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How will Impeachment play out?


RavenHawk

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2 minutes ago, acidhead said:

:D

 

For the dumb.... no offense

Trump is saying:

Jeff you are a traitor.. thanks for the vote.. you'll easily be replaced

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2 minutes ago, acidhead said:

For the dumb.... no offense

Trump is saying:

Jeff you are a traitor.. thanks for the vote.. you'll easily be replaced

Some wit on CNN or MSNBC sounded off in mock outrage that Van Drew was behaving in self interest  :w00t:  Imagine that...

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8 hours ago, and then said:

So you agree that she's a political figure?  Noted.

Nope. Or well maybe.  She certainly has a cause although it is not  related to our politics or our power structure.  She is a true outsider to our power structure.  I think my statement says non-political doesn't it? 

But in broadest terms most human interactions that are  not focused on weaponry are political.  So if you persuade somebody to do something, or try to, that is political.  She tries to champion her cause. The only other person of fame I know with Aspergers just won the Nobel Prize in Physics.  At least in the TV universe. So I won't sell her short. 

So where does that lead?  Open target for insults? Exploitation by elitist handlers? 

If you could go back to your imperfect 16 year old self and see the US of today in a vision (which I am betting would trouble you)  Would you try to convince anyone that Liberals were going to screw everything up in thirty years or would you just keep playing tether ball and Asteroids? 

 

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10 hours ago, F3SS said:

The reason people don't understand things the way you do is because wether you're a rabid right winger or a rabid left winger you're always thinking in extremes. The fact that you remember the selfie stick thing as a FIRESTORM is an example of that. I didn't remember it at all until right now and I can only remember it as a short lived news blurb.

 

Short lived blurb for days on every right wing media outlet :lol:

Idk I guess if you feel firetorm is too strong of a word I'm ok with that but it really was quite the response. From foxnews: "what would reagan say?" , "Lowering the dignity of the office" 

 Take a look it's funny:

Like I said above it's just a great example of how far we've come from it hurting the office when Obama used a selfie stick to .....meh the most powerful man in the world picking on kids and hurling insults at everyone is cool . 

 

Edited by Farmer77
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22 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Short lived blurb for days on every right wing media outlet :lol:

Idk I guess if you feel firetorm is too strong of a word I'm ok with that but it really was quite the response. From foxnews: "what would reagan say?" , "Lowering the dignity of the office" 

 Take a look it's funny:

Like I said above it's just a great example of how far we've come from it hurting the office when Obama used a selfie stick to .....meh the most powerful man in the world picking on kids and hurling insults at everyone is cool . 

 

Maybe I'm not as susceptible to sensationalism as you think then. You're always saying how I and others just lap up every word on FOX. Seems to have a greater effect on you.

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8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

So where does that lead?  Open target for insults? Exploitation by elitist handlers? 

It leads to the possibility of some really bad behavior online.  Remember Nick Sandman?  Same kind of situation except her parents seem to have approved of this up front.  The Left is hiding behind her because they can raise hell at anyone who doesn't bow before her slightly crazed anger.  

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8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

She certainly has a cause although it is not  related to our politics or our power structure.

Really?  And all of this time I thought ANTIFA was deeply "related to our politics or our power structure".

Image result for greta antifa

How do you explain her family being photographed wearing extreme, Left-wing terrorist organization T-shirts?

Edited by hacktorp
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On 12/15/2019 at 12:54 AM, and then said:

He's finally gotten to the end of his patience with these hacks.  What Trump is doing is giving a coequal branch of our government, the old middle finger salute.  If he continued cooperating, he'd eventually become totally neutered as a president.  NOWHERE in our Founding documents is there any mention of Congress having the authority to force the president to do anything

The Constitution says and the Supreme Court has upheld that both Houses of Congress have the right to subpoena documents from the executive branch.  If Congress, in its oversight function, discovers something that requires a legislative fix, then that means that all documents subpoenaed in an oversight activity are, in truth, legislative in nature.  The argument that subpoenas can only be issued pursuant to legislative activities is invalid.

Doug

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9 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

The Constitution says and the Supreme Court has upheld that both Houses of Congress have the right to subpoena documents from the executive branch. 

Sorry, nowhere in the Constitution does it say the Executive branch is legally obligated to provide anything subpoenaed by Congress.  Nowhere.

If Congress doesn't get what they want, they can sue.

Edited by hacktorp
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On 12/14/2019 at 11:52 PM, RavenHawk said:

He doesn’t have to.  In our system, the accused is innocent until proven guilty.  To date, that requirement has not been met.

This is not a criminal trial.  The President can be impeached and removed from office by a majority vote of the House, followed by a two-thirds supermajority of the Senate.  Criminal trials don't do that.  The issue of Trump's criminal liability will be decided after he leaves office, whether now, 2021 or 2025.

You're right that Trump doesn't have to present evidence, but that only means the House proceeds on the basis of the evidence it has.  It does not need his input to proceed.

Doug

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2 minutes ago, hacktorp said:

Sorry, nowhere in the Constitution does it say the Executive branch is legally obligated to provide everything subpoenaed by Congress.  Nowhere.

If Congress doesn't get what they want, they can sue.

There is a vague exception for Executive Privilege.  It's not in the Constitution, but it is a courtesy that has always been extended to the executive branch.  And you're right, if Congress doesn't get its way, it can sue.

Doug

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1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

There is a vague exception for Executive Privilege.  It's not in the Constitution, but it is a courtesy that has always been extended to the executive branch.  And you're right, if Congress doesn't get its way, it can sue.

Doug

It's starting to look like they're going to do both. Impeach now with the available evidence while still pursuing the information which is being obstructed from them. 

Wouldn't it be something if he was impeached and acquitted in the Senate on the current charges but then impeached again if the SCOTUS eventually rules his lackeys must testify 

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2 hours ago, hacktorp said:

Really?  And all of this time I thought ANTIFA was deeply "related to our politics or our power structure".

Image result for greta antifa

How do you explain her family being photographed wearing extreme, Left-wing terrorist organization T-shirts?

I've never seen these before. Good find. Hey, isn't that Greta Thunberg? TIME's most influential person of the year?

Like I said, Greta and the "grass roots" climate change parades that followed as as organic as concrete. It seems most people would rather believe in a comfortable lie than an uncomfortable truth.

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2 hours ago, hacktorp said:

Really?  And all of this time I thought ANTIFA was deeply "related to our politics or our power structure".

Image result for greta antifa

How do you explain her family being photographed wearing extreme, Left-wing terrorist organization T-shirts?

Well I know one thing my family is getting for Xmas !!! Thanks hacktorp :tu: :lol:

That shirt is rad. 

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21 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

It's starting to look like they're going to do both. Impeach now with the available evidence while still pursuing the information which is being obstructed from them. 

Wouldn't it be something if he was impeached and acquitted in the Senate on the current charges but then impeached again if the SCOTUS eventually rules his lackeys must testify 

Seems like McConnell is going to block the witnesses with first hand knowledge of the charges (Bolton, Mulvaney, etc.) because the house blocked witnesses that have no knowledge of the charges (Biden, etc.)  https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/17/politics/mitch-mcconnell-response-schumer-impeachment/index.html

The irony is they will still probably claim that everything is hearsay because no first hand witnesses testified. 

 

Meanwhile Giuliani is back on TV talking about how the president is very supportive of his efforts to dig up political dirt in Ukraine. https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/17/politics/giuliani-trump-dirt-ukraine-yovanovitch/index.html

Weird how he isn't mentioning anything about combating corruption there.........

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30 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

It's starting to look like they're going to do both. Impeach now with the available evidence while still pursuing the information which is being obstructed from them. 

Wouldn't it be something if he was impeached and acquitted in the Senate on the current charges but then impeached again if the SCOTUS eventually rules his lackeys must testify 

How to confuse the issue....

Doug

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31 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

It's starting to look like they're going to do both. Impeach now with the available evidence while still pursuing the information which is being obstructed from them. 

Wouldn't it be something if he was impeached and acquitted in the Senate on the current charges but then impeached again if the SCOTUS eventually rules his lackeys must testify 

  Honestly, I think the Democrats grand plan (if they even have one) is to catch the Republican members of congress in a grand lie to cover up for Trump, right before the election.  If they already know what the people being ordered not to testify are going to say before hand and can prove it with documentation, then doing things this way would help clean out congress of at least half the liars.  Republicans seem to only have Trump tunnel vision for their defense of this whole issue, but the actual charge is a conspiracy by the bulk of the Republicans in congress to cover up for his crimes.

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2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Well I know one thing my family is getting for Xmas !!! Thanks hacktorp :tu: :lol:

That shirt is rad. 

But...but...why do you hate your family? :(

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On 12/13/2019 at 9:43 PM, Manwon Lender said:

I think your right they will not convict him under any circumstances, but the part about being Co-Equal and that he can obstruct Congress anytime he feels like it may change. I saw something today on the news about that very issue being sent to the Supreme Court, now what they chose to do about it may be nothing or they could set a precedent that changes everything. It's hard to say what they will do, they may not even look at it.

When I say co-equal, I'm not saying a president can do as he pleases with no accountability.  That's what the Founders attempted to avoid by having 3 legs to the stool of government.  They intentionally set it up as an adversarial arrangement where all 3 would vie for power and would provide checks and balances against overreach.  

My honest assessment of this process today is that it's all about a raw power grab.  The Left did not win in 2016 and has been relentless in trying not just to impede a president's agenda - that happened during Obama's time and in many other president's tenures.  It's been more than that.  The evidence is beginning to come in that Obama's upper echelon leaders in the FBI, CIA and DoJ actively worked to keep Trump from that job.  I fear that we've become so divided that even if quantifiable, verifiable evidence is found that proves that crimes were committed by people in high places like director of FBI or CIA, people will pass it off to partisanship and either ignore it or refuse to hold the wrongdoers accountable.  If we keep on down THAT road, we will lose our country.

I think we are witnessing an effort from forces outside the country, most likely in Europe, to weaken America so that a globalist agenda can ascend.  Americans fighting each other helps no one but our enemies.

As to the Supreme Court, they also represent a co-equal branch and have no vested authority that is superior to the Executive or Legislative.  They are there to settle disputes over laws that do not comply with the Constitution.  If a USSC were to rule in a way that was obviously political and clearly against the Constitution it would be devastating to the nation.  What I'm thinking of here is a specific ruling that attempted to say, nullify the Second Amendment or the Electoral College.  For either of those to be abolished or even fundamentally weakened or altered, it requires a prescribed process that must be followed.

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As the slow motion train wreck continues:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-rules-committee-crime-2020-election-mcgovern

This Congressman isn't the only voice I've heard trying to make the case that if Trump isn't removed there can be no guarantee of a "fair" election in 2020.  Folks... do you see where this kind of rhetoric will lead us?  When the media pick up this mantra - as they surely will - the divide will continue to worsen and after next November we will see anger and disbelief over whatever result the ballot brings.

I saw a Tweet this morning by some director out in La La Land that if the Senate acquits and Trump is re-elected we can expect to see the same kind of massive rioting that's going on in India now.  I'd hope that even the most ardent anti-Trump types would realize that violence will only beget more violence.  The probability is that Democrat controlled cities would fare very poorly in the aftermath of such occurrences.  This guy was alluding to rioters that are burning, looting and even killing.  I pray that we aren't THAT divided yet and that enough people on both sides will realize that this agenda is being pushed by external forces.

ETA:  If anyone doubts that this message of Trump somehow "rigging" the 2020 election is becoming pervasive, just type "Trump rigging 2020"  there are pages of hits.  These folks are sowing the wind.

Edited by and then
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1 hour ago, and then said:

When I say co-equal, I'm not saying a president can do as he pleases with no accountability.  That's what the Founders attempted to avoid by having 3 legs to the stool of government.  They intentionally set it up as an adversarial arrangement where all 3 would vie for power and would provide checks and balances against overreach.  

My honest assessment of this process today is that it's all about a raw power grab.  The Left did not win in 2016 and has been relentless in trying not just to impede a president's agenda - that happened during Obama's time and in many other president's tenures.  It's been more than that.  The evidence is beginning to come in that Obama's upper echelon leaders in the FBI, CIA and DoJ actively worked to keep Trump from that job.  I fear that we've become so divided that even if quantifiable, verifiable evidence is found that proves that crimes were committed by people in high places like director of FBI or CIA, people will pass it off to partisanship and either ignore it or refuse to hold the wrongdoers accountable.  If we keep on down THAT road, we will lose our country.

I think we are witnessing an effort from forces outside the country, most likely in Europe, to weaken America so that a globalist agenda can ascend.  Americans fighting each other helps no one but our enemies.

As to the Supreme Court, they also represent a co-equal branch and have no vested authority that is superior to the Executive or Legislative.  They are there to settle disputes over laws that do not comply with the Constitution.  If a USSC were to rule in a way that was obviously political and clearly against the Constitution it would be devastating to the nation.  What I'm thinking of here is a specific ruling that attempted to say, nullify the Second Amendment or the Electoral College.  For either of those to be abolished or even fundamentally weakened or altered, it requires a prescribed process that must be followed.

On all points I agree with your thoughts, I also agree that there are forces outside the US and within the US that are trying to weaken or control not only US foreign policy, but also our election process. I have no doubt that Russia was trying to control our election process in 2016. I also think they will attempt a similar form of control in 2020.

As far control from within the US, I have made myself clear on that already and I don't think it is necessary to do so here. The only way to stop theses forms of control is attack them directly. One of my Biggest problems with President Trump is he refuses to believe that the Russians were meddling in our election, even though it has been proven they were. Also for some reason I don't understand he also refuses to standup to Putin personally.

He hasn't done that wil any other Head of State since he was elected, only Vladimir. I suspect you don't agree with that, and that's ok with me but that's where I stand on this issue along with the Presidents Religious adviser group at the White House.

Take care

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That letter was fantastic. I only wish he'd interrupt live TV and read it aloud. I'm fairly confident that he's right. The left wing of politics is going to get crushed in 2020. If I'm wrong I'll let you guys point and gloat and go about my life wondering what it means. If I'm right you'll either riot or condone the riots. On that, I take solice in our stark differences.

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