Did Jesus Exist?

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

None of them first hand....and the later gnostic stuff is pure rubbish. 

 

They're trying to remove the president from office with evidence that isn't first hand.

 

 

[Piney]

8 minutes ago, Will Due said:

They're trying to remove the president from office with evidence that isn't first hand.

So this makes your religion as big of a piece of crap as the Democrats? 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Piney
Urantia is Dreck

[Will Due]

16 minutes ago, Piney said:

So this makes your religion as big of a piece of crap as the Democrats? 

 

In the case with the Dems, second hand info is the basis of their corrupt intentions. 

In the case of Jesus, it's how those who love God get their info.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Will Due
Jesus rules the universe.

[Piney]

Just now, Will Due said:

In the case of Jesus, it's how those who love God get their info.

Your version of Jesus as "Space Alien Micheal" was invented by a uneducated racist con-artist named Joseph Smith. Then latched onto by another racist who ruined peoples' lives  named William S. Sadler and a third conman named Charles Taze Russell who's End Times predictions caused followers to lose their homes and starve.

Seems like bad info to me....

[Will Due]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Your version of Jesus as "Space Alien Micheal" was invented by a uneducated racist con-artist named Joseph Smith. Then latched onto by another racist who ruined peoples' lives  named William S. Sadler and a third conman named Charles Taze Russell who's End Times predictions caused followers to lose their homes and starve.

Seems like bad info to me....

 

There's only one version of Jesus. Wherever there's info about him, it's all good. 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Will Due
Jesus IS existence.

[Piney]

Just now, Will Due said:

There's only one version of Jesus. Wherever there's info about him, it's all good. 

Even false info from people who caused nothing but harm?????

and back on "ignore" you go...

[XenoFish]

You know a thread is past its due date when politics are brought up in a religious thread. Best to kill this will purifying holy fire. 

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

Even false info from people who caused nothing but harm?????

and back on "ignore" you go...

 

Even true info from people who want nothing more than to do good.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Will Due
Jesus is hard to ignore.

[Crikey]

45 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Crikey said- ""Omniscient" means "all-knowing" but God SUSPENDS his omniscience on this testing ground called earth.."

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.. is a lie as it’s unattested anywhere in the Bible

 

When God ordered Abraham to kill his son, God said as he raised the knife- "Stop, for now I know that you fear God" (Genesis 22:12)

See, God DIDN'T KNOW before that test, therefore God wasn't all-knowing ("omniscient").

Same with us, God doesn't know if we'll shape up enough to make it through the pearlies, that's why we're here on earth to try to pass the tests life throws at us..

" In a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize, so run in such a way as to get the prize" (1 Cor 9:24)

 

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Crikey said:

See, God DIDN'T KNOW before that test, therefore God wasn't all-knowing ("omniscient").

........and half the Church Father's just exploded in their tombs.......

[Crikey]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

None of them first hand...

Well Jesus had been killed so it'd have been kinda hard for him to write the New T himself..

[Piney]

28 minutes ago, Crikey said:

Well Jesus had been killed so it'd have been kinda hard for him to write the New T himself..

But he came back to see his pals!!!.....wait...the holes in his hands.....yeah, kinda hard to write much of anything.......

[Crikey]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

But he came back to see his pals!!!.....wait...the holes in his hands.....yeah, kinda hard to write much of anything.......

Congrats mate that was almost funny..:)

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Crikey

[cormac mac airt]

46 minutes ago, Crikey said:

 

When God ordered Abraham to kill his son, God said as he raised the knife- "Stop, for now I know that you fear God" (Genesis 22:12)

See, God DIDN'T KNOW before that test, therefore God wasn't all-knowing ("omniscient").

Same with us, God doesn't know if we'll shape up enough to make it through the pearlies, that's why we're here on earth to try to pass the tests life throws at us..

" In a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize, so run in such a way as to get the prize" (1 Cor 9:24)

Try again: 

Quote

Old Testament Evidence

“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

The New Testament Evidence

“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).

Both Testaments state overwhelming IMO that the Judeo-Christian God IS Omniscient. So either you're lying or the Bible is lying, which is it? 

cormac
 

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Crikey said:

Congrats mate that was almost funny..:)

It comes off better with my Bronte Country accent. 

[eight bits]

44 minutes ago, Crikey said:

Well Jesus had been killed so it'd have been kinda hard for him to write the New T himself..

In an earlier post, you cited the Gospel of Thomas. Jesus doesn't die in that book. Why couldn't he have written the explanations of the sayings? Thomas thinks the explanations are very important:

Quote

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

Meh, all we have are the sayings.

Just musing. A few posts back you kinda quoted me ("No, that's simply BS") and asked

Quote

But if the gospels are BS ...

If you'd read the post, then you'd have seen that what I wrote was

Quote

Well, except that Herod the Great isn't king anymore, contrary to Matthew, but hey, if we can make up property for Joseph then we can make up another census for Quirinius, too.

No, that's simply BS. If what's on the page doesn't constrain our inquiry, then it's irrelevant to the topic.

The referent of that wasn't the Gospels (Luke in this case), but another poster's practice of adding stuff for which there is no evidence.

But since you asked:

Quote

why didn't a single person from the priests, the romans or the people ever came forward to say "The gospels are baloney, all that stuff never happened"

As explained in an earlier post, the priests were gone by the time three of the four canonicals were written, and were at best about five years away from retirement when Mark was written. The earliest surviving comprehensive counterapology is from 170-180 CE, "surviving" in the sense that we trust Origen when he quotes or paraphrases Celsus. I'm sure you've read Origen's Against Celsus, and perhaps you'd agree that "The gospels are baloney, all that stuff never happened" summarizes Celsus' position nicely.

Quote

As it is, nobody ever came forward to say it, why is that?

Actually, the Simonians did say that. Apparently they were very forward about it. For some reason, we're having trouble locating a copy of Simon's book these days, but surely we have a an otherwise complete record of every criticism ever made against early Christianity. You know how they were about record keeping.

Edited January 24, 2020 by eight bits

[Crikey]

2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Both Testaments state overwhelming IMO that the Judeo-Christian God IS Omniscient. So either you're lying or the Bible is lying, which is it? 

 

But mate, if God is all-knowing and already knows whose going to pass or flunk his tests, why did he feel the need to send Jesus? What was Jesus FOR?

[onlookerofmayhem]

2 minutes ago, Crikey said:

 

But mate, if God is all-knowing and already knows whose going to pass or flunk his tests, why did he feel the need to send Jesus? What was Jesus FOR?

Hmmmm. It's as if there are numerous plot holes because the bible is a fairy tale, written by many people over many years as opposed to a divinely inspired work.

Why would a god let anybody corrupt his all important message to his creation?

 

[Crikey]

Guys, guys, some of your posts are getting longer and longer and I'm so busy dodging your automatic bursts that I'm losing track of what you're saying-

 

"The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?" (Ecc 6:11)

and I regretfully don't have the time to wade through them, especially as an exciting episode of The Waltons is on TV soon which I want to see- "Olivia bakes a cake for the county fair, and grandma knits a shawl"...Hmm sounds good.

By contrast my own posting style is to address individual points with carefully-aimed sniper shots as a great prophet once said-

"This is this!"

Edited January 24, 2020 by Crikey

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Crikey said:

But mate, if God is all-knowing and already knows whose going to pass or flunk his tests, why did he feel the need to send Jesus? What was Jesus FOR?

Setting aside a bunch of non-contemporary writers removed from the Crucifixion of Christ by some 30 - 70 years, there isn't even textual evidence FROM THE ROMANS for the claim of God stating "This is my son, in whom I'm well pleased" as claimed in the Bible. It's ALL hear-say. Which means you're attempting to validate a book based on hear-say, and not even second hand hear-say at that. 

cormac

[Crikey]

8 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

..Why would a god let anybody corrupt his all important message to his creation?

In one breath Jesus-rejecters say the bible is full of contradictions, then in the next breath they say its been edited and cleaned up over the centuries to remove the contradictions, I wish they'd make up their minds..

Fact is, the bible has come down to us over the centuries unedited with all the warts still in it, that's why we can trust it, nothing added, nothing taken away..

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, Crikey said:

In one breath Jesus-rejecters say the bible is full of contradictions, then in the next breath they say its been edited and cleaned up over the centuries to remove the contradictions, I wish they'd make up their minds..

Fact is, the bible has come down to us over the centuries unedited with all the warts still in it, that's why we can trust it, nothing added, nothing taken away..

The fact that we have extant texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Alexandrinus, the Septuagint, the Vulgate, etcetra puts the lie to that claim as they all DO NOT say exactly the same thing. Nice try though. 

cormac

[onlookerofmayhem]

3 minutes ago, Crikey said:

Fact is, the bible has come down to us over the centuries unedited with all the warts still in it, that's why we can trust it, nothing added, nothing taken away.

[Crikey]

22 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Setting aside a bunch of non-contemporary writers removed from the Crucifixion of Christ by some 30 - 70 years, there isn't even textual evidence FROM THE ROMANS for the claim of God stating "This is my son, in whom I'm well pleased" as claimed in the Bible. It's ALL hear-say. Which means you're attempting to validate a book based on hear-say, and not even second hand hear-say at that.

Elvis impersonators are everywhere and they all copy him by singing exactly the same words such as "Stay offa my blue suede shoes", "You ain't nothing but a hound dog", "I'm all shook up" and they'd never dream of changing a word.

Same with the bible writers, they all copy the first gospels to the letter, right Elv?-

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Crikey

[Crikey]

11 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The fact that we have extant texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Alexandrinus, the Septuagint, the Vulgate, etcetra puts the lie to that claim as they all DO NOT say exactly the same thing. Nice try though. 

If they all mention Jesus, there's your evidence OUTSIDE the bible that he existed..:)