Did Jesus Exist?

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

On the strength of this, Dance Of Heroes could be a fair bet in the next race at Port Lincoln in 20 minutes or so.

$8.50.

good odds but a bit of an outsider.

[Alchopwn]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Evidence, sources, and rationale please    

I would argue that, unless you have some personal knowledge, agnosticism is the most  rational position, but that faith provides an evolutionary advantage to humans, so it too, is rational  when looked at logically. 

It is perfectly obvious that this alleged god of the scriptures cannot exist.  The Bible is quite explicit about the entity being all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect, and totally benevolent, and yet the received wisdom of the entity repeatedly gets facts about the natural world totally wrong.  How can you have made the world, and not remember how you did it if you are a perfect being and all-knowing?  

Ergo, one cannot know the truth about God until one accepts that God is the anthropomorphization of human ignorance and is born of human deception, self-deception, confirmation bias, and projection.  That is the true knowledge.  One might have "visions" and "spiritual experiences" of cosmic one-ness but these can be replicated with low doses of toxins, and do not count as reliable evidence.

There... My position is explained and totally rational.

[Habitat]

5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

$8.50.

good odds but a bit of an outsider.

It did run second. 

[Alchopwn]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

See if you can get permission to tour the Moss Garden. It's hard but try.

 I spend 3 months studying at the Byodo-In when I was a strapling. Check that out too. 

The Moss Garden Temple is totally worth it.  I loved every minute.  One of the most beautiful gardens in Japan, and they have all the best gardens.  Also, if you go to Byodo-In, make sure to check out some of the other sights in Uji (the city where it is located).  There are a number of temples worth visiting, and the Uji tea street is just great.  I could have stood there getting high on the smell of the matcha driers all day.  It is such a wonderful aroma when they dry the tea, and so intense.  I loved Kyoto, but Uji has a lot to recommend it too.

[Alchopwn]

19 hours ago, Will Due said:

I'm curious.  In your opinion, what "spiritual mystery" has "the lack of belief in God" revealed to you?

Well, having spiritual experiences isn't limited to religious people.  On the other hand, picking them apart after the fact with a scientific eye leads to a lot of interesting insights into the functioning of the human brain and how it can be misled.  For example, I have had experiences of cosmic one-ness, but then I realised that my ******* GD hippy buddy had spiked me with LSD.  I also have trained myself to be a good meditator and lucid dreamer, and I have a good working knowledge of hypnosis too, as these are wonderful ways to hack your body and mind and experience unusual things.  I have even has the much touted "giant silver orb" "God" experience, but because I am a lucid dreamer, I simply zoomed out, and it became a tiny ball bearing in my hand.  I have studied a number of mysteries, and the greatest genuine mystery for me is human consciousness, and science is closing in on it rapidly.

[eight bits]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

What the historical evidences do is show is that it is not impossible, or even unlikely, that  joseph was required to travel to bethlehem for the census, or that he chose to do so within Roman requirements of the time.

No, Mr W. Joseph was not the focus of Imperial Roman taxation policy. If he had to go to Bethlehem of Judea to register, then so did every other 40-times great grandson of "David." Think of how many men that was. No wonder there was no fracking room at the inn.

That is what impossible looks like.

This is a dead horse, Mr W. Give it a decent burial. Or at least find somebody else to discuss it with.

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

You aren't a biological parent. It doesn't matter what you think. Sheri and I know 

You cannot know unless you have that experience to draw from. 

Rabbit on all you like. That's how it is, and they are your rules. You are out of this loop, live with it.

No I argue that the chemical  rush a biological parent may have at  a birth  can be induced by a non biological  parent when they foster, adopt or simply choose to love a child with all their heart .

It is only a mix of chemicals evolution enabled us to feel, and so we can feel it whether in a genuine situation or one we create in our mind.

I will give you  tha tI icant have the expernce a female can, but i can have the same experience a biological father  has t Ive read of the experiences of biological parents and been there at births I dont see any evidnece tha t you  have had an experience of the body or mind any different to  my own You just believe you  have.

  I read your descriptions of the sensations and feelings you had as a biological father. Ive had identical sensations and feelings as  a non biological parent  The y are produced in the body by a command of the mind, under specific stimuli or circumstances,  and so can be reproduced by a conscious command of the mind, even without those circumstances or stimuli   

[psyche101]

6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No I argue that the chemical  rush a biological parent may have at  a birth  can be induced by a non biological  parent when they foster, adopt or simply choose to love a child with all their heart .

It is only a mix of chemicals evolution enabled us to feel, and so we can feel it whether in a genuine situation or one we create in our mind.

I will give you  tha tI icant have the expernce a female can, but i can have the same experience a biological father  has t Ive read of the experiences of biological parents and been there at births I dont see any evidnece tha t you  have had an experience of the body or mind any different to  my own You just believe you  have.

  I read your descriptions of the sensations and feelings you had as a biological father. Ive had identical sensations and feelings as  a non biological parent  The y are produced in the body by a command of the mind, under specific stimuli or circumstances,  and so can be reproduced by a conscious command of the mind, even without those circumstances or stimuli   

Believe what you want. 

Nobody else does. You can't Google what I'm talking about.

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, eight bits said:

No, Mr W. Joseph was not the focus of Imperial Roman taxation policy. If he had to go to Bethlehem of Judea to register, then so did every other 40-times great grandson of "David." Think of how many men that was. No wonder there was no fracking room at the inn.

That is what impossible looks like.

This is a dead horse, Mr W. Give it a decent burial. Or at least find somebody else to discuss it with.

That is just oyur way of looking at it 

We don't know. 

yes its quite possible there were many peole in Bethlehem for the same purpose 

it was not about historical antecedents however but  current property ownership for tax purposes  

Not all descendants of David would have had property in the area 

The property of Joseph may have had no connection to David.

it could be land his father bought, or even land he had purchased (he was an older, quite wealthy man, with some authority)

It is not impossible it is not even improbable. 

The census apparently was one of the taxation based ones. Indeed one of the  the primary purposes of those roman census was to keep a register of property and to collect taxes on that property  

[Mr Walker]

Just now, psyche101 said:

Believe what you want. 

Nobody else does. You can't Google what I'm talking about.

As i said, i find no evidence in anything you wrote, that you ever felt anything more powerful than my feelings. Your feelings for your biological children may have been more powerful than for your non biological children but  you cant assume it is so for everyone.

I sense a deep affection and a form of love  for your non biological children, but not the sort of love i felt for mine, where i would have died for them, or given anything for them. You reserved tha t feeling for your biological children. I did not.  

[eight bits]

21 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The property of Joseph may have had no connection to David.

In which case, it is off-topic in this thread.

Did Jesus Exist?

Focus.

Christopher Hitchens famously argued in favor of a historical Jesus, despite his many and vigorous commitments against Christian pretensions to "truth." This story was his lynchpin in favor of HJ. Because the story was historically unlikely to be true, it would be reasonable to ask why somebody would fabricate it. That in turn supported his thesis that "Luke" wished to salvage "Matthew's" claim that Jesus' birth in and of itself fulfilled a vague prophecy in Jewish scripture, but had to square that with common knowledge of a real Galilean Jesus.

I am not persuaded, but there it is: on-topic discussion of the story.

In contrast, if Joseph had property in the area, for which there is no evidence, and if he couldn't have registered it without dragging his at-term pregnant wife along, for which there is no evidence, and the couple couldn't have stayed with Mary's cousins, which would need an explanation, then "Luke" would merely have misstated the reasons for Joseph's trip. Everything else would be fine. Well, except that Herod the Great isn't king anymore, contrary to Matthew, but hey, if we can make up property for Joseph then we can make up another census for Quirinius, too.

No, that's simply BS. If what's on the page doesn't constrain our inquiry, then it's irrelevant to the topic.

And that's why I am not going to discuss your version of the story. You, or anybody, can rewrite any story. If you want to discuss what "Luke" wrote, then sweet. If you want to discuss yet another one of your fantasies, then you're not doing it with me.

[Habitat]

9 minutes ago, eight bits said:

If you want to discuss yet another one of your fantasies, then you're not doing it with me.

You'll be back ! 

[eight bits]

1 minute ago, Habitat said:

You'll be back ! 

I'm not planning on going anywhere, Habbie.

But I am leaving mucking out the stables of the other poster's fragrant fantasy life to somebody else.

[Habitat]

Just now, eight bits said:

I'm not planning on going anywhere, Habbie.

But I am leaving mucking out the stables of the other poster's fragrant fantasy life to somebody else.

Oh well, I won't be taking short odds about that embargo lasting ! 

[Rlyeh]

23 hours ago, Habitat said:

I think it is the same with any subject, if it engages and interests you, you will eagerly devour it, if it does not, there is no appetite for it, and you will not assimilate it. So it is with the religious sensibility, if it seems alien and remote from your interest, keep out. An appetite may develop later.

You're as bad as Walker contradicting yourself.

[+Sherapy]

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

As i said, i find no evidence in anything you wrote, that you ever felt anything more powerful than my feelings. Your feelings for your biological children may have been more powerful than for your non biological children but  you cant assume it is so for everyone.

I sense a deep affection and a form of love  for your non biological children, but not the sort of love i felt for mine, where i would have died for them, or given anything for them. You reserved tha t feeling for your biological children. I did not.  

@Mr Walker, @psyche101

See post 638 in Jesus and Corporal punishment thread. 

[+Sherapy]

3 hours ago, eight bits said:

In which case, it is off-topic in this thread.

Did Jesus Exist?

Focus.

Christopher Hitchens famously argued in favor of a historical Jesus, despite his many and vigorous commitments against Christian pretensions to "truth." This story was his lynchpin in favor of HJ. Because the story was historically unlikely to be true, it would be reasonable to ask why somebody would fabricate it. That in turn supported his thesis that "Luke" wished to salvage "Matthew's" claim that Jesus' birth in and of itself fulfilled a vague prophecy in Jewish scripture, but had to square that with common knowledge of a real Galilean Jesus.

I am not persuaded, but there it is: on-topic discussion of the story.

In contrast, if Joseph had property in the area, for which there is no evidence, and if he couldn't have registered it without dragging his at-term pregnant wife along, for which there is no evidence, and the couple couldn't have stayed with Mary's cousins, which would need an explanation, then "Luke" would merely have misstated the reasons for Joseph's trip. Everything else would be fine. Well, except that Herod the Great isn't king anymore, contrary to Matthew, but hey, if we can make up property for Joseph then we can make up another census for Quirinius, too.

No, that's simply BS. If what's on the page doesn't constrain our inquiry, then it's irrelevant to the topic.

And that's why I am not going to discuss your version of the story. You, or anybody, can rewrite any story. If you want to discuss what "Luke" wrote, then sweet. If you want to discuss yet another one of your fantasies, then you're not doing it with me.

Boundaries with this type of poster is a good thing. Good job at setting them.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Sherapy

[onlookerofmayhem]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

As you read through the posts here, it is very clear that some people  venerate and idealise materialism, and the idea that there is nothing unknown, or not understood,  left in our world

I've been on this website for almost 10 years. I can't say I ever remember somebody making the claim that we know and/or understand everything. 

But you seem to be advocating a position that if it makes you feel better, one should believe it. I disagree.

Take Jesus for example. 

Technically, nobody alive today can make a knowledge claim about a biblically divine Jesus. 

We weren't there to "know" what really happened. 

But as far as I'm concerned, I find it pretty much impossible that he did.

The virgin birth, water to wine, raising the dead, multiplied fish and bread, healing the blind with spit, coming back from the dead, etc.

There is no precedent or reason to believe any of these are factual. 

I say, why delude yourself and accept these claims without good reason. 

I find the "because it makes me feel good" defense to be contemptible.

Was there a regular, flesh and blood man around the time that preached and was killed? Very possibly, but I hedge my bet that he was certainly not divine and did not perform any of the miraculous deeds attributed to him.

[XenoFish]

4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Well, having spiritual experiences isn't limited to religious people. 

All you need is a solid dose of sleep deprivation. That'll probably do the trick. 

[Will Due]

29 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

I've been on this website for almost 10 years. I can't say I ever remember somebody making the claim that we know and/or understand everything. 

But you seem to be advocating a position that if it makes you feel better, one should believe it. I disagree.

Take Jesus for example. 

Technically, nobody alive today can make a knowledge claim about a biblically divine Jesus. 

We weren't there to "know" what really happened. 

But as far as I'm concerned, I find it pretty much impossible that he did.

The virgin birth, water to wine, raising the dead, multiplied fish and bread, healing the blind with spit, coming back from the dead, etc.

There is no precedent or reason to believe any of these are factual. 

I say, why delude yourself and accept these claims without good reason. 

I find the "because it makes me feel good" defense to be contemptible.

Was there a regular, flesh and blood man around the time that preached and was killed? Very possibly, but I hedge my bet that he was certainly not divine and did not perform any of the miraculous deeds attributed to him.

 

Hedge your bet? What if you lose?

I know you skeptics have strapped yourself (unnecessarily) with a belief that in order to take anything seriously, there must be proof. 

But this situation with Jesus, who he is,  who we are in relation to him, what he invited us to do, all implications of something grand, that it's simply a matter of faith, etc. To follow Jesus in rebellion against rebelliousness, to rebel against established things that aren't true like errors recorded in holy books about him, errors that religious people involved themselves in when supposedly representing him, the list is long. To follow him in draining the swamp of establishment corruption. Especially the corruption of a religious nature. 

It's an enormous opportunity. Why not hedge your bet and participate in that? It's a win win.

However, yes, you'll be crucified one way or another.  It does take guts.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Will Due

[Will Due]

5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Well, having spiritual experiences isn't limited to religious people.  

 

Absolutely.

But there are genuine spiritual experiences and then there are experiences that aren't. 

You agree with me about that don't you?

 

 

[+Sherapy]

41 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Hedge your bet? What if you lose?

I know you skeptics have strapped yourself (unnecessarily) with a belief that in order to take anything seriously, there must be proof. 

But this situation with Jesus, who he is,  who we are in relation to him, what he invited us to do, all implications of something grand, that it's simply a matter of faith, etc. To follow Jesus in rebellion against rebelliousness, to rebel against established things that aren't true like errors recorded in holy books about him, errors that religious people involved themselves in when supposedly representing him, the list is long. To follow him in draining the swamp of establishment corruption. Especially the corruption of a religious nature. 

It's an enormous opportunity. Why not hedge your bet and participate in that? It's a win win.

However, yes, you'll be crucified one way or another.  It does take guts.

 

 

Yet, here we are 2000 years later and in ways that it matters invoking the name of Jesus has added little. 
 

Unless I missed something you basically preach empty slogans. 
 

Why not emulate MLK, or Simon Wiesenthal or the Dali Lama...

Do something with your belief. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

All you need is a solid dose of sleep deprivation. That'll probably do the trick. 

Even high stress can trigger the brain to hallucinate. 

[Will Due]

23 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Do something with your belief. 

 

I am.

How you're crucifying me proves it. 

 

 

[onlookerofmayhem]

58 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Hedge your bet? What if you lose?

To be frank, I don't care.

I feel I have pretty good reasons to believe the story is as valid as any other fairy tale.

If the creator of the universe is going to punish me because I have insufficient reason to take, on faith, an utterly unbelievable story seriously so be it.

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

It's an enormous opportunity. Why not hedge your bet and participate in that? It's a win win.

However, yes, you'll be crucified one way or another.  It does take guts.

I have no need or want to delude myself.

If you told me you'd give me a million dollars if I gave you my name, address and social security number, I wouldn't do it.

There is no reason at all for me to believe there is a prize after death for believing a certain way. So I choose to not even bother buying a ticket.

I'm comfortable knowing how I have lived my life. If god wants to punish me for eternity for coming to the conclusions that I have, so be it.