How will Impeachment play out?

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

I agree.  The Republicans have a golden opportunity here.  The Progs have given them a gift all wrapped up with a pretty bow.  Conservatives have a chance to send the Socialist Party of America back into the Stone Age, but I suspect that they will somehow screw the pooch.

Well we will certainly know in the very near future, one way or the other.

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, RavenHawk said:

Yeah, I know.  But that’s no reason to vote Socialist.  The Conservatives in Congress just need a leader that can encourage them to find a backbone.  Trump is such a leader.  One more term will cement it for a long time.  Once the Republicans learn how to standup to the Progs, governance will start working for the people once again.

Well if the British elections are anything to go by then yeah socialism is dead. But you realise that Biden is on the right leaning side of politics, So the biggest threat to Trump just got a boost. Still Trump must be on a high when Nancy Pelosi came out and endorsed his new trade deal with Mexico and Canada. 

Doesn't make a difference to the fact that the republicans have looked the other way to Trump breaking the rules with his lies. If thats your leader more power to ya. 

[Unusual Tournament]

8 hours ago, GlitterRose said:

They'll prove a whole bunch of stuff, but it won't matter, because the Senate won't do anything about it. 

 

its all tribal at the moment for the republicans and democrats. They all understand their fortunes are tied to Trump and so Trump it is. And thats how they'll vote. As far as the GOP is concerned, the lies have it. 

[DarkHunter]

37 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Its going to the senate. Relax, I'm sure the manchurian candidate is safe for now. Play some solitaire... 

So you just expect a bunch of Democrat representatives, approximately 40, to commit political suicide on sending the impeachment to the senate which will not find Trump guilty.  The best move Pelosi could do is get the required number to defect to the Republicans secretly so the whole show ends before any more damage to the Democratic party is done.

But it seems you would prefer for the Democrats to sacrifice themselves just so Trump will be impeached.

[Unusual Tournament]

Just now, DarkHunter said:

So you just expect a bunch of Democrat representatives, approximately 40, to commit political suicide on sending the impeachment to the senate which will not find Trump guilty.  The best move Pelosi could do is get the required number to defect to the Republicans secretly so the whole show ends before any more damage to the Democratic party is done.

But it seems you would prefer for the Democrats to sacrifice themselves just so Trump will be impeached.

It looks to me at least the democrats will send it to the senate. Its the least they can do. Its not like they lied or made up things. Its all fact and if i was a democrat id at the very least what to have this impeachment memorialised. Trump might have the numbers to defeat it but he couldn't fight it or counter it with any other evidence. Trump got away but because he did don't think that it makes him innocent. Just lucky and street smart for now. A bit like John Gotti. 

[Farmer77]

8 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

It’s the Left that controls the educational system here. 

Its the right who strangles it to death financially.

9 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Foxnews is far more fair and balanced than any of the MSM.

Just a few short years ago I actually agreed with this position. Hell at the beginning of the initial Russia thread you can actually find posts with me defending them.

The facts on the ground have changed however sir. They are now state media. Nothing but pure pro Trump propaganda. If youre genuinely interested ask and Ill provide multiple links and examples.

 

9 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

And if you think we are all just covering for him, don’t you think that would mean that the alternative is worse (mind you they would find a way to remove Pence as well)? 

I dont think you think you are just covering for him. I think people who you trusted, hell man WE trusted, have turned their backs on the constitution and are working so hard on keeping their audience scared and full of propaganda that folks like yourself who dont consume other media dont even understand the issues anymore. 

 

9 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

he simple fact is that you and the Left can’t get over that you lost in 2016 and you don’t have a snowball’s change in Hell to win in 2020. 

Siggghhhhh dont you get tired of repeating this ad nauseum? Do you not see how you have fallen for such simple sloganeering time and time again? All designed to make it so you become impervious to any factual data from those you are chanting about.

For the record I voted third party, I was over the fact that my candidate lost before I ever mailed my ballot in

[DarkHunter]

1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

It looks to me at least the democrats will send it to the senate. Its the least they can do. Its not like they lied or made up things. Its all fact and if i was a democrat id at the very least what to have this impeachment memorialised. Trump might have the numbers to defeat it but he couldn't fight it or counter it with any other evidence. Trump got away but because he did don't think that it makes him innocent. Just lucky and street smart for now. A bit like John Gotti. 

First off impeachment is purely a political matter and not a legal matter so arguing on if Trump will be found innocent or not and if he is guilty of crimes or not is essentially meaningless.  The Democrats never had the political might to successfully impeach Trump and took a massive gamble at the urging of the far left elements of the party that if they just started it that massive public opinion would back them and they would get the political might they need but it didnt happen.  

What will happen if impeachment does go to the senate is that the 40 Democrat representatives that have districts that voted overwhelmingly for Trump in 2016 will almost certainly lose their seats in 2020 and that is on top of what the Democrats flipped in 2018 and will lose in 2020.  If impeachment goes to the senate not only will Republicans regain the house but it will probably be about a 60 to 70 seat swing if not worse. 

The best move is to just accept that impeachment failed and do damage control to atleast have a chance at keeping a very small majority in the house.

[Farmer77]

3 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

The Democrats never had the political might to successfully impeach Trump and took a massive gamble at the urging of the far left elements of the party that if they just started it that massive public opinion would back them and they would get the political might they need but it didnt happen.  

What kind of lunacy is this? This is a fever dream directly from Mark Levin huh?

All democrats, especially the vulnerable freshmen whose op-ed forced Pelosi's hand, went into this knowing their seats were at risk for doing so but as one said "it feels like a 1776 kind of fight".

4 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

The best move is to just accept that impeachment failed and do damage control to atleast have a chance at keeping a very small majority in the house.

LOL sure NONE of them would face repercussions from the majority of Americans who believe impeachment is appropriate. Again lunacy.

[Farmer77]

13 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

hat has the electoral college got to do with this ? You stated that if Trump was re-elected, it would be down in part to propaganda from Fox News. I pointed out that Fox is a minor player in this, compared to the combined anti-Trump rhetoric of MSNBC, CNN etc etc. 

You dont seem to understand the tribal nature of foxnews voters. While the MSM splits (ballpark numbers) 60% of the viewership among themselves foxnews gets the other 40% AKA republican voters.  There is some very interesting polling regarding foxnews viewers you should look into.

 

[DarkHunter]

1 minute ago, Farmer77 said:

What kind of lunacy is this? This is a fever dream directly from Mark Levin huh?

All democrats, especially the vulnerable freshmen whose op-ed forced Pelosi's hand, went into this knowing their seats were at risk for doing so but as one said "it feels like a 1776 kind of fight".

The fact is that it would only take 19 democrats to defect to stop impeachment, 1 has already defected, 19 more are saying they are not sure if they will vote for impeachment or not with 48 having not said anything yet.  For a party that tends to be extremely unified on major political moves having so many being unsure with a decent amount not saying anything is not a good sign immediately before a vote.  

It wasnt all Democrats but the ones going in with the it feels like 1776 mentality are idiots and a lot of them will be losing their seat in 2020 with Trump still being president but pick this hill to die on instead of making a smart political move, people do love a good martyr story after all.

1 minute ago, Farmer77 said:

LOL sure NONE of them would face repercussions from the majority of Americans who believe impeachment is appropriate. Again lunacy.

You do understand that members of the house should only care about the opinions of people living in their district and not of the nation as the whole.  Concentrated liberal strong holds, like LA and New York city, are going to almost unanimously despise Trump and cause polls to be skewed towards supporting impeachment.  

[RoofGardener]

11 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

......

LOL sure NONE of them would face repercussions from the majority of Americans who believe impeachment is appropriate. Again lunacy.

This is probably a daft question, but have the American people been polled on the question ? I mean.. I know there are rolling polls on the Presidents overall approval rating, but has there been a poll explicitly on the topic of impeachment ? 

[Farmer77]

Just now, DarkHunter said:

You do understand that members of the house should only care about the opinions of people living in their district and not of the nation as the whole.  Concentrated liberal strong holds, like LA and New York city, are going to almost unanimously despise Trump and cause polls to be skewed towards supporting impeachment.  

No dude and this is the point I was trying to make. They, and all representatives, should care about the constitution above all else. I dont give a **** about the party and honestly during this conversation anyone who does is scum.

3 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

It wasnt all Democrats but the ones going in with the it feels like 1776 mentality are idiots and a lot of them will be losing their seat in 2020 with Trump still being president but pick this hill to die on instead of making a smart political move, people do love a good martyr story after all.

Once upon a time doing the right thing was a right wing principle. Now if its not the winning thing it gets mocked. Sad

[Farmer77]

3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

This is probably a daft question, but have the American people been polled on the question ? I mean.. I know there are rolling polls on the Presidents overall approval rating, but has there been a poll explicitly on the topic of impeachment ? 

Lots of them. I like looking at aggregates myself, this site does a good job of varying sources and explaining methodology : https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/

[DarkHunter]

2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

No dude and this is the point I was trying to make. They, and all representatives, should care about the constitution above all else. I dont give a **** about the party and honestly during this conversation anyone who does is scum.

Representatives are there to directly represent the will of the people, that is literally there only real job under the constitution.  Wanting them to ignore the people they represent in favor of upholding the constitution besides from being against the constitution is nothing more then trying to justify your hatred of the current US president.

4 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Once upon a time doing the right thing was a right wing principle. Now if its not the winning thing it gets mocked. Sad

Doing the right thing has never been a principle of any party in any country at any time beyond the occasional naive political freshman who either gets crushed at the next election or accepts reality fast.  Politics has and will always be about what wins and pretending that its anything else is just a lie to tell yourself to make you feel justified in what you're doing.

[Farmer77]

7 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Representatives are there to directly represent the will of the people, that is literally there only real job under the constitution.  Wanting them to ignore the people they represent in favor of upholding the constitution besides from being against the constitution is nothing more then trying to justify your hatred of the current US president.

......youre a bit ( WHOLE LOT)  off there in a swampy kind of way.

Quote

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
— U.S. Constitution, Article VI, clause 3

 

Quote

The oath used today has not changed since 1966 and is prescribed in Title 5, Section 3331 of the United States Code. It reads: “I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

https://history.house.gov/Institution/Origins-Development/Oath-of-Office/

 

7 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Doing the right thing has never been a principle of any party in any country at any time beyond the occasional naive political freshman who either gets crushed at the next election or accepts reality fast.  Politics has and will always be about what wins and pretending that its anything else is just a lie to tell yourself to make you feel justified in what you're doing.

Because I have "TDS" right? Or "irrational hatred" or how about the classic "cant accept the results of the election"?

Or perhaps im just one of those weirdos who actually cares about the constitution. Do you see the brainwashing you guys have undergone?

Lemme go ahead and preempt ya, no I didnt vote for Hillary or Obama so save the whatabouts.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Farmer77

[Gromdor]

3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Sigh!  I guess everything I said, as everything does with you, flew right over your head.  So let me rephrase.  It has less to do with the definition as it does with usage.  The concept was that climate change was ‘formed’ or ‘shaped’ by man.  Clear now?

Nobody used that term.  Academia and science are very precise with the words and terms they use.  They would not use a word that clearly means something else (and something silly).

Actually, I take that back.  I can see someone like Rush Limbaugh using an incorrect term like that and his listeners taking it as gospel.

On a similar note, impeachment means "Award a medal to", I heard it back in the seventies.  Everyone was using that word.  So don't forget to call your congressman and ask for impeachment because who wouldn't want Trump to get a medal?

[DarkHunter]

7 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

....youre a bit ( WHOLE LOT)  off there in a swampy kind of way.

For whatever inconceivable reason you are extremely focused on the oath to protect the constitution while ignoring the constitution itself.  

9 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Because I have "TDS" right? Or "irrational hatred" or how about the classic "cant accept the results of the election"?

Or perhaps im just one of those weirdos who actually cares about the constitution. Do you see the brainwashing you guys have undergone?

Lemme go ahead and preempt ya, no I didnt vote for Hillary or Obama so save the whatabouts.

You do have TDS, you go so extremely far out of your way to look for any fault in Trump that anything and everything Trump does ends up being an impeachable violation to you.  You can say you care about the constitution as much as you like to make yourself feel better but ultimately you dont care about the constitution but only about removing Trump and using the constitution as essentially a safety blanket to make yourself feel better and to make yourself feel that you are justified in your irrational hatred of one man.

[Farmer77]

6 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

For whatever inconceivable reason you are extremely focused on the oath to protect the constitution while ignoring the constitution itself.  

LOL sure says the guy that didnt know congress was supposed to defend the constitution. Forgive me if I dont defer to your scholarly opinion

6 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

You do have TDS, you go so extremely far out of your way to look for any fault in Trump that anything and everything Trump does ends up being an impeachable violation to you.  You can say you care about the constitution as much as you like to make yourself feel better but ultimately you dont care about the constitution but only about removing Trump and using the constitution as essentially a safety blanket to make yourself feel better and to make yourself feel that you are justified in your irrational hatred of one man.

 

Ever slowed down for just a second to think that perhaps the threat to the constitution is part of what makes Trump so despised?

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Farmer77

[DarkHunter]

3 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

LOL sure says the guy that didnt know congress was supposed to defend the constitution. Forgive me if I dont defer to your scholarly opinion

Way to play word games and try to twist everything.  I never said anything about congress defending the constitution all I pointed out was the role the representatives are supposed to play outlined in the constitution since you so desperately want them to ignore what they are supposed to do in favor of some nebulous concept of defending the constitution from some imaginary threat.

Interesting though in your mind that completely ignoring what they are supposed to do under the constitution in favor of them doing what you want is not considered a threat to the constitution that you claim to care so much about.

8 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Ever slowed down for just a second to think that perhaps the threat to the constitution is part of what makes Trump so despised?

What has Trump actually done to be a threat to the constitution, what real proof do you have of this.  So far everything you seem to have seems to be from your imagination or interpretation with no actual proof what so ever.

[Farmer77]

1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

Interesting though in your mind that completely ignoring what they are supposed to do under the constitution in favor of them doing what you want is not considered a threat to the constitution that you claim to care so much about.

The constitution specifically says they are supposed to defend it. Dude I actually posted the section where it says it , did you miss it?

1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

he Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
— U.S. Constitution, Article VI, clause 3

 

1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

What has Trump actually done to be a threat to the constitution, what real proof do you have of this.  So far everything you seem to have seems to be from your imagination or interpretation with no actual proof what so ever.

Well as a constitutionalist I was raised to be vigilant in order to keep our republic as instructed by the founding fathers. As such the following all make him a risk to the constitution - no not all are impeachable but all are potentially dangerous and worth watching, discussing  possibly investigating.

Keep in mind all of the following is cast in the factual light that before he ever ran for office he was a well known conman (trump U is the low hanging fruit) with connections to both domestic and international organized crime.

On day one he lied and told us to get used to "alternative facts" shortly thereafter his administration floated the idea of altering the first Amendment regarding the press. Thats a big ole red flashing light.

The attacks on the free press. As a former hard core militia type right winger I am just continually astonished that the right wing of all people dont understand the danger in a POTUS saying this:

Quote

"Just remember, what you are seeing and what you are reading is not what's happening," Trump said.

 Even if one wanted to agree with the sentiment they must understand the danger a POTUS saying such a thing represents to the republic. 

Quote

"Distrust naturally creates distrust, and by nothing is good will and kind conduct more speedily changed."

- John Jay

His attacks on the checks and balances began before his election as well. Claiming a judge couldnt rule fairly in the Trump U case because of his heritage honestly seems quaint at this point. Now he is claiming he has absolute immunity not just from prosecution while in office but even from investigation. Absolute immunity.  Is there anything more anathema to freedom in a representative republic than an executive who is above the law? Isnt that a monarch? 

Of course the bypassing of congress to get money for the wall (that he hasnt used yet) was "legal" but in a terrifyingly dictatorial kind of way. The precedent he set with that will screw us for generations to come regardless of who is POTUS.  Are you ready for the declaration of emergency that gives us all free healthcare and college education? That kind of short sighted thinking from the most powerful man in the world is a clear threat

A complete lack of regard for the rule of law as outlined nicely by the 10 examples of obstruction of justice in the Mueller report (and Trump U and his charity and in countless other cases). Of course you either dont know that or just had your mind made up by Bill Barr's disinformation campaign before the report was released.

Which brings up the next point which is maladministration.  While the founders , wisely IMO, decided to remove maladministration from the impeachable offenses in the Constitution the WH being an absolute **** show (Save the keystrokes it truly is - see the other world leaders laughing at his antics the other day) is clearly something that is a threat to the Constitution.

Trump's temporary Cabinet and vacancy-riddled government

Quote

"Acting gives you much greater flexibility. A lot easier to do things. So that's the way it is," Trump said Tuesday when asked about the number of acting officials in his administration.

Across the government, almost 40% of key leadership positions that require Senate confirmation are vacant, according to the Partnership for Public Service, a nonprofit focused on good governance.

 

Of course there is the nebulous ball that is Russia and the persistent question of why all roads lead to Russia with Trump. Even his impeachment is tied to his attempts to cover for them.

The Ukraine call really comes down to an understanding of the English language. Zelinsky said he wanted to buy javelins, in response Trump said I need you to do us a favor though.

Though:

1. however (indicating that a factor qualifies or imposes restrictions on what was said previously).

    

    

 

In addition to being the definition of "quid pro quo" Its also a really good example of his disregard for the rule of law. He was told the head of the FBI he appointed said it was illegal to accept foreign aid in an election. Trump said "hes wrong" then the head of the FEC said "its illegal"............. and then he went ahead and did it anyways.

 

Sadly this is very far from an exhaustive list but thats enough that we can at least agree this administration is abnormal enough to keep an extra eye on right?

Now you certainly can isolate each and every one of these instances and find justifications for each that seem to make sense in a vacuum.......ok well for some, maybe.....but in totality the man is the living embodiment of the Founding Fathers' worse fears.

http://www.leaderu.com/humanities/foundersview.html

Quote

Publius in Federalist 57: "The aim of every political Constitution is or ought to be first to obtain for rulers, men who possess most wisdom to discern, and most virtue to pursue the common good of the society; and in the next place, to take the most effectual precautions for keeping them virtuous, whilst they continue to hold their public trust."

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/14/732571895/fear-of-foreign-interference-in-u-s-elections-dates-from-nations-founding

Quote

No. 68 in this series (usually attributed to the prolific Alexander Hamilton) said, "The desire [of] foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our counsels" was a source of corruption and "one of the most deadly adversaries of republican government."

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Farmer77

[ian hacktorp]

Still trying to wrap yourself in the Constitution, eh Farmer?  Lol...

Edited December 15, 2019 by hacktorp

[+DieChecker]

Fox News Poll: Trump job approval ticks up, views on impeachment steady

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-trump-job-approval-ticks-up-views-on-impeachment-steady

Quote

Currently, 45 percent of voters approve of the job Trump’s doing, up from 42 percent in late October. Over half, 53 percent, disapprove. That lands the president almost exactly where he started the year, as 43 percent approved and 54 percent disapproved in January.

Good job Pelosi, you swayed exactly ZERO people with your court drama so far.

 

[RavenHawk]

8 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Nobody used that term.  Academia and science are very precise with the words and terms they use.  They would not use a word that clearly means something else (and something silly).

Actually, I take that back.  I can see someone like Rush Limbaugh using an incorrect term like that and his listeners taking it as gospel.

On a similar note, impeachment means "Award a medal to", I heard it back in the seventies.  Everyone was using that word.  So don't forget to call your congressman and ask for impeachment because who wouldn't want Trump to get a medal?

You still don’t get it do you?  No you don’t.  Early on academia, science, and the politically PC types struggled to find the precise word to use for propaganda purposes (Eisenhower’s warning).  It had used one, then the other and combined with ‘global’ and ‘warming’ but eventually settled on just climate change.  Scientific preciseness usually concedes to PC.  During that process, I took exception to their little process.  I understood what their ploy was and I started using the one term sarcastically ever since.  I use it so that the Left will never forget what they are trying to do.  I guess unfortunately for me, that is what the Left does best and that is forget little things like that.  I’ve explained this three different ways.  A rational person by now would state that they understand where I’m coming from and why I use the term and reply “gotchya” and move on.  But you’re going to continue to try to correct me when there is nothing to correct.  You have to accept that there are things that you were never aware of, especially before the internet.  I will continue to use the term and if you don’t like it, well tough!

[RavenHawk]

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

This is probably a daft question, but have the American people been polled on the question ? I mean.. I know there are rolling polls on the Presidents overall approval rating, but has there been a poll explicitly on the topic of impeachment ? 

Yes, there are but like with all polls, the struggle to understand what they mean becomes frustrating.  There are aberrations and trends that have to be considered.  I.e. most Trump supporters probably still don’t participate.  You have to consider the sampling size, the demographics, and the structure of the questions.  Some polls ask if you want to see Trump impeached and others ask if you want him impeached *AND* removed.  Those usually come out pretty much the same numbers, so that leads to a lot of confusion since impeachment and removal are two different things.  Which begs the question, do most people really understand the process? 

 

I think most people are just for impeachment because they have a sense of fair play and justice.  Because impeachment will mean a real trial affording the President Due Process.  Which means his right to confront the whistleblower.  I think most people want to see who he is?  Yes, we have a name out there but legally, he has not been identified.  He must come forward and be counted.  Plus, I think most people want to see what the MSM has been covering up for a long time.  Calling the whole cadre like Hunter Biden, James Comey, etc. will set the dominoes to go.  With the Durham and Barr reports pending, this could be a hot summer.  Progs will be too busy dogging daggers to do anything else.  Trump will be on the offensive.  And I think people want to see the Republicans find a backbone.  This embarrassment of the Left needs to end and the only way to do it is put them in their place.  This would be the best-case scenario.

 

However, this still has to make it out of the House and then it’ll have to get past McConnell in the Senate.  Then those first few witnesses will determine how it goes.  My sense is that it will fizzle out before too long.  And then the Progs will be back at it for the spring.  Al Green will impeach him for something else.

[RavenHawk]

2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Fox News Poll: Trump job approval ticks up, views on impeachment steady

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-trump-job-approval-ticks-up-views-on-impeachment-steady

Quote

Currently, 45 percent of voters approve of the job Trump’s doing, up from 42 percent in late October. Over half, 53 percent, disapprove. That lands the president almost exactly where he started the year, as 43 percent approved and 54 percent disapproved in January.

Good job Pelosi, you swayed exactly ZERO people with your court drama so far.

And how many Trump supporters still do not participate in polls?  I know I never do (just the one that counts).