Ex-CIA sentenced for spying for China.

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Once again, you are doing a purposeful mis-characterization of the protesters.

You turning a blind eye does not make the world blind, you carry on... 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

You ignore the hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters every weekend. While you deny any and all forms of police brutality or violence against Pro-Democracy politicians. 

You rationalize your hypocrisy any way you care to OR want, it doesn't change the facts, your Pro democracy thugs is still at it, destroying and burning and physically attacking people every day and night, brutality is not a word you should be using to accuse anybody of I were you, most of all, the police... 

The truth is, the Hong Kong police has been showing more than restraint... 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

It's not even regime change. The protesters have 5 clear common sense demands lol.

Yeah, right, all those Union Jack and star spangled banner waving is just to fan the flames... 

Wanna Me to play you the Yankee doodle dandy for my supper too?

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

The elections show the majority of them want these changes.

Regime change you mean? 

Is that how it works? Just in case you don't understand what district elections means, it means just that, district representatives... 

Better luck next time... 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

But seeing how you and the police call dehumanize them and call them cockroaches, you don't care. 

You mean referring to the Chinese as "locusts" is a term of endearment? 

I care for cockroaches as much as I care for the roaches, they stop being cockroaches then I will care more. 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

The HKers deserve to have the freedoms they are fighting for.

More hypocrisy, before your cockroaches destroyed Hong Kong... 

Quote

Read More About Hong KongHong Kong's economic freedom score is 90.2, sustaining its status as the world's freest economy in the 2019 Index. Its overall score is unchanged from 2018, with increases in scores for trade freedom, monetary freedom, and government integrity countered by a decline in judicial effectiveness.

https://www.heritage.org › ranking

Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic ...

~

How about we put our heads together and fight for those millions of Americans that demands that Trump be removed, impeached and jailed like all democratic and free people are fighting for... 

~

[spartan max2]

@third_eye

They aren't fighting for economic freedom. Lol

Read their 5 demands and tell me what you have against it.

 

They already got the first demand because of their efforts. The duel sufferage seems like a just and common sense demand. 

[ExpandMyMind]

17 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I don't understand why this has spun into a discussion of Hong Kong. 

There was an american citizen of Chinese ancestry, a former CIA operative,  who decided to sell confidential information - possibly including the names of CIA assets in China - to the Chinese government for money. It seems all very simple to me ? 

Because it's all part of the same, giant anti-China conspiracy, perpetuated by the West in an attempt to legitimise the "covert" MI6/CIA operation, silly.

From what I gather, almost the entire HK population are paid actors for the West.

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

@third_eye

They aren't fighting for economic freedom. Lol

That's all you care about or only what you read? 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Read their 5 demands and tell me what you have against it.

 

They already got the first demand because of their efforts. The duel sufferage seems like a just and common sense demand. 

Yeah, and a murderer got away with strangling his pregnant girl friend in Taiwan because of it, two for the price of one eh?

"LOL" over that, I don't care to if you'll excuse me...

The rest of the demands means the administration should hand over the governing of the country to them... 

Yeah, "LOL"

~

[spartan max2]

5 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Because it's all part of the same, giant anti-China conspiracy, perpetuated by the West in an attempt to legitimise the "covert" MI6/CIA operation, silly.

From what I gather, almost the entire HK population are paid actors for the West.

Ikr, all couple million of them lol.

It's inconceivable that they just want greater voting rights.

[spartan max2]

4 minutes ago, third_eye said:

That's all you care about or only what you read? 

~

Yeah, and a murderer got away with strangling his pregnant girl friend in Taiwan because of it, two for the price of one eh?

"LOL" over that, I don't care to if you'll excuse me...

The rest of the demands means the administration should hand over the governing of the country to them... 

Yeah, "LOL"

~

HK mistrust being under CCP law because of how the CCP suppresses dissidents and pro democracy groups.

They would lose most of the freedoms they have.

Unfortunately someone got away with a crime because the Chinese goverment is proven to not be a trustworthy Stewart of it's people's human rights.

Also, if HK basically wants independence as you assert, then it's imperalistic and wrong to stop them.

[ExpandMyMind]

1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

Haha don't wish too much, I have always been pretty right when it comes to economics. 

You might want to re-evaluate that stance.

Quote

First, we show why policymakers need to focus on the poor and the middle class. Earlier IMF work has shown that income inequality matters for growth and its sustainability. Our analysis suggests that the income distribution itself matters for growth as well. Specifically, if the income share of the top 20 percent (the rich) increases, then GDP growth actually declines over the medium term, suggesting that the benefits do not trickle down. In contrast, an increase in the income share of the bottom 20 percent (the poor) is associated with higher GDP growth. The poor and the middle class matter the most for growth via a number of interrelated economic, social, and political channels. 

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/sdn/2015/sdn1513.pdf

They have similar findings with other studies, if I remember correctly. It's a simple concept though: putting more money in the hands of the poorest in our society stimulates an economy far more than does doing so with the wealthy (as we do with tax breaks and loopholes for elites). It's simple really. When rich people have more money they don't spend it, they hoard it. But when you offer the same monetary level of relief to the poorest, they stimulate the economy because all of that money goes right back into circulation.

It's always more beneficial for a society to prioritise the poor over the wealthy. It's why socialism works. It's why the New Deal (which, frighteningly, all Republican Supreme Court Justices have signalled they want to abolish) resulted in massive economic growth and ushered in a golden age for US wealth. The steady erosion of those principals, with the continual enriching of the most wealthy (in both our countries) via tax breaks and government hand-outs, has resulted in the largest unequal distribution of wealth that we have seen since before the Great Depression. It is simply unsustainable.

Anyways, that's just my view on the matter. I won't derail the thread any longer.

[SHaYap]

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

HK mistrust being under CCP law because of how the CCP suppresses dissidents and pro democracy groups.

Don't break the law and you can yabber jabber all you want like the billions of Chinese, what you don't understand or refuse to accept is that China takes responsibility and culpability very seriously and the laws are laws because it's supposed to be strict, otherwise there's no point to having laws, been that way since the days of emperors and before to since the CCP, you don't like it, tough luck, it doesn't give you any rights to stick your nose in it like your Congress is doing for well over five decades. 

~

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

They would lose most of the freedoms they have.

Yeah, and Jesus walks in tomorrow and buys you a beer and thanks you too, yeah? 

~

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Unfortunately someone got away with a crime because the Chinese goverment is proven to not be a trustworthy Stewart of it's people's human rights.

Ahhhh bogeyman much? 

Take responsibility for once, admit it that this hypocrisy of yours is culpable, Hong Kong had extradition treaties with many countries, but treaties with China is not trustworthy because what? Their Chinese? 

Wanna me to tap dance the boogie woogie bugle boy from company C for my supper, massa? 

~

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Also, if HK basically wants independence as you assert, then it's imperalistic and wrong to stop them.

You just walked out on stupid territory, Hong Kong is China... 

Yeah, now it is

You funny American 

~

 

[spartan max2]

6 minutes ago, third_eye said:

 

~

You just walked out on stupid territory, Hong Kong is China... 

Yeah, now it is

You funny American 

~

 

You're getting pretty flustered. 

Yep HK is owned by China.

And if they want independence, like you assert. Then they should get it. It's morally wrong to stop them.

It's pretty simple. 

 

[SHaYap]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

You're getting pretty flustered. 

You're making me blush, you want me to bend over for you too? 

~

Just now, spartan max2 said:

Yep HK is owned by China.

Not owned, Hong Kong is China, always is and was... 

~

Just now, spartan max2 said:

And if they want independence, like you assert. Then they should get it. It's morally wrong to stop them.

What they get or should not get is up to China, you of all people should be the last to talk about the morality of what is or not, maybe you should look in the faces of those old folks and women that your glorified "democracy" thugs have battered , brutalized, set on fire, stoned to death and explain what's so moralistic about them getting treated that way. 

~

Just now, spartan max2 said:

It's pretty simple. 

Yeah, so too do the Americans that is demanding that Trump be impeached, removed and jailed, millions and millions of them that is living in a country that is guaranteed their freedom and independence... 

Happy New year... 

~

[spartan max2]

15 minutes ago, third_eye said:

You're making me blush, you want me to bend over for you too? 

~

Not owned, Hong Kong is China, always is and was... 

~

What they get or should not get is up to China, you of all people should be the last to talk about the morality of what is or not, maybe you should look in the faces of those old folks and women that your glorified "democracy" thugs have battered , brutalized, set on fire, stoned to death and explain what's so moralistic about them getting treated that way. 

~

Yeah, so too do the Americans that is demanding that Trump be impeached, removed and jailed, millions and millions of them that is living in a country that is guaranteed their freedom and independence... 

Happy New year... 

~

Once again, hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters. Endless police brutality. One Pro-Democracy politician got his ear bit off ffs.

The election results show your views are the minority.

Your "what-aboutism" is silly. In 2020 people will be able to vote on Trump.

Are you fine with allowing HK to have a vote on their demands or Independence? The CCP would be terrified to allow such a thing.

If a people want independence and to self-govern then it is wrong to stop them.

If people want human rights and freedoms protected under the law, then it is wrong to stop them.

That's basic morality. 

Owned by China or part of China is just semantics. It does not negate that it's wrong to deny a people their autonomy and freedom. Only CCP propganada somehow thinks "being part of China" justifies all manner of human rights violations.

China justifying denying the demands of the HK population simply "because it's China" is moronic and weak logic. 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by spartan max2

[Piney]

4 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I have a hard time understanding what the motive would be. Why would the UK or any other major country want an unstable China? Why would they want to manufacture a Hong Kong rebellion or revolution? An unstable China is quite possibly one of the scariest things I can imagine in the world.

Do a little background reading on the Opium Wars then you tell us. 

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Once again, hundreds of thousands kf peaceful protesters. Endless police brutality. One Pro-Democracy politician got his way bit off.

The election results show your views are the minority.

Terrorist attacks on people tend to do that to people, they are terrorised... 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Your "what-aboutism" is silly. In 2020 people will be able to vote on Trump.

Who said anything about not getting to voting? Many many Millions of Americans wants him impeached, removed and jailed... NOW 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Are you fine with allowing HK to have a vote on their demands or Independence?

Who am I to say one way or the other, most of all, who are you, frankly, to say so? 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

If a people want independence and to self-govern then it is wrong to stop them.

That's basic morality. 

If they don't like it, they can go... That's basic morality, you don't impose your view on the many billions of others

That's not how democratic systems work 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Owned by China or part of China is just semantics. It does not negate that it's wrong to deny a people their autonomy and freedom. Only CCP propganada somehow thinks "being part of China" justifies all manner of human rights violations

You switch back to your echo chamber mode... Hong Kong was doing fine before your hired thugs started undermining the city, your senator rubio even had the gall to say Hong Kong is America's internal affair... 

Yeah, sink in the hypocrisy, that's what keeping your so called country afloat 

~

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Because it's all part of the same, giant anti-China conspiracy, perpetuated by the West in an attempt to legitimise the "covert" MI6/CIA operation, silly.

From what I gather, almost the entire HK population are paid actors for the West.

Yeeeees.... ummm.....< backs slowly away>  < Nurse.. NURSE.... > 

Edited December 2, 2019 by RoofGardener

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

Terrorist attacks on people tend to do that to people, they are terrorised... 

~

Who said anything about not getting to voting? Many many Millions of Americans wants him impeached, removed and jailed... NOW 

~

Who am I to say one way or the other, most of all, who are you, frankly, to say so? 

~

If they don't like it, they can go... That's basic morality, you don't impose your view on the many billions of others

That's not how democratic systems work 

~

You switch back to your echo chamber mode... Hong Kong was doing fine before your hired thugs started undermining the city, your senator rubio even had the gall to say Hong Kong is America's internal affair... 

Yeah, sink in the hypocrisy, that's what keeping your so called country afloat 

~

You're delusional dude 

You speak ill about HK Pro-Democracy movement and protesters every chance you get. Calling them violent, cockroaches, paid U.S thugs, question the election results, deny all police violence, call their demands ridiculous, defend China in any and all situations.

And then you act like you are neutral and do not want to tell them what to do. 

You honestly think millions of people are hired thugs by the U.S  lol! I can't even take that serious. 

[SHaYap]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

You're delusional dude 

You're mistaken, I get my news from the people in Hong Kong , live and as it happens... 

~

Just now, spartan max2 said:

You speak ill about HK Pro-Democracy movement and protesters every chance you get. Calling them violent, cockroaches, paid U.S thugs, question the election results, deny all police violence, call their demands ridiculous, defend China in any and all situations.

I'm stating facts, if it makes China looks good, it's because of what the cockroaches are doing, don't blame me. I testify as a witness, not as a propagandist disseminating agent.

You try all you want to wipe the slate clean on those thugs, they'll get their dues, once they really figure out what that Hong Kong bill truly means , you'll get the clear picture of how much support these thugs really have. 

~

Just now, spartan max2 said:

And then you act like you are neutral and do not want to tell them what to do. 

You honestly think millions of people are hired thugs by the U.S  lol! I can't even take that serious. 

Echo chamber again, there ain't no escape in there bud, all you're gonna find is your echoes... 

~

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

You turning a blind eye does not make the world blind, you carry on... 

~

You rationalize your hypocrisy any way you care to OR want, it doesn't change the facts, your Pro democracy thugs is still at it, destroying and burning and physically attacking people every day and night, brutality is not a word you should be using to accuse anybody of I were you, most of all, the police... 

The truth is, the Hong Kong police has been showing more than restraint... 

~

Yeah, right, all those Union Jack and star spangled banner waving is just to fan the flames... 

Wanna Me to play you the Yankee doodle dandy for my supper too?

~

Regime change you mean? 

Is that how it works? Just in case you don't understand what district elections means, it means just that, district representatives... 

Better luck next time... 

~

You mean referring to the Chinese as "locusts" is a term of endearment? 

I care for cockroaches as much as I care for the roaches, they stop being cockroaches then I will care more. 

~

More hypocrisy, before your cockroaches destroyed Hong Kong... 

~

How about we put our heads together and fight for those millions of Americans that demands that Trump be removed, impeached and jailed like all democratic and free people are fighting for... 

~

The side the government backed was collectively decimated in almost all of those local elections. That's the real protest and quite unambiguous.  They were all on the same page. It's only lip service to Democracy, anyways--the Chinese Government is anything but. 

[ExpandMyMind]

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

What they get or should not get is up to China

That is simply not true. The right to self-determination is a fundamental human right.

Quote

Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order. Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/self_determination_(international_law)

What you describe is a dictatorship. If China want to keep pretending they're a democracy and that their government represents the people then they'd better read up on the standard international laws.

All things being said, the Hong Kong people have a right to choose their own country, their own leadership and anything else they want within the boundaries of international law. Anything else is unadulterated, undeniable authoritarianism, which is ****ing disgusting.

 

 

[SHaYap]

24 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The side the government backed was collectively decimated in almost all of those local elections. That's the real protest and quite unambiguous.  They were all on the same page. It's only lip service to Democracy, anyways--the Chinese Government is anything but. 

Look at the numbers, just a little over 4 million registered, about little over 70% cast votes, a margin of a shade over 50% ... Hardly many millions was it? 

What happened to the rest of the voters? 

Were they intimidated by the government into not voting or were they terrorised into staying home and not willing to risk bodily harm against the thugs and mob violence? 

You can speculate all you want about how significant the win is, the people of Hong Kong knows the numbers and reasons... 

By the way, the thugs and mob are still at it, setting fires, disrupting the peace, attacking and beating up people that dared to question them. 

Welcome to reality.... 

~

3 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

All things being said, the Hong Kong people have a right to choose their own country, their own leadership and anything else they want within the boundaries of international law. Anything else is unadulterated, undeniable authoritarianism, which is ****ing disgusting.

International law? 

You mean like Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, God knows how many African nations sponsored by America, South America? 

What the falk about Falklands while we're at it... 

Hong Kong is China, China determines their future, like it or not, agree or not, that's the law... International or grandma's law... 

What are the percentages for gun control in the US as it stands today? 

Doesn't work out so well for the people, by the people, of the people did it? 

You're more intelligent than that, surely you know the difference between something over a million and many millions, didn't do much good for your brand and label of democracy did it? 

~

[spartan max2]

Hong Kong had a record setting voter turn-out and your argument is claiming voter supression lol. Seems like a contradiction.

It's was a total of 57 percent of those who voted.

The most telling is how much of the youth voted pro-democracy. Showing how each year the trend will get higher and higher.

[spartan max2]

22 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

That is simply not true. The right to self-determination is a fundamental human right.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/self_determination_(international_law)

What you describe is a dictatorship. If China want to keep pretending they're a democracy and that their government represents the people then they'd better read up on the standard international laws.

All things being said, the Hong Kong people have a right to choose their own country, their own leadership and anything else they want within the boundaries of international law. Anything else is unadulterated, undeniable authoritarianism, which is ****ing disgusting.

 

 

Good job at breaking it down to the core of the issue. 

I get too caught up with arguing auxillirary details. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by spartan max2

[ExpandMyMind]

10 minutes ago, third_eye said:

International law? 

You mean like Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, God knows how many African nations sponsored by America, South America? 

Your argument:

'They shouldn't go to prison because there are others who have broken that same law and got away with it'.

That's not an argument, it's a deflection. Pure Whattaboutism.

11 minutes ago, third_eye said:

What the falk about Falklands while we're at it... 

The Falklands is a perfect example - but in support of my point, not yours. You have a group of people who vote to choose to stay a part of the UK. They are exercising their right to self-determination, which is why Argentina has no real argument.

Thanks for bringing it up.

14 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Hong Kong is China, China determines their future, like it or not, agree or not, that's the law... International or grandma's law... 

Sure then, but let's not pretend China is anything other than a Nazi, Soviet-styled boot on the necks of their citizens. I mean they basically are a Nazi-equivalent regime anyways, so just label them as such, officially. 

I genuinely cannot believe you're here defending China. A country that locks up political opposition and executes prisoners to harvest their organs. What on earth.

16 minutes ago, third_eye said:

What are the percentages for gun control in the US as it stands today? 

Doesn't work out so well for the people, by the people, of the people did it? 

You're more intelligent than that, surely you know the difference between something over a million and many millions, didn't do much good for your brand and label of democracy did it? 

I don't know what any of this means or has to do with the current discussion.

[ExpandMyMind]

8 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Good job at breaking it down to the core of the issue. 

I get too caught up with arguing auxillirary details. 

You can thank my 4000 or so posts, arguing with pro-Israel members. That and Noam Chomsky.

[quiXilver]

This next generation in China (and across the globe) isn't buying into the old model of life, it's that simple.  They have been exposed to another model of living and are rejecting the old.  The old way, while being resisted now, will eventually no longer need to be resisted as it will inevitably fall away with a whimper as that generation inevitably dies off and those who align with that world view cease to be present.

We're seeing the vision of Buckminster Fuller playing out. 

 

Quote

You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.

 ~ Buckminster Fuller

 

The new model is present and as the old generation passes, its model goes with it.

 

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Hong Kong had a record setting voter turn-out and your argument is claiming voter supression lol. Seems like a contradiction.

Wanna go through the numbers with Me?

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

It's was a total of 57 percent of those who voted.

70% Of just a shade over four million registered... Correct? 

~

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

The most telling is how much of the youth voted pro-democracy. Showing how each year the trend will get higher and higher.

Correct, check the numbers of the over forty and the elderly who showed up to vote... 

People were having their identity and private information exposed on social media, their kids, grandkids, their families, they brand you mainland sympathizers and it's open season, "locusts" they were called, like the police, doxxing was the rule of terror of the day. 

Quote

dox

/dɒks/

verb

INFORMAL

gerund or present participle: doxxing

1. search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the Internet, typically with malicious intent.

   "hackers and online vigilantes routinely dox both public and private figures"

~

Your kids are threatened, they are harassed by anonymous calls, your home could be firebombed as you slept with your love ones. 

If you know the houses Hong Kongers live in, you'll know the terror of getting caught in a fire is very real. 

You fellas can wax lyrical about freedom and democracy and all that. What I'm saying is this band of thugs is giving "democracy" nothing but a bad name, if you can't see that and still defends them, that just shows how shallow your definition of democracy is. 

I ain't buying your altruism , this ain't for Hong Kong with love from you, this is you guys making hell just cause you feel you can. 

~

4 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

The Falklands is a perfect example - but in support of my point, not yours. You have a group of people who vote to choose to stay a part of the UK. They are exercising their right to self-determination, which is why Argentina has no real argument.

Thanks for bringing it up.

What about the multitude of those Argetinians that disagree? 

Thanks for confirming your hypocrisy... 

~

I have no time for the rest of your propaganda, China is doing well with the well wishes of the Chinese people , that's kudos to them... 

You can't handle it and have to resort to lies, well, all the best to you...

1am and you fellas have fun echoing each other... Nite nite 

~