Did Jesus Exist?

[Will Due]

16 minutes ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

Theres a surprise.

 

When you humble yourself. Yes. There's a surprise. 

 

 

['Walt' E. Kurtz]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

We really have to clean up your "Drunk English". 

More beer would perhaps help :-P 

[Piney]

3 hours ago, Will Due said:

When you quoted the UB other day, why did you change the spelling of some of its words to make it look like they were spelled wrong?

I didn't. I did a direct cut and paste.  The mistake is right there in the link.

3 hours ago, Will Due said:

It's the trash in you. 

Really?   Your the one spreading racist American UFO cult nonsense. 

 

4 hours ago, Will Due said:

Is it that hard to face the truth ? 

Self projecting? 

This is the only defense you have. Pages upon pages of me showing the lies in numerous threads and I bothered to change a spelling?........lame....

[ThereWeAreThen]

5 hours ago, Piney said:

I didn't. I did a direct cut and paste.  The mistake is right there in the link.

Really?   Your the one spreading racist American UFO cult nonsense. 

 

Self projecting? 

This is the only defense you have. Pages upon pages of me showing the lies in numerous threads and I bothered to change a spelling?........lame....

It's like talking to Papa "everything's paranormal " George. 

[Piney]

1 hour ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

It's like talking to Papa "everything's paranormal " George. 

You mean "Papa "trained Buddhist Monks are wrong-Theosophists are right" George? 

[ThereWeAreThen]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

You mean "Papa "trained Buddhist Monks are wrong-Theosophists are right" George? 

Yea that's the papa! Also known as Papa "I confirm by bias on a crappy meter" George! He has too many titles!

[Piney]

21 minutes ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

Yea that's the papa! Also known as Papa "I confirm by bias on a crappy meter" George! He has too many titles!

You should of been here when he was promoting a "psychic?" who was channeling Emily Bronte and she was speaking with a Cockney accent. 

Then the ensuing argument when I tried to explain she would be speaking with a Northern accent (Bradford dialect of Tyke) not a Southern one. 

He kept thinking I was talking about a Southern American accent. There's quite a few Northerners here and they were well entertained. 

The Midlanders got a good laugh too. 

[XenoFish]

24 minutes ago, Piney said:

You should of been here when he was promoting a "psychic?" who was channeling Emily Bronte and she was speaking with a Cockney accent. 

Then the ensuing argument when I tried to explain she would be speaking with a Northern accent (Bradford dialect of Tyke) not a Southern one. 

He kept thinking I was talking about a Southern American accent. There's quite a few Northerners here and they were well entertained. 

The Midlanders got a good laugh too. 

I must've missed that. 

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I must've missed that. 

It was when I first came back. 

[zep73]

13 hours ago, and then said:

Just as He predicted.  

However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

Fortunately, we won't need faith any longer because He will be with us and will rule over all.  I find that comforting because I believe He is the Creator.  Those who fear it or who rage against the idea of it will discover the justice they've feared isn't what they expected it to be, IMO.  They think in their own terms of what justice is and try to impose that on God.  

Believe, disbelieve, mock or agree, none of it will matter in that day.

I'm sorry to inform you, that the spaceship he was supposed to return in, crashed during landing in 1947...

My condolences 

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

I'm sorry to inform you, that the spaceship he was supposed to return in, crashed during landing in 1947...

My condolences 

........oh mate......I'll be giggling all day......

[docyabut2]

Jesus did exist  after all the studying:)

[Piney]

2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Jesus did exist  after all the studying:)

He lived in Atlantis. 

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

He lived in Atlantis. 

It was Catlantis, Jesus was into Maine Coons.

cormac

[Festina]

On 12/6/2019 at 10:04 PM, danydandan said:

Not really proof by the definition of the word. As much as I love Bart his opinion isn't proof. 

 

Professor Bart is controlled opposition. Had a short chat with the man several years ago, it was useful.  

 In our large, so-called impressive, man-made buildings, where are educational institutions honor men’s knowledge, man plays. They play, and there’s nothing but playing - Playing philosophical and religious games. It is also the place were educated children dally around. Mother nature can do nothing else but smile at this Puppet Show.

There are grains of truth in most that is written, but the oceans of lies are far more numerous designed to confuse the masses.

Did Jesus Exist? the Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Bart Erhman.  2013

Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman relates that in the introduction to his textbook on the New Testament, he describes an important figure from the first century without first revealing he is writing about the stories attached to Apollonius of Tyana:

Even before he was born, it was known that he would be someone special. A supernatural being informed his mother the child she was to conceive would not be a mere mortal but would be divine. He was born miraculously, and he became an unusually precocious young man. As an adult he left home and went on an itinerant preaching ministry, urging his listeners to live, not for the material things of this world, but for what is spiritual. He gathered a number of disciples around him, who became convinced that his teachings were divinely inspired, in no small part because he himself was divine. He proved it to them by doing many miracles, healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead. But at the end of his life he roused opposition, and his enemies delivered him over to the Roman authorities for judgment, but unlike Jesus was not crucified,^[31] as he vanished from the courtroom and reappeared in another place days later where he was seen by his followers,^[32] and convinced them that he was not really dead, but lived on in the heavenly realm. Later some of his followers wrote books about him.^[33]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

I’ve read the few books available on the subject of this Pythagorean philosopher.  Most interesting is that he was a vegetarian vehemently opposed to blood sacrifice.  This did not bode well for the practice Jewish rituals of blood atonement at the time.  

Eusebius the fraud wrote a short book on Apollonius as well, admitting his existence.   Adversus Hierocles.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_against_hierocles.htm

Jewish Paul Of Tarsus never existed either.  His so called works are heavily interpolated creations based on the teaching of Apollonius, Apollos, Pol, teachings who did live in Tarsus.  Coincidence? I don’t think do.

The bigger question I believe is did the Incalcuably malevolent  bloodthirsty tribal god of the proto-Israelites Yahweh exist and if so what exactly was he (IT) and from whence did he (IT) come?

The  Bible is a [Black] book of [Kabbalist] witchcraft  — numbers and letters that hypnotize the reader.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Festina Lente

[Doug1029]

2 hours ago, Festina Lente said:

Did Jesus Exist? the Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Bart Erhman.  2013

Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman relates that in the introduction to his textbook on the New Testament, he describes an important figure from the first century without first revealing he is writing about the stories attached to Apollonius of Tyana:

Even before he was born, it was known that he would be someone special. A supernatural being informed his mother the child she was to conceive would not be a mere mortal but would be divine. He was born miraculously, and he became an unusually precocious young man. As an adult he left home and went on an itinerant preaching ministry, urging his listeners to live, not for the material things of this world, but for what is spiritual. He gathered a number of disciples around him, who became convinced that his teachings were divinely inspired, in no small part because he himself was divine. He proved it to them by doing many miracles, healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead. But at the end of his life he roused opposition, and his enemies delivered him over to the Roman authorities for judgment, but unlike Jesus was not crucified,^[31] as he vanished from the courtroom and reappeared in another place days later where he was seen by his followers,^[32] and convinced them that he was not really dead, but lived on in the heavenly realm. Later some of his followers wrote books about him.^[33]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

Apollonius of Tyana seems a better fit for St. Paul than he does for Jesus.

"Pol" is short for "Apollonius."  Paul was from Tarsus.  Apollonius was from Tyana.  They are little towns about 25 miles apart.  As a child, Apollonius' family moved to Tarsus.  He thus became "Pol of Tarsus."

Apollonius' travels are the same as Paul's, but in reverse order.

Apollonius had a disciple named Damus who accompanied him to India.  The trip is remembered in Indian literature, where Christians think it refers to Thomas.

It is possible that references to "Apollo" in the Bible are references to Apollonius.

Doug

[Festina]

43 minutes ago, Doug1029 said:

Apollonius of Tyana seems a better fit for St. Paul than he does for Jesus.

"Pol" is short for "Apollonius."  Paul was from Tarsus.  Apollonius was from Tyana.  They are little towns about 25 miles apart.  As a child, Apollonius' family moved to Tarsus.  He thus became "Pol of Tarsus."

Apollonius' travels are the same as Paul's, but in reverse order.

Apollonius had a disciple named Damus who accompanied him to India.  The trip is remembered in Indian literature, where Christians think it refers to Thomas.

It is possible that references to "Apollo" in the Bible are references to Apollonius.

Doug

A stranger once told me many years ago St. Paul was the historical “Jesus”.  I denied it at the time.  Now I believe he was he was correct.  The gospels were written by who knows who but they were based on the ideas of others to be sure.  Those  monks were a busy lot in any event taking the works of others and “christianizing” Them to suit their agenda of getting the masses to worship a Jewish savior.  In the nag Hammadi library evidence of their work is evident observing the comparison of EUGNOSTOS THE BLESSED and THE SOPHIA OF JESUS CHRIST.  Despite their different forms, these tractates are two versions of the same original document. The former is without apparent Christian influence, while the latter is heavily Christianized. Research that’s for tends to the conclusion that the Eugnostos the Blessed is nearer the original. On that assumption the placing of these two versions together allows one to see how a non-Christian gnostic tractate was modified in order to express newly acquired “Christian” beliefs  or to attract “Christians” to gnostic teachings or perhaps for both reasons.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sophia_of_Jesus_Christ

[Festina]

1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

Apollonius of Tyana seems a better fit for St. Paul than he does for Jesus.

"Pol" is short for "Apollonius."  Paul was from Tarsus.  Apollonius was from Tyana.  They are little towns about 25 miles apart.  As a child, Apollonius' family moved to Tarsus.  He thus became "Pol of Tarsus."

Apollonius' travels are the same as Paul's, but in reverse order.

Apollonius had a disciple named Damus who accompanied him to India.  The trip is remembered in Indian literature, where Christians think it refers to Thomas.

It is possible that references to "Apollo" in the Bible are references to Apollonius.

Doug

Apollonius was from Tyana but lived and studied in Tarsus for a time.

2. Apollonius was born in the city of Tyana, in the Roman province of Cappadocia, in present day Turkey. At the age of twelve Apollonius went to Tarsus and was educated there, coincidentally Tarsus is the birthplace of Paul of Tarsus a/k/a Paul the apostle. Tarsus is the place Apollonius moved to at a young age and went to school, hence he could be referred to as Paul of Tarsus both Apollonius and Paul were in Tarsus at the same time in their youth, as Newman points out, Apollonius and Paul were also at Ephesus and Rome at at exactly the same time . Apollonius's biographer does not mention Paul at all, but Paul's biographer speaks of "Apollos" having been at Ephesus with him. .Many of his teachings coincide with Paul of Tarsus, and Paul is said to have done many of the same things Apollonius did. {Catholic Authorities claim that Apollonius of Alexandria is the Apollos of the New Testament }

https://enigmose.com/apollonius_is_paul.html

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Festina Lente

[Festina]

1 hour ago, Doug1029 said:

Apollonius of Tyana seems a better fit for St. Paul than he does for Jesus.

"Pol" is short for "Apollonius."  Paul was from Tarsus.  Apollonius was from Tyana.  They are little towns about 25 miles apart.  As a child, Apollonius' family moved to Tarsus.  He thus became "Pol of Tarsus."

Apollonius' travels are the same as Paul's, but in reverse order.

Apollonius had a disciple named Damus who accompanied him to India.  The trip is remembered in Indian literature, where Christians think it refers to Thomas.

It is possible that references to "Apollo" in the Bible are references to Apollonius.

Doug

I found an interning entry in the Suda regarding Damis. Seems he was Timothy was a part of this as well.

Headword: Timasiôn  [Timothy]

 Adler number: tau,598 

Translated headword: Timasion

Vetting Status: high

Translation:

He was an Egyptian youth. He was just past the age of an ephebe, and had just reached the prime of his strength. Although he was chaste, his stepmother fell in love and pressured him and made his father harsh [towards him],[1] plotting nothing like Phaedra,[2] but slandering him as effeminate and delighting in lover-boys rather than women. But he left Naucratis and spent his time around Memphisand had already obtained a ship and was working as a waterman on the Nile. So when he saw Apollonius sailing upstream, as he himself was sailing downstream, he recognized that the crew consisted of wise men, inferring [this] by the cloaks and the books, in which they were deeply engaged, and he begged them to grant him a share of their voyage, since he was a lover of wisdom. But Apollonius said, "This young man is prudent, and let him be judged worthy of what he asks." And he recounted the story about the stepmother in a low tone to those of his companions who were near, as the youth was still sailing towards them. But as the boats came together, Timasion went across and after saying something to his steersman about the cargo, he addressed the men. So Apollonius, bidding him to take a seat in his sight, said, "Egyptian boy, for you appear to be one of the local people, say what you have done bad or good: so that of the former release may come to you from me because of your age, but for the latter having earned praise you may join in philosophy with me and these men." But seeing Timasion blushing and checking the impulse of his mouth to say something or not, at once he pressed his inquiry, as if using no foreknowledge in his regard. But Timasion took courage and said, "O gods, whom may I call myself? For I am not a bad man, but whether it is right to consider myself good, I do not know. For it is not yet praiseworthy not to do wrong." And Apollonius said, "Babai,[3] young man, you converse with me as if from the Indians, for the divine Iarchas[4] holds the same opinion. But how do you judge this, and from what? For you look like a person guarding himself against sinning in some way." But when he began to tell how his stepmother came against him, but he avoided her in her infatuation, a cry arose at how marvelously Apollonius had foretold these events. But replying Timasion said, "O best of men, what has happened to you? For the things I have said are as far from wonder as from laughter." And Damis said, "We wondered at something else, which you do not yet know. And we praise you, young man, because you do not think that you have accomplished anything outstanding." "But do you sacrifice to Aphrodite, young man?" Apollonius asked him. And Timasion said, "By Zeus, [yes], indeed every day; for I consider the goddess great in both human and divine matters." So Apollonius with great delight said, "Let us vote thus, that he should be crowned for chastity even before Hippolytusthe son of Theseus; for he acted insolently towards Aphrodite and perhaps for this reason was not subdued by sexual pleasures nor did any love revel over him, but he belonged to the more rustic and hard-hearted part.[5] But this [youth] here saying that he/she had been overcome by the goddess suffered nothing towards the infatuated woman, but went away, fearing the goddess herself if he did not guard himself against loving wrongly. And the very fact of opposing any one of the gods, as Hippolytusdid Aphrodite, I do not judge to be prudence/chastity; for it is more prudent to speak well about all the gods, and especially at Athens, where altars are set up for unknown divinities." [...] But he called him Hippolytusbecause of the eyes with which he saw his stepmother.

https://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/sol/sol-html

The Bible book of 2 Timothy  4:10 mentions a “Demas” as well.  

https://www.gotquestions.org/Demas-in-the-Bible.html

I see what they did.

Sorry about the large text.  How do I make it smaller?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Festina Lente

[Doug1029]

23 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Apollonius was from Tyana but lived and studied in Tarsus for a time.

2. Apollonius was born in the city of Tyana, in the Roman province of Cappadocia, in present day Turkey. At the age of twelve Apollonius went to Tarsus and was educated there, coincidentally Tarsus is the birthplace of Paul of Tarsus a/k/a Paul the apostle. Tarsus is the place Apollonius moved to at a young age and went to school, hence he could be referred to as Paul of Tarsus both Apollonius and Paul were in Tarsus at the same time in their youth, as Newman points out, Apollonius and Paul were also at Ephesus and Rome at at exactly the same time . Apollonius's biographer does not mention Paul at all, but Paul's biographer speaks of "Apollos" having been at Ephesus with him. .Many of his teachings coincide with Paul of Tarsus, and Paul is said to have done many of the same things Apollonius did. {Catholic Authorities claim that Apollonius of Alexandria is the Apollos of the New Testament }

https://enigmose.com/apollonius_is_paul.html

 

Exactly.  Apollonius is a better fit for Pol of Tarsus than he is for Jesus.

Doug

[Piney]

5 hours ago, Festina Lente said:

Professor Bart is controlled opposition. Had a short chat with the man several years ago, it was useful.  

I attended his lectures and liked him. 

5 hours ago, Festina Lente said:

Jewish Paul Of Tarsus never existed either.  His so called works are heavily interpolated creations based on the teaching of Apollonius, Apollos, Pol, teachings who did live in Tarsus.  Coincidence? I don’t think do.

I knew his chauvinism was a later addition and Rome twisted his version of Christianity around but this whole idea is fascinating. 

[Festina]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

I attended his lectures and liked him. 

I knew his chauvinism was a later addition and Rome twisted his version of Christianity around but this whole idea is fascinating. 

Blavatsky had much to say on the matter of this great sage considering his identity was purposely hidden.  She reveals much.

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v14/ph_051.htm

Snip

Quote

It is quite true that this Sage, who stands unrivalled in his thaumaturgical powers to this day––on evidence historically attested––came into the arena of public life no one seems to know whence, and disappeared from it, no one seems to know whither. But the reasons for this are evident. Every means was used––especially during the fourth and fifth centuries of our era––to sweep from people’s minds the remembrance of this great and holy man. The circulation of his biographies, which were many and enthusiastic, was prevented by the Christians, and for a very good reason, as we shall see. The diary of Damis survived most miraculously, and remained alone to tell the tale. But it must not be forgotten that Justin Martyr often speaks of Apollonius, and the character and truthfulness of this good man are unimpeachable, the more in that he had good reasons to feel bewildered.

Nor can it be denied that there is hardly a Church Father of the first six centuries that left Apollonius unnoticed. Only, according to invariable Christian customs of charity, their pens were dipped as usual in the blackest ink of odium theologicum, intolerance and onesidedness. 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Festina Lente

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Festina Lente said:

Blavatsky had much to say on the matter of this great sage considering his identity was purposely hidden.  She reveals much.

I don't have much credence in someone who helped rewrite my ethnic history and calls me the "Red Race". That concept was out of date when Thomas Jefferson theorized we were related to the Mongolians and came from Asia. She also outright made up things about Buddhism and any Temple Priest will tell you she was lying about it. Her  "Aryan" ideas were also complete nonsense. Any member of  academia here will tell you I'm the "goto guy" when it comes to the Indo-Iranians, studying their culture and participating on digs, researching them from their very beginnings (The Sintashta Culture) to their spread through Asian and the Middle East (The Adronovo Horizon/ The BMAC) and their invention of the chariot and bronze metallurgy while still nomads. 

Along with all that Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria 'Root Races" nonsense .

She was nothing more than a con.

I also never liked the Theosophists "mass comparisons" when it came to religions. Alexander's soldiers brought Buddhism to the West and there were Greco-Buddhist Temples all over the Greek- Roman world. The Greco-Buddhist writings destroyed in the West still exist in China when they were carried there by the Greek-Sogdian Monk Daruma. The problem is Theosophists never bothered to learn to read and write in any Asian language

Daruma (The Hairy Barbarian) was also the founder of Chan (Zen) Buddhism and the originator of Shaolin Boxing.

Now it's been Theorized that the Therapeutae running around the Eastern Roman world were actually Greco-Buddhist monks. Now as a well schooled and ordained Shorinsohei. (Shaolin Warrior Monk) who was taught Daruma's teachings. I'm down with that idea.

I'm not down with the idea of some hidden teacher. In my opinion Christianity was the combination of the teachings of the Therapeutae and the Essenes which human nature had to invent a single teacher for and these two fellows were smashed together as that teacher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_ben_Ananias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Sira

Edited December 10, 2019 by Piney
Urantia is Dreck

[Festina]

15 minutes ago, Piney said:

I don't have much credence in someone who helped rewrite my ethnic history and calls me the "Red Race". That concept was out of date when Thomas Jefferson theorized we were related to the Mongolians and came from Asia. She also outright made up things about Buddhism and any Temple Priest will tell you she was lying about it. Her  "Aryan" ideas were also complete nonsense. Any member of  academia here will tell you I'm the "goto guy" when it comes to the Indo-Iranians, studying their culture and participating on digs researching them from their very begininings (The Sintashta Culture) to their spread through Asian and the Middle East (The Adronovo Horizon/ The BMAC) and their invention of the chariot and bronze metallurgy while still nomads. 

Along with all that Atlantis, Mu and Lemuria 'Root Races" nonsense .

She was nothing more than a con.

I also never liked the Theosophists "mass comparisons" when it came to religions. Alexander's soldiers brought Buddhism to the West and there were Greco-Buddhist Temples all over the Greek- Roman world. The Greco-Buddhist writings destroyed in the West still exist in China when they were carried there by the Greek-Sogdian Monk Daruma. The problem is Theosophists never bothered to learn to read and write in any Asian language

Daruma (The Hairy Barbarian) was also the founder of Chan (Zen) Buddhism and the originator of Shaolin Boxing.

Now it's been Theorized that the Therapeutae running around the Eastern Roman world were actually Greco-Buddhist monks. Now as a well schooled and ordained Shorinsohei. (Shaolin Warrior Monk) who was taught Daruma's teachings. I'm down with that idea.

I'm not down with the idea of some hidden teacher. In my opinion Christianity was the combination of the teachings of the Therapeutae and the Essenes which human nature had to invent a single teacher for and these two fellows were smashed together as that teacher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_ben_Ananias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Sira

We’re even, you are no fan of Blavatsky and I no fan of Josephus.  

Did Moses exist? Or was he called by another name.  Was he an Egyptian? 

It states in Deuteronomy that Yahweh was the tribal god of the proto Israelites and not of other tribes.  

I am the Lord YOUR  God, who brought YOU out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

⁷ “‘You shall have no other gods before^[a] me.

⁸ “‘You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; ⁹ you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord YOUR  God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, ¹⁰ but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

¹¹ “‘You shall not take the name of the Lord YOUR God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

so on and so fourth...

Where was this bloodthirsty malevolent deity before Moses and what was he doing?  How did he get here and why exactly did he arrive ?  Why dies he hate and murder?  When did he become the creator and the most high? And who promoted him?  Why do people worship him? 

For the Most High he seems sensitive to insult and criticism.  And exactly what is he jealous of?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Did Moses exist? Or was he called by another name.  Was he an Egyptian? 

My grandfather, a ancient history professor and Greek and Hebrew translator (Valentine Noel Jowett) theorized Moses never existed and the Exodus never happened in the 1950s.

Most Rabbinical Scholars and Israeli archaeologists agree with this. The Jewish ethnic identity developed "in situ" in the Hills of Canaan.

After many conversations with Israeli archaeologists and Rabbis at Princeton and Penn. I also agree with this.

A mythological cultural hero thrown over the distant memory of the Egyptian occupation of Palestine.

11 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

It states in Deuteronomy that Yahweh was the tribal god of the proto Israelites and not of other tribes.  

Which was written or amended during Ptolemaic rule. Yahweh came later.

In the era of Moses they would of still worshipped El like all the other Canaanites

14 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

We’re even, you are no fan of Blavatsky and I no fan of Josephus.  

I'm not a big fan of Josephus. I take from him what appears to be truth, but as a member of my people's Warrior-Religious caste, he disgusts me as a person.