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zep73

Did Jesus Exist?

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Hammerclaw
7 hours ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Go back to your word m********ion then. Maybe one day you get to the level of word orgy?

Anyway if one follows Paul's theology they would know that the imperishable cannot inherit the imperishable  (1 Cor. 15:50). Note that the very Pauline Gospel of Mark in our most early, and reliable manuscripts ends with the women fleeing the tomb telling nobody with no ressurection appearance by Jesus (only a young man with white clothes with instruction in the tomb while before the crucifixion a young man looses his clothes). Maybe the original ending was lost, but if one understands Marks symbology the original ending fits (whoever thinks the ending we received today is genuine to Mark must have been dropped on their head as a child). You see even though God's firstborn archangel took on Davidic flesh, his ressurection body is spiritual flesh.

 

Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!


"Christian apologists will often throw a tantrum and kick up hay over the notion of “mass hallucination.” That’s impossible! Never documented! Absurd on its face! And they’ll especially bring up “the more than five hundred brethren” Paul says the resurrected Jesus “appeared” to (1 Corinthians 15:6). “You can’t explain that!” they’ll say. And what about “the twelve” (1 Corinthians 15:5) and “all the apostles” (1 Corinthians 15:7)! How can that be explained? Jesus must have risen! God be praised!


Formally, this is an equivocation fallacy. Because what critics mean by “group hallucination” is not what Christian apologists mean by appearances of Jesus. So apologists conflate those two, hope you don’t notice, and get the result they want. But if you unpack that, you can easily expose the deception. Mainstream explanations of the visions of Jesus do not say what the apologists claim. Apologists really just want everyone to assume that the encounters with the risen Jesus narrated in the Gospels are true. And not just true, but true in every detail."


https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255

 

Paul only talks about visions/dreams, and revelations from scripture for him, and the apostles before him on Jesus's appearences. So in later Matthew, Luke, and John having Jesus eat, show/touch wounds and singing karaoke with the disciples is pure BS if one believes Paul.

Romans 7:4-5

"4 In the same way, my friends, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death."

Romans 8:2-4

"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Romans 8:8

"6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law — indeed it cannot, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Jesus ressurecting in the human flesh cannot please God.

Here's Jesus putting the rulers of sin and death under his feet, then crucifying the Law (five books of the Torah/five senses that lead one to sin), and burying it permanently. But one has to be guided by the Holy Ghost to see the:

1 Corinthians 2:6-8

"6 Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish. 7 But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Joshua 10:24-27

"24 When they brought the kings out to Joshua, Joshua summoned all the Israelites, and said to the chiefs of the warriors who had gone with him, "Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings." Then they came near and put their feet on their necks. 25 And Joshua said to them, "Do not be afraid or dismayed; be strong and courageous; for thus the LORD will do to all the enemies against whom you fight." 26 Afterward Joshua struck them down and put them to death, and he hung them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening. 27 At sunset Joshua commanded, and they took them down from the trees and threw them into the cave where they had hidden themselves; they set large stones against the mouth of the cave, which remain to this very day."

1 Corinthians 15:24-26

"24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

There's so much more. I cannot prove Jesus is entirely fiction, but to those that pay attention the reverse that Jesus certainly existed is droll.

You could save a lot of time and effort by just cutting and pasting old posts from five years ago. They're just as inauthentic and say the same damn thing.

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Sherapy
7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Of course it doesn't :)

 What makes you happy? 

External material well being, or inner psychological needs being met ?

Humans need a bit of both, but modern humans have gone almost totally for the material, and thus lost the abilty to find happiness, contentment, purpose, connection etc inside themselves.

"We" have never been so depressed, anxious, mentally unwell,or suicidal as we are today   because we lack  having our  psychological  needs met that make us happy content purposeful etc. 

 

quote

In the last 45 years suicide rates have increased by 60% worldwide. Suicide is now among the three leading causes of death among those aged 15-44 (male and female). Suicide attempts are up to 20 times more frequent than completed suicides.

Although suicide rates have traditionally been highest amongst elderly males, rates among young people have been increasing to such an extent that they are now the group at highest risk in a third of all countries.

Mental health disorders (particularly depression and substance abuse) are associated with more than 90% of all cases of suicide.

However, suicide results from many complex sociocultural factors and is more likely to occur during periods of socioeconomic, family and individual crisis (e.g. loss of a loved one, unemployment, sexual orientation, difficulties with developing one's identity, disassociation from one's community or other social/belief group, and honour).

In the US, the Centre of Disease Control and Prevention reports that:

Overall, suicide is the eleventh leading cause of death for all US Americans, and is the third leading cause of death for young people 15-24 years.

Although suicide is a serious problem among the young and adults, death rates continue to be highest among older adults ages 65 years and over.

Males are four times more likely to die from suicide than are females. However, females are more likely to attempt suicide than are males.

https://www.befrienders.org/suicide-statistics

eg Take away a young person's mobile phone and watch them go to pieces. and yet such a device, as a  material thing, is totally unnecessary, and never existed until  a few decades ago  

quote

How many people have depression?

Clinical depression has surged to epidemic proportions in recent decades, from little-mentioned misery at the margins of society to a phenomenon that is rarely far from the news. It is widespread in classrooms and boardrooms, refugee camps and inner cities, farms and suburbs.

At any one time it is estimated that more than 300 million people have depression – about 4% of the world’s population when the figures were published by the World Health Organization (WHO) in 2015. Women are more likely to be depressed than men.

Depression is the leading global disability, and unipolar (as opposed to bipolar) depression is the 10th leading cause of early death, it calculates. The link between suicide, the second leading cause of death for young people aged 15-29, and depression is clear, and around the world two people kill themselves every minute.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jun/04/what-is-depression-and-why-is-it-rising

AND YET we now live in the richest, most materially prosperous, time in Human history, with almost every material marker, from literacy  through economic prosperity and individual wealth ,  to life expectancy, at their highest and continuing to rise.  

Is this you as the eternal optimist? 
 

By the way, this is why I say you are an extreme pessimist. 
 

This is you looking out into he world, and this is what you see.

This is Wally propaganda your reasons and justifications are to belittle those that work hard and built lives  for themselves that bring with it material comfort. 

Do you have any idea how much good you can do with money? 
 

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Hammerclaw
17 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Do you have any idea how much good you can do with money? 

No, but if everybody will send me theirs, I promise to do my best to find out for us.:D

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Sherapy
49 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No, but if everybody will send me theirs, I promise to do my best to find out for us.:D

:P:wub:

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Xeno-Fish

I wonder if the atheist/skeptics are offended by those who are religious/spiritual. And that's the reason for such animosity?

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Sherapy
9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You might imagine what is in my head but you cant check to find out 

I can check any projection of consciousness against the real thing  and see if it matches up.

  indeed that is how i establish if a projection is to a real time and place on earth.  

Why not plan an astral travel vacay to Charlevoix Mi Labor Day weekend (Sept. 2020) to the Red Fox Regatta, be our guest. I picked this event as you claim to know a lot about sailing. 

Have a chat with the locals like you claim you can do, watch the races, drink in the beauty of Charlevoix Lake and I will ask you a few questions that are known to the locals, perhaps you will see me there somewhere too, ( you know what I look like) we will be on my Dad’s boat it is named the Mezzaluna, keep your ears open for how we got the name for our boat, it is a common conversation of my Dad’s there is a good chance you will hear about it or ask the locals. I will ask a few questions to describe the boat, very simple, let’s see if astral travel is indeed the equivalent of having the actual experience or being there like you claim.:D

Edited by Sherapy
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Rlyeh
13 hours ago, Crikey said:

My own debating style is the carefully-aimed "sniper" style, where I address each point separately (one shot one kill) rather than fire off big blunderbusses at people.."The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?" (Bible:Ecc 6:11)

I thought you just deny?  I mean you did that when slavery was brought up and the authorship of the Gospels.

Edited by Rlyeh
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Rlyeh
5 hours ago, Crikey said:

 

Huh? You're thinking of catholicism mate, it's got satans fingerprints all over it..:)

A large number of Christian denominations have roots in Catholicism.

http://www.truthforsaints.com/Christian_Denominations/denomination_history/denomination_history.html

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Sherapy
7 hours ago, eight bits said:

The ideological point is why the exacto knife landed there. All agree that 16:7-8 are authentic.

In every way a short piece of prose could possibly be a single unit, so are verses 8 and 9. As you probably know, verse 8 ends with the word gar -  indeed, moreover, ... a word that usually introduces a new clause, and rarely (not never, I happiy concede) ends one.

Example against interest: He has a viviid imagination, indeed.

Taken as a unit, 8 and 9 complete a figure of speech that doubtless has a name, but damned if I know what the name is. But I do know a figure of speech when I read one. This one is to make a strong categorical statement (those women told nobody - diouble negation in Greek is emphasis, and 16:8 uses the double negative for this point), and then shortly thereafter, in the same breath so to speak, "walk that back" (one of those women actually did deliver the message, just as requested by the young man in white).

Mark uses that figure repeatedly. The most famous example can be played for humor (the "no" is an emphatic double negative)

6:5 He could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them.

An extended version launches a major plot point: at the arrest, all the disciples run away, but no, Peter still follows him (14:50, 54). It's not just Mark who uses the device, you can find it in Homer; you can find it today in American English.

I don't see any evidence of misogyny in Mark. The woman who is cured of bleeding introduces a major innovation in his healing technique (touching his clothes, rather than his person 5:27-30), which subsequently becomes standard practce, increasing his clinical  throughput (6:56). The Syrophoenician woman is the one and only person in the entire performance to hand Jesus back a line as good as the one he dishes out (I'm not here to feed dogs - even dogs get table scraps). And of course, why do the women exhibit symptoms of clinical shock in 16:8?

Because the boys have all run away, by now even Peter. The women spent the day before last watching their best friend die slowly by asphixation after having been half-flayed, But they stayed. I doubt they had much of a sabbath rest.  And now, bright and early they're still working, come to perform the funerary rights of their faith, and the body is gone, with a BS explanation by some stranger who doesn't belong there, and if you had to guess, you'd guess he was a tomb robber.

This is the opposite of women are unreliable. Mark didn't stop at 16:8, somebody stopped him.

 

 

As usual, best post for substance, originality, and just so damn interesting, 

Thank you :wub:

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Sherapy
52 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I wonder if the atheist/skeptics are offended by those who are religious/spiritual. And that's the reason for such animosity?

Great question, Hmmm, I was once an Atheist, and I was once deeply involved in New Age Spiritually, amongst many other paths. I enjoy the diversity of beliefs, the only application of beliefs that raises my eyebrow is pretentiousness, thinking that one is better than that because the path they walk, and nothin in their character warrants it, under these circumstances a path is more about getting somethign in return for the investment. I  see it as phony holy and this can apply to any path, 

I do note the polarization, but it depends on the posters.

There have been many times where we have had discussions without it. I actually prefer this, but understand that this is a versus type of frame, therefore it comes with the territory, 

Do you see the polarization as personal? Just curious. 

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Xeno-Fish
5 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Do you see the polarization as personal? Just curious. 

In a way I do. It isn't so much as offering correction. It's like a hammer being used to bash someone's skull in. 

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Orestes_3113
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

In a way I do. It isn't so much as offering correction. It's like a hammer being used to bash someone's skull in. 

Some atheists did not have the privilege to grow up with atheism. Other than a few broad topics in high school my knowledge was very limited until I was about 24/25, pretty aloof.

Compare that to those who have had to struggle in order to reject religion and embrace atheism. It is a bit like a coming out I guess, switching sides I mean.

If I were to tell someone around me that there is more to it than plain myth then I need to be careful to pick the crowd.

Religion is a trauma affair.

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Sherapy
17 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

In a way I do. It isn't so much as offering correction. It's like a hammer being used to bash someone's skull in. 

You see it exclusive to the Atheist side?

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Xeno-Fish
8 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You see it exclusive to the Atheist side?

No. Both sides do it. Sometimes one side more so than the other. But the end results is still the same, zero actually discussion. You can pretty much condense 90% of the threads in this section into one. The believers never go into why they believe, and the atheist only want to discredit. There is no middle ground. And it's pretty boring.

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K9Buck

I knew a woman who said that she "died" as a child on an operating table and met Jesus.  She said that Jesus told her that she would be ok, and she was.

I've read and heard many others who have claimed to have met Jesus in an NDE.  

I believe that Jesus is real.

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Sherapy
43 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

I knew a woman who said that she "died" as a child on an operating table and met Jesus.  She said that Jesus told her that she would be ok, and she was.

I've read and heard many others who have claimed to have met Jesus in an NDE.  

I believe that Jesus is real.

This is common to Ketamine an anesthesia used in surgeries. The side effect are NDE’s. 

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I wonder if the atheist/skeptics are offended by those who are religious/spiritual. And that's the reason for such animosity?

Santa Disillusionment Syndrome.

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Sherapy
45 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No. Both sides do it. Sometimes one side more so than the other. But the end results is still the same, zero actually discussion. You can pretty much condense 90% of the threads in this section into one. The believers never go into why they believe, and the atheist only want to discredit. There is no middle ground. And it's pretty boring.

For me, I find a lot of good stuff here, I enjoy the insights and wisdoms gleaned from the various paths often implicit in their perspectives, from those that share. 
 

I also learn a lot, many posters that really do their homework and offer posts that are educational. 
 

I have enjoyed watching and sharing in your growth, your journey is very interesting. I think you have shared from the fronts lines of seriously questioning ones beliefs. 

I enjoy reading Hammerclaw and Guyv., they offer Interesting insights into faith and the practical side to it.

 

I wish certain posters would share about the insights from their journey as opposed to preaching. And, I can see where it would be boring for you, I ask questions a lot too in an attempt to get into the perspective to no avail.
 

An side, My mom stayed with me for a month and I observed her get her bible and read it and say her rosary everyday for an hour, I looked to me like this was a very special ritual for her, so I asked her about it. I was shocked at how defensive and angry she became at first, it took me a good 10 minutes reassuring her that I was interested in her journey not in judging it. I think she thought and reacted so defensively because she would only be asking in value judgment. She was very disappointed and terrified for my soul to that I didn’t walk her path, she filled her head with nonsense. After she died I asked for her bible and rosary in honor of that moment, that for one conversation we had a moment of true sharing. 
 

 

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Hammerclaw
6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

For me, I find a lot of good stuff here, I enjoy the insights and wisdoms gleaned from the various paths often implicit in their perspectives, from those that share. 
 

I also learn a lot, many posters that really do their homework and offer posts that are educational. 
 

I have enjoyed watching and sharing in your growth, your journey is very interesting. I think you have shared from the fronts lines of seriously questioning ones beliefs. 

I enjoy reading Hammerclaw and Guyv., they offer Interesting insights into faith and the practical side to it.

 

I wish certain posters would share about the insights from their journey as opposed to preaching. And, I can see where it would be boring for you, I ask questions a lot too in an attempt to get into the perspective and get hit with hostility. 
 

My mom stayed with me for a month and I observed her get her bible and read it and say her rosary everyday for an hour, I looked to me like this was a very special ritual for her, so I asked her about it. I was shocked at how defensive and angry she became at first, it took me a good 10 minutes reassuring her that I was interested in her journey not in judging it. I think she thought and reacted so defensively because she would only be asking in value judgment. She was very disappointed and terrified for my soul to that I didn’t walk her path, she filled her head with nonsense. After she died I asked for her bible and rosary in honor of that moment, that for one conversation we had a moment of true sharing. 
 

 

In her Bible, did she mark her favorite verses?

 

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mark Sanders said:

Some atheists did not have the privilege to grow up with atheism. Other than a few broad topics in high school my knowledge was very limited until I was about 24/25, pretty aloof.

Compare that to those who have had to struggle in order to reject religion and embrace atheism. It is a bit like a coming out I guess, switching sides I mean.

If I were to tell someone around me that there is more to it than plain myth then I need to be careful to pick the crowd.

Religion is a trauma affair.

Religion is a trauma affair? 
 

I was an Atheist in a time where it was probably the equivalent of coming out as you said. Lol 

I owned a hair salon back then and you can’t believe the things well meaning Christians would say about my Atheism. 
 

Two people that shocked the heck out of me, well because, not only did they accept me, they defended my right to be an Atheist, both were Catholic one was European influenced Catholic and was a Catholic Priest. 

Two people that walked the talk, there is a difference between giving lip service and using ones example to speak for them. 

 

Edited by Sherapy

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Xeno-Fish
24 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

For me, I find a lot of good stuff here, I enjoy the insights and wisdoms gleaned from the various paths often implicit in their perspectives, from those that share. 
 

I also learn a lot, many posters that really do their homework and offer posts that are educational. 
 

I have enjoyed watching and sharing in your growth, your journey is very interesting. I think you have shared from the fronts lines of seriously questioning ones beliefs. 

I enjoy reading Hammerclaw and Guyv., they offer Interesting insights into faith and the practical side to it.

 

I wish certain posters would share about the insights from their journey as opposed to preaching. And, I can see where it would be boring for you, I ask questions a lot too in an attempt to get into the perspective to no avail.
 

An side, My mom stayed with me for a month and I observed her get her bible and read it and say her rosary everyday for an hour, I looked to me like this was a very special ritual for her, so I asked her about it. I was shocked at how defensive and angry she became at first, it took me a good 10 minutes reassuring her that I was interested in her journey not in judging it. I think she thought and reacted so defensively because she would only be asking in value judgment. She was very disappointed and terrified for my soul to that I didn’t walk her path, she filled her head with nonsense. After she died I asked for her bible and rosary in honor of that moment, that for one conversation we had a moment of true sharing. 
 

 

I don't share your optimism. All I see is an ego war. 

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Sherapy
25 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

In her Bible, did she mark her favorite verses?

 

She did and she had a little notebook of her most private thoughts. The Bible is  in one of those leather bound zippered book covers, where you can store things in the inner pockets. I also wear her cross. 
 

We prayed together before she lost consciousness and died, her favorite prayer was Hail Mary. 
 

 

 

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Sherapy
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I don't share your optimism. All I see is an ego war. 

I think it is good to share what we think, it is constructive and hopefully growth stimulating. 
 

Interesting you see ego war, can you expand on this. 
 

 

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Xeno-Fish
9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I think it is good to share what we think, it is constructive and hopefully growth stimulating. 
 

Interesting you see ego war, can you expand on this. 
 

 

I'm right, you're wrong. I won't back down from my beliefs, blah, blah, blah. 

No middle ground. No desire to actually understand another point of view. 

There is only the atomic god of science or a spiritual god. Preachers exist on both sides of belief. If you've got a middle ground approach, you walk away from the arguments. 

I no longer get the pure atheist view, nor to I wish to bow before an imaginary being. 

I'm a perpetual fence sitter. I care not much for the zealotry of either side.

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Orestes_3113
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'm right, you're wrong. I won't back down from my beliefs, blah, blah, blah. 

No middle ground. No desire to actually understand another point of view. 

There is only the atomic god of science or a spiritual god. Preachers exist on both sides of belief. If you've got a middle ground approach, you walk away from the arguments. 

I no longer get the pure atheist view, nor to I wish to bow before an imaginary being. 

I'm a perpetual fence sitter. I care not much for the zealotry of either side.

Havent walked yet...

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