

The "Nerthus worshippers" as noted by Tacitus were slightly different in belief that the "Nordic proper". One was influenced by Uralic beliefs and a possible 3rd influence and the more southern influenced by Celtic and/ or it was just the transition point.   

Edited by Piney
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Jodie.Lynne
5 hours ago, Sakari said:

I am now off on a bike ride. Weather finally cleared. I may, or may not be back to join in.

LOL 

Sure, throw a grenade and then walk away! :D

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Sakari
47 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Piney is right, you need to go back a little further than the  Norse.  They were just picking up and  sometimes modifying traditions from earlier people.  

Here is one for your thought. Odin, sometimes called All-Father  of the Lord of the Galllows  was what we would call a witch as well. He practiced seidr, which was generally referred to as women's magic. He represented that aspect of spirit that would sacrifice all, his oaths and even himself to gain his goal. He was not always respected for this aspect of oath breaker.  He has more aspects than benevolent father.  More complex than most superficial accounts.  He had a famous spear, Gungnir, and was often patronized by the upper class.  If you get a chance, read what he says about his ravens and which he fears losing most.

Thor seems more beloved by the common people.  He is a little more direct.  In the stories Snorri recounts, he has a hammer, Mjolnir.  but I wonder if in older days that had a been a club.  

Although the holidays coincide with Norse and other celebrations they all have their roots further back than Norse times. One big difference is that most of our European ancestors did not have omnipotent, omniscient, or immortal gods.

Be aware when you read about Asatru, in modern times that has been hijacked by the Norse Revival glorification of the Norse (read white) race. Originally, it was not nazi friendly belief, no matter how many Youtube videos might tell you so. But of course probably you have found that out already.

If you want to feel the humanity of that age reaching out to touch our hearts, read the poem Egil composed for the funeral of his drowned son.

@tatetopa

I see you are also into this :)

Right next to me (and I have more) is a library of Norse, and Toltec books. Mainly Norse. The Edda's, Sagas, Havamal, and more. 10 in total. I have been busy. I am in 3 groups dedicated people to this. Most are not in the US, and are all very good people. I have One of Odin's Wolves, and one of his Ravens on my left arm. Other two will be later. (you can guess the two). I wear a mjolnir , and a helm of awe, and a Algiz rune around my neck :)
I have a set of runes, made from a Ash tree.

My Bike has a mjolnir , Helm of awe, and a few other Norse symbols on it. Along with our trailer we pull behind it.

I am well aware of the white supremacist idiots, and find myself sometimes educating people on that. Hate them b*******. Idiots.

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Kenemet
1 hour ago, Piney said:

There are serious Zoroastrian borrowings and @eight bits and I have thrown around the idea that Matthew was composed by a Zoroastrian convert, but I never classified them as "Pagan". 

The fact that God suddenly had a "adversary" in Satan was a pure Zoroastrian concept. 

But that's a Judaic concept (not Christian) and while its roots may be in Zoroastrianism, there are a number of religions with evil deities or even opponent deities (Set/Sutesh in Egyptian religions counts as an adversary though not a devil per se).  IMHO, I don't think it was sudden.  

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Sakari
27 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

LOL 

Sure, throw a grenade and then walk away! :D

I'll be around :)

Kind of missing the place after my recent activity here. Only if crappy weather, and I have absolutely nothing else to do. Or, maybe while at work occasionally :)

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RoofGardener
29 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

LOL 

Sure, throw a grenade and then walk away! :D

Cycle away, in this case ? 

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Piney
1 minute ago, Kenemet said:

But that's a Judaic concept (not Christian) and while its roots may be in Zoroastrianism, there are a number of religions with evil deities or even opponent deities (Set/Sutesh in Egyptian religions counts as an adversary though not a devil per se).  IMHO, I don't think it was sudden.  

Sheol, the "Common Grave" was the end result and the Archangel Samael was a member of God's Court. Not a exile fighting him in Judaic thought. 

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Kenemet
20 minutes ago, Piney said:

Sheol, the "Common Grave" was the end result and the Archangel Samael was a member of God's Court. Not a exile fighting him in Judaic thought. 

Okay.  Wasn't sure of the historical development... had to go re-read.  It's been ages since I read Pagel's book.  

(for quick reference on the development of the idea of Satan/devil (for those of you new to this), wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan#Historical_development)

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Piney
3 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Okay.  Wasn't sure of the historical development... had to go re-read.  It's been ages since I read Pagel's book.  

Even in the "Testament of Job" written between the 1st Century BC and the 1st Century AD he's still described as a "prosecuting council" albeit nastier.

I just saw Elaine. She's the bestest. :tu:

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ThereWeAreThen
11 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Isn't it interesting how certain concepts pop up in almost every religion?

Of course, this points to something noteworthy about spiritual truth.

 

 

No...it really doesn't.

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Big Jim

"Stolen" is putting it too strong.  You might say that Paganism influenced Christianity, but since there are still Pagans, with their original beliefs intact, nothing was stolen from them.  Did modern man steal customs and language from earlier civilizations?  It brings to mind a saying that Pete Seeger attributed to his father, "plagiarism is basic to all culture".  When it comes to religious beliefs it is almost impossible to look back far enough to find an original concept.  So many diverse religions, often in remote places and without cross contact, have developed the same beliefs that they must arise from something besides copying each other.   The cosmos is one obvious influence, with so many holidays centering on the solstices and equinoxes.  Others, like Christmas honoring the birth of Christ, may have originated to commemorate other figures lost to history until only the celebration remains.  It's not the origins of religion that matter but the teachings.  They are all similar at their core and survive because they help us survive.  Would mankind still exist if we did not aspire to live by our higher nature?  What does it matter if we give it a name or a cast of characters?

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