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RavenHawk

How will Impeachment play out?

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RAyMO
4 hours ago, and then said:

HOW did he abuse his power?  Refusing to be specific tends to make you look guilty of partisanship rather than having actual evidence of his wrongdoing.  Honest, unbiased people would just admit that.  I'll say it again... not one witness ever testified that they saw or heard a QPQ OR evidence he demanded bribes.  The investigation into corruption was not contingent on him doing anything.  In fact, the funds were released and there was no promise of an investigation beforehand nor did any investigation begin quietly.  The accusations lack proof of any kind that he did ANYTHING WRONG.

I believe this all comes back to a group of partisans who refuse to accept his legitimacy and who feel he needs to be removed for that reason.  That's not the way our system works.

So in your world rudy, sonderland and others were working without presidential knowledge. How come then he knew to reference the investigations in his phone call. 

 

As for evidence that was well demonstrated at the inquiry. Just need rudy to say yes he told me. 

As for being partisan yes I am. I have been aware of trump for a very long time. My opinion of him has not changed. 

 

Eta as to why I think he abused his power. I have posted on that a couple of times in other threads. That you do not accept my reasoning, I am already aware.  I believe your president abused his power to get a foreign president to carry out and publicise an investigation into a political opponent for no other reason than political gain. Off course, there are conspiracy theories some produce to explain why he did it, but sadly 'why' is it not an excuse. The ends don't justify the means. 

Edited by RAyMO
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skliss
4 hours ago, bee said:

 

I wonder if the main reason that Biden is standing for Presidential Candidate is to give him immunity from
Ukraine investigation - and by association give anyone else (in the Dem Party) cover who has been involved
in corrupt practices in the country - from helping to engineer the coup in 2014... to benefiting financially...

He does appear the be the weakest link in the chain... so in usual reverse reality fashion he is presented
as the strongest... but surely he is well passed his Sell By Date  (in terms of mental fitness not age)

and maybe he will be taken out of the equation somehow at some point when his usefullness runs out...
and Bloomberg? can take his place as favourite to lead the Democrats into the 2020 election,,,?

 

  

He did get in really late so your point deserves some consideration. It also needs pointed out that Hunter Biden is the person who worked for the company that needs investigating. He's not running for office and is not a political rival of Trumps. Not only that, but for all we know he was unaware of the corruption being committed. So why is everyone up in arms about the corruption being investigated? We should be diligent about handing out money to them, right? If the Biden isnt involved, shouldnt he welcome a look into it? It almost seems like this is a huge distraction to make us forget about the whole reason this came up in the 1st place.

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skliss
42 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Except she didn't attack Baron Trump.

Then why did she apologize for it?

This is a woman who has said on tape that she crosses the street so she doesn't have to walk in front if a Trump hotel. Does that sound like a person who can rationally or objectively conclude anything about Trump? 

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ExpandMyMind
6 minutes ago, skliss said:

Then why did she apologize for it?

This is a woman who has said on tape that she crosses the street so she doesn't have to walk in front if a Trump hotel. Does that sound like a person who can rationally or objectively conclude anything about Trump? 

Sounds like a joke but point taken. If only there were other experts testifying or something who might have validated her testimony. I suppose you'll never know.

She apologised because of the optics; because of how it was being spun. Also, she probably shouldn't have mentioned his name at all, even as a way to make a point, regardless if Baron was or was not the target of her point (which he obviously wasn't).

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lightly

 Trump will be impeached.   Trump will remain in office and become an even bigger hero to his 'base'.   I just hope this mess won't secure him another 4 years on the Throne.

  I seriously suspect he may gather his marbles and stomp off the playground before that happens however?  

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RavenHawk
4 hours ago, RAyMO said:

That he abused his position of power is enough for me.

That’s not it.  Your hatred for the man is enough to call it an abuse of power.  That is obvious.

 

Despite what he thinks the president is not or at least should not be an omni powerful immune to all contraints.

No, he doesn’t think he is immune to all constraints, but he is resistant to actions of Congress, especially when it comes to him doing his duty.

 

As for your second point - does the US require evidence that a blackmailer or briber actually said the words to convict him / her? Deeds speak louder than words.

This is a perfect ruse.  The Progs call it a crime and all those terms become toxic.  Well, let’s just set the record straight here.  Of course it is QPQ!  Of course it is bribery!  Of course it is extortion!  This is what a President does to get things from other nations.  It’s not the only thing,but it is a power of the President.  What’s next, saying that whenever he breathes that he is extorting oxygen from the air?  Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

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RAyMO
7 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Well, let’s just set the record straight here.  Of course it is QPQ!  Of course it is bribery!  Of course it is extortion!  This is what a President does to get things from other nations.

Which the US is probably happy with, if it explicitly furthers national policy. But in this instance the demand, including making investigations public before they even started, was for no other reason than to get political capital on an opponent. By forcing the Ukraine president to publicly announce said investigation trump was also  inviting foreign interference in the US 2020 election.

all the claptrap as to why, is retrospective 'covering ones a--'

Edited by RAyMO
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Saru

Thread cleaned

Keep it civil please folks.

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Cookie Monster
3 hours ago, lightly said:

 Trump will be impeached.   Trump will remain in office and become an even bigger hero to his 'base'.   I just hope this mess won't secure him another 4 years on the Throne.

  I seriously suspect he may gather his marbles and stomp off the playground before that happens however?  

The worst thing that the Democrats could possibly do, they have moved to do.

In my opinion the biggest drama queen on the planet is about to become the biggest drama queen in the history of the human race. He will love this so much I suspect that his head might just explode. I look forward to his speeches over the coming days as he tries to bait and gaud the Democrats even further. It is going to be funny to watch.

When the impeachment fails the Democrats will have done so much damage to their reputation as a political party that no one will ever trust a word they say again. They are the most undemocratic and unprofessional cry babies I have ever seen. 

And I predict this will result in Trump getting a landslide majority during the next election as all those voters sat in the middle with no affiliation towards the left or right will turn from the Democrats out of shear disgust.

The Democrats have fallen into the ultimate trap. They are giving the US drama queen sat in the White House the ultimate drama! lol.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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Tatetopa

Some say the Democrats will never be trusted to tell the truth again.  That is also true of the Republicans.  Anybody who has watched any of this will see a control of the narrative by the Democrats, sometimes heavy handed and not all above board.  Not always trustworthy.  Some have also taken note of the fact that the Republicans have either attacked witnesses, said for any number of silly reasons he didn't do it or it wasn't a crime.   Neither party appears to be the obvious choice for the ones to control the most powerful nation on earth. 

Diversion seems to be the other tactic.  Make Hunter Biden testify!  What is he going to say, that he got a cushy job for a lot of money for offering advice and never even had to show up for a board meeting in the Ukraine?  

Rooting out corruption is exactly what we want the Ukraine to do.  So let them do it.  

For the President of the Ukraine to say publicly that they are investigating Joe and Hunter Biden does very little  to actually serve the ends of fighting  corruption  in the Ukraine.  It is a big favor for President Trump.

For the president of the Ukraine to say they are looking for the DNC server because Ukraine might have been the country that meddled in US elections is suicide for their country.  It sure is what Russia wants.

If the President truly wanted the Ukrainian President to make those announcements,, he is not helping the Ukraine or the United States.  He is helping himself.

 

Maybe the deep state and the Democrats  are quietly celebrating a small victory.  President Trump got caught.  He had to back off. The aid needed by Ukraine was released.  The announcement was not made.  For a while longer, they will not be defeated by Russia.  Some people probably consider that an accomplishment. 

 

 

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bee

 

Nancy Pelosi has a heart full of love... ........ who knew.....?

As the Impeachment is playing out and the pressure is getting greater on the individuals
involved.... emotions are running high and one can only imagine what discussions behind the
scenes are like..... they are probably all on sleeping tablets and prozac ...

Just stumbled on this and Pelosi is having a melt down because someone said something
about hate...?

LOSING IT: Nancy Pelosi BERATES Journalist Over DEEP HATRED For President Trump

:unsure2:
 

 

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Buzz_Light_Year
36 minutes ago, bee said:

 

Nancy Pelosi has a heart full of love... ........ who knew.....?

As the Impeachment is playing out and the pressure is getting greater on the individuals
involved.... emotions are running high and one can only imagine what discussions behind the
scenes are like..... they are probably all on sleeping tablets and prozac ...

Just stumbled on this and Pelosi is having a melt down because someone said something
about hate...?

LOSING IT: Nancy Pelosi BERATES Journalist Over DEEP HATRED For President Trump

:unsure2:
 

 

I loved the part where she brought up being and catholic and not hating anyone. Especially since the the Vatican Chief Justice made the statement that she should be denied communion.

This event probably had her headed for a 5th of holy water. :lol:

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skliss
7 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Sounds like a joke but point taken. If only there were other experts testifying or something who might have validated her testimony. I suppose you'll never know.

She apologised because of the optics; because of how it was being spun. Also, she probably shouldn't have mentioned his name at all, even as a way to make a point, regardless if Baron was or was not the target of her point (which he obviously wasn't).

If you saw the tape of her talking about crossing the street and the disgust on her face and in her voice when asked if she would stay at that hotel you'd know it wasn't a joke. 

Her bringing up Baron Trump just goes to show how they talk among themselves....they are so used to being in a world where everyone agrees with them the forget themselves sometimes.  And if you don't mean it, dont bother apologizing...it's meaningless. She wasnt sorry she brought up an innocent, just sorry she got called out for it.

As for these people not being objective, they've ruined their own credibility. The only one who was objective and truthful was the Republican pick, Turley, who despite the fact that he doesn't like Trump or his policies and didnt vote for him, was at least honest.

As for the other 3, Prof. Pamela Karlan is a Democratic donor who suggested the 2016 election could be “illegitimate.”
She first raised the prospect of impeaching President Trump in 2016—before he even took office. She’s also argued against the Trump Administration in court.

Prof. Noah Feldman has spent nearly 3 years calling for impeachment—for any reason you can imagine. Less than two months after Inauguration Day, Feldman was arguing for impeachment . . . because of a tweet.
He even called for impeachment because he disliked the President’s Constitutional use of the pardon power.

Prof. Michael Gerhardt spent years working for Democratic officials and campaigns, repeatedly helping Democratic senators fight to block the appointment of conservative judges and justices—including now-Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

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and then
8 hours ago, RAyMO said:

As for evidence that was well demonstrated at the inquiry.

WHAT was demonstrated?  You can't be specific because there WERE no crimes committed.  This has always been about hating Trump and throwing accusations that the media repeat.  The thing is... people don't give a damn about the media any longer.  Their ability to seem serious and to convince people was destroyed in their blatant attacks on Trump.  Frankly, people who still get their news from any of the MSM, Fox included, aren't very bright...

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ExpandMyMind
1 hour ago, skliss said:

If you saw the tape of her talking about crossing the street and the disgust on her face and in her voice when asked if she would stay at that hotel you'd know it wasn't a joke. 

I don't blame her. Trump is without a doubt been the worst President in your entire history. His name will forever be a black mark of your country. I can't wait until you eejits finally wake up.

1 hour ago, skliss said:

Her bringing up Baron Trump just goes to show how they talk among themselves

No, it doesn't. it just shows that she's intelligent enough to make a poignant comparison.

1 hour ago, skliss said:

As for these people not being objective, they've ruined their own credibility. The only one who was objective and truthful was the Republican pick, Turley, who despite the fact that he doesn't like Trump or his policies and didnt vote for him, was at least honest.

Sure. Except the entirety of his opinions have been debunked by... Wait for it... Himself. That's right, as recently as 2014 he was talking about how a President (in reference to Clinton, to be exact) doesn't need to have committed a crime in order to be Impeached. This guys with 'no dog in the fight' went against everything he's been putting onto paper since the 90s.

One of the other people testifying was asked about why he was against Trump being impeached (he had written about it previously) and his reply was, 'That was before Ukraine'. Now that's an objective witness.

1 hour ago, skliss said:

As for the other 3, Prof. Pamela Karlan is a Democratic donor who suggested the 2016 election could be “illegitimate.”
She first raised the prospect of impeaching President Trump in 2016—before he even took office. She’s also argued against the Trump Administration in court.

I'm just guessing, but it could have something to do with his admission of sexual assault, his outward racism, his fraudulent campaign, his willingness to accept Russian help in the election, or maybe a hundred other reasons why an established fraudster (actually convicted of fraud) should not be in charge of your country.

But, hey, I'm sure she just really hates Republicans or something.

1 hour ago, skliss said:

Prof. Noah Feldman has spent nearly 3 years calling for impeachment—for any reason you can imagine. Less than two months after Inauguration Day, Feldman was arguing for impeachment . . . because of a tweet.
He even called for impeachment because he disliked the President’s Constitutional use of the pardon power.

Honestly, if Obama had Tweeted half the stuff that Trump had, then he'd have been impeached long ago. Trump is a literal criminal who has done everything from undermine the entire US system to throwing out death threats to US citizens. 

1 hour ago, skliss said:

Prof. Michael Gerhardt spent years working for Democratic officials and campaigns, repeatedly helping Democratic senators fight to block the appointment of conservative judges and justices—including now-Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

Your Senate is packing lower-level courts with partisan, unqualified hacks. In fact, it's almost all the Senate has done for three years. This is after blocking appointments for years during Obama's administration, including a Supreme Court pick. You can't imagine it right now, and maybe you wouldn't even care, but this will have a massive effect on the quality of your country. I'm sure he recognises this.

None of their perceived partisanship can take away from the basic facts. 'If what Trump did in Ukraine isn't impeachable, then nothing is impeachable'. You've basically enabled a King and ripped up your Constitution to do so. Well done.

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F3SS
25 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I can't wait until you eejits finally wake up

:td: 

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F3SS

Andthen, skliss... You should stop giving these guys the time of day. I know it's hard but they hate you and can't be civil. They don't even try to anymore. 

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Cookie Monster
14 minutes ago, F3SS said:

:td: 

The hardcore Democrat supporters love the attempts to impeach Trump which their hardcore counterparts on the right are outraged by.

Sat in the middle are the ordinary unbiased public with no affiliation to either. They simply turn up and vote at elections based on who they think will do the best job at the time. How do the Democrats actually think they come across to these people right now? Are they so deluded they really cannot see they have destroyed their chances of winning the 2020 election?

Trump has worked wonders on the economy (the most important thing that determines if a leader gets re-elected) and he gets things done. Along the way he has been bullied, harassed, defamed, and has had attempts made to impeach him. To the ordinary unbiased public the Democrats have and still are behaving appallingly. 

Trump is a very strong leader and the public can very easily uncover the long list of fake media stories about him on the internet. The media and Democrats have destroyed their credibility. All they do is lie and distort about everything. And to top it off they are trying to impeach Trump simply because they dont like him. Shameful!

The Democrats are going to get a right kick-in at the next election. Trump will get his 2nd term and 60% of the US population are going to be laughing at those left-wing morons again.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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ExpandMyMind
43 minutes ago, F3SS said:

:td: 

You will, eventually. It might be five years or twenty, but history will be on your side as much as it was the always-Nixons. Less so, actually.

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Farmer77
16 hours ago, and then said:

Take the 5th and look guilty or testify under oath.

So in your eyes mulvaney , Trump, pompeo etc look guilty for not testifying ? 

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Agent0range
2 hours ago, and then said:

 You can't be specific because there WERE no crimes committed. 

Specifics?  It's illegal for the President to withhold aid approved by congress.

Quote

In addition, any delay of funding potentially implicates the Impoundment Control Act (ICA). Passed in the wake of President Richard Nixon’s refusal to spend lawfully appropriated funding, the ICA restricts the circumstances in which a president can defer spending funds. The ICA’s definition of a “deferral” is broad:

“deferral of budget authority” includes—

(A) withholding or delaying the obligation or expenditure of budget authority (whether by establishing reserves or otherwise) provided for projects or activities; or

(B) any other type of Executive action or inaction which effectively precludes the obligation or expenditure of budget authority, including authority to obligate by contract in advance of appropriations as specifically authorized by law;

https://www.justsecurity.org/67489/trumps-hold-on-ukrainian-military-aid-was-illegal/

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Farmer77
18 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

What will some of the first witnesses be?  Hunter Biden, Joe Biden, the “whistleblower”, Jerry Nadler (just play Nadler’s testimony from 1998), Adam Schiff.  They may invite Jonathan Turley back.  He pretty much devastated the Dem position today.  Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

I was actually surprised to see the GOP bring up Nadlers words considering the gold mine of recordings regarding congresssional oversight during the Obama years and some gems from the Clinton impeachment as well. I wouldn't expect them to dive too deeply into that tactic or at all anymore even. 

Edited by Farmer77

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Golden Duck
16 hours ago, and then said:

If they follow through and vote to Impeach, do you believe the witnesses the R's would call would actually risk perjury?

 

16 hours ago, and then said:

Only if you consider lying to a court to be a moot point.  My guess is they'll plead the 5th and let their 5th column continue to try to cover for them.  Funny thing is... more and more Americans have seen and are seeing this media for the propaganda outlet it has become.  

Those on the Left seem to think that once they get rid of Trump, everything will settle back down and they'll be able to tell smooth lies and be accepted again.  Not gonna happen.  They used nullification to ignore rules and laws with which they disagreed.  That is now a permanent option for all of us.  The Feds don't have near enough cells to stop this "resistance".

Let's go back to where I first entered this topic.

Some anonymous guy on the internet gives an ephemeral opinion that any POTUS can defer spending "for any number of reasons".  (I reserve strong apprehension against him saying the same thing about  Obama.)  I pointed out that the opinions, of legal experts and professionals, concerning the Presient's obligations under the Impoundment Control Act have been published.

There's a few steps missing to get to your, otherwise non sequitur, scenario of witnesses perjuring themselves.  How does that relate to the requirement to communicate any deferral to Congress?

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skliss
1 hour ago, F3SS said:

Andthen, skliss... You should stop giving these guys the time of day. I know it's hard but they hate you and can't be civil. They don't even try to anymore. 

Especially the King of Hyperbole ...I do skim him usually and one I ignore altogether. I'll try...lol:D

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Tatetopa

Meanwhile the world moves on.

 North Korea responded to President Trump's calling Kim Rocket Man again by bringing up dotard again.  They tell us to be ready for a Christmas present.   These guys don't seem ready to negotiate in good faith. They want US South Korea maneuvers cancelled, we did that,  They want sanctions removed.  If we do that, they will change the goalposts and ask for something else.

NATO allies seem to be having a laugh at Trump's expense.  Dangerous and stupid.  He could well end US participation.  They better be working on a Plan B

China may be stubborn and drag out negotiations.  If they think they will get a better deal when Trump is more desperate for a win, they will hold out even if they are suffering too.

Cartels aren't going away.  The opioid problem isn't getting solved.

It would be easy enough to blame the House, since they are currently focused on impeachment.  However, they did manage to pass a stack of bills that are sitting on Mitch McConnell's desk.  What has the Senate been doing?

 

 

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