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zep73

Did Jesus Exist?

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Sherapy
28 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'm right, you're wrong. I won't back down from my beliefs, blah, blah, blah. 

No middle ground. No desire to actually understand another point of view. 

There is only the atomic god of science or a spiritual god. Preachers exist on both sides of belief. If you've got a middle ground approach, you walk away from the arguments. 

I no longer get the pure atheist view, nor to I wish to bow before an imaginary being. 

I'm a perpetual fence sitter. I care not much for the zealotry of either side.

Gotcha, I get this.

I was like this once too.

I think I was simply making peace with uncertainty.

Seeing more gray is really ones tolerance for uncertainty. IMHO

Being right, or being sure it’s really about thinking one is in control, really we aren’t  as much as we wish we were,

Now, when faced with the angst of the unknown I remind myself to accept without preference, I will figure things out either way.

My energy goes into letting go, now. 

For me being an Atheist was liberating, as a believer or one who hadn't questioned as a kid I envied the sure of themselves that the Atheist represented. But there is uncertainty on the Atheist side too, no quick fixes, Then one finds a middle ground, 
 

I always look at how defensive ( clinging/needy) one is ( invested in the outcome) including myself. The more defensive the more invested in the outcome, practically speaking this lends to a lot of anxiety. 
 

This is my two cent not anything more.

 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy

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Mr Walker
4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Is this you as the eternal optimist? 
 

By the way, this is why I say you are an extreme pessimist. 
 

This is you looking out into he world, and this is what you see.

This is Wally propaganda your reasons and justifications are to belittle those that work hard and built lives  for themselves that bring with it material comfort. 

Do you have any idea how much good you can do with money? 
 

lol

it is the reverse

The world is as it is, and i just proved it with statistical facts. 

However I am as I am, despite the world being as it is.

This requires supreme optimism

I see ways forward and hope for humanity 

I do not get depressed, worried, or anxious. i do not get afraid lonely or suicidal

I think its more delusion than optimism if you can not see or appreciate the way the world is and why it has become so.

And perhaps because you live in one of the richest parts of the richest country in the world  and really only think about yourself and maintaining control in your own world

If so, you really don't have to know or think about the state of the rest of the world and thus don't have to be optimistic or pessimistic about it .

Your last statements are contradictory 

I know precisely how much you can do with money. I am the one who has given away over a million dollars during my working life to help others. i am the one who has used my own prosperity to care for many others who were homeless or could not care for themselves  (and in both i include my wife as my partner) 

That is my point.

Its not money or wealth but how you spend it  This is one of the true wisdoms of the bible.

You can spend your wealth on material things which, in the end,  after providing your basic needs, gain you nothing, or you can spend it on spiritual things like helping others, which, in the end, actually mean something and give you more happiness mental health  and satisfaction than material possessions 

It is not money but the LOVE of money which is described as a limiting evil in the world 

Not belittling just giving a different perspective  If  you  are lucky, and or you work hard, does that mean you are entitled to every thing you can buy. own or possess. and why do you feel you need all tha t ? 

After providing for material well being and comfort, so you are not hungry  cold wet or ill and your children are educated , no one NEEDS more to be happy and content. They just learn to WANT more 

If the people in  wealthy nations gave about 5% of their income/wealth then all poverty starvation and most curable illnesses could be eliminated right round the world.

it s not much to ask and anyone who refuses to must look carefully and carefully into what sort of person the y are and what their values are.

Maybe they don't care. Maybe it even gives them an excuse to blame god (even a god the y don't believe exists)  for the world's woes, and question believers as to why god would allow suffering to exist, when it was actually in their power to prevent most of it    

 

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Xeno-Fish
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Gotcha, I get this.

I was like this once too.

I think I was simply making peace with uncertainty.

Seeing more gray is really ones tolerance for uncertainty. 

Being right, or being sure it’s really about thunking one is in control, really we aren’t  as much as we wish we were,

Now, when faced with the angst of the unknown I remind myself to accept without preference, I will figure things out either way.

My energy goes into letting go, now. 

For me being an Atheist was liberating, as a believer or one who hadn't questioned as a kid I envied the sure of themselves that the Atheist represented. 
 

I always look at how defensive ( clinging/needy) one is ( invested in the outcome) including myself. The more defensive the more invested in the outcome, practically speaking this lends to a lot of anxiety. 

Atheism devalued my exist. Making me nothing more than a meat robot. Religion reduced me to being nothing more than god's **** up. 

Both points of view are equally depressing. I no long can assume I know anything for certain. Plus a part of me doesn't exactly care. 

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Orestes_3113
7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Atheism devalued my exist. Making me nothing more than a meat robot. Religion reduced me to being nothing more than god's **** up. 

Both points of view are equally depressing. I no long can assume I know anything for certain. Plus a part of me doesn't exactly care. 

That is the whole point though. To understand life has its seasons, chear up things get better, winter doesnt have to last forever. But you have to lean into it.

41+y9bc-xFL._SX466_.jpg

Edited by Mark Sanders

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Mr Walker
13 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Mmm yeah nah, not where I was heading with that. More along the lines of less critical evaluation and no knowledge of things like dementia or Alzheimer's. The obvious common denominator here is people. Its Just far more likely and logical that the individual is the source of such wild stories. We know people can stuggle with realty, we have much more proof of that then we do of deity's

You want to believe  that and it makes you feel safe and comfortable, so whom am i to argue  I will point out however that we cared in our home for my wifes parents with gradually advancing altzheimers for over 6 years until they became totally dependent and then died  and were thus required to learn and know a great deal about the causes nature and outcomes of alzheimer's 

Our best friends first child was born brain damaged and is still a child, unable to walk and talk,  50 years later.  I dont deny the  existence of medical reasons and other things like drug use and alcohol for some people's experiences I do deny that this means ALL such experiences are unreal.

I know that to be untrue

Another common denominator can be the experiences, both the  imaginary and the  real ones 

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Habitat
8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

That's your brain bruv. That's why you can't comprehend physics 

I repeat, and in this case I am the real universe's warning to you, your last chance to be a man of knowledge, put your big boy pants on, and repeat after me, I MUST NOT TAKE ARGUMENTS FROM AUTHORITY ( from Carroll, the Pope, or anyone else) AS SCIENCE ! You really are a benighted peanut, but mostly I blame the likes of those frauds Carroll and Dawkins, who have grievously misled an entire generation of science fan-boys, with fudged, fake "science". The true man of science say, "hey, wait a minute, what experiment did we do to test these ideas ? " The truth is, these speculations, and that are all they are, are untestable. On the other hand, the speculation that there is a Divinity, is testable, and laid out in the words attributed to JC, and whether he existed or not, makes no difference to that, and that really is the truth. But so were the words, "do not cast pearls before swine". This place does look like a piggery at times.

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Crikey said:

Yup life throws punches at Christians and nonchristians alike, but Christians know how to roll with the punch, backed up by a healthy sense of humour..:D

For examp, when I was just out of jail (3-month vigilante rap) in 2002 I was homeless, jobless girlfriendless, near-penniless and living rough in a remote wood, but because I had the lurv of Jesus in my baby-blue eyes I was able to laugh at my predicament-

"Oh great" I thought, "I've ended up as Bigfoot"..:D

I think (no i know, based on medical/scientific evidences)  that  faith and belief can be a big help, even medicinal.

However i also believe its more complex than that Your experience involved irony, self talking, humour and other qualities which both a believer and non believer can use Thus atheists can cope but need to develop other psychological coping methods  rather  than accept the discounted  (free) gift of faith and hope 

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Sherapy
23 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Atheism devalued my exist. Making me nothing more than a meat robot. Religion reduced me to being nothing more than god's **** up. 

Both points of view are equally depressing. I no long can assume I know anything for certain. Plus a part of me doesn't exactly care. 

It will interesting to see where you land. 
I thought is was fun being an atheist, while I am not on this path anymore I enjoy an Atheist post, psyche is a natural and a personal fave and my believer status encouraged a lot of questioning.

How are you doing in the I don’t give a shyt zone? 

 

Edited by Sherapy

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

That's got nothing to do with the discussion you quoted. He said religious ideologies are hard to comprehend. I asked what's so hard about it? 

Nothing as far as I can tell. That's why it can be forced onto young children. 

If you dont get it yet, then i can't explain it you, but my comment went exactly to his. 

I said he should not accept nor use other people's religions or beliefs  but look inside himself and find the core of his own spirituality faith and belief  (which every functioning adult  human has, as a result of their evolved level of cognition. )

Rely on self  understanding, not another's understanding.  

Religion is no more forced on young children than any other social expectation 

It is just that, while you can accept  the other social expectations,  like politeness honesty etc.  you don't like religious beliefs 

Its a parent's responsibility and duty  to pass on  what they have found to be constructive beliefs, values, ethics and moralities, and to encourage children in.them.

Any which a child rejects, it can do so once it is independent of its parents.

Atheist or theist, while a child is in a parents house and dependent on its parents, then its parents rules and expectations hold sway (except in cases where the parents behaviours are abusive or in themselves outside social norms ) eg a parent could require a child to be a meat eater or a vegetarian, but not a cannibal  :)   

Edited by Mr Walker

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Xeno-Fish
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

How are you doing in the I don’t give a shyt zone? 

 

I'm not depressed and I'm getting less "blue" moods. Pretty much getting back to my old chaos magick self. 

Belief is a tool, don't take it seriously. 

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psyche101
15 hours ago, Crikey said:

Heathens were running wild in ancient times so of course God had to bust their asses just like we trashed the nazis and Japanese..:D

Heathens were flying suicide missions at heaven? 

15 hours ago, Crikey said:

As for women, he's got their backs-

"Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love.." (Ecc 9:9)

"Control yourselves honourably, not in lust like the heathens" (1 Thess 4:4/5)

Jesus said to the snooty priests-"The prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you" (Matt 21:31)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below: Jesus to stone-throwing mob-"ON YER BIKES, she's with me! Hold your head up baby"

"Thanks JC, shall we go for a pizza?"

rel-Jesus-prossie.jpg

What religion are you talking about now? 

And tells daughters to seduce father's ...... :wacko:

 

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour."
Ephesians 5: 22-23

 

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness I permit no woman to teach or have authority over a man; rather, she is to remain silent."
1 Timothy 2: 11-12

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Sherapy
Just now, XenoFish said:

I'm not depressed and I'm getting less "blue" moods. Pretty much getting back to my old chaos magick self. 

Belief is a tool, don't take it seriously. 

You do seem chill, the only thing to me is that you are content.

I will always be interested in your journey, it’s not boring to say the least. 
 

How is the cabin coming?

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psyche101
15 hours ago, Crikey said:

Speaking of truth-

"..no lie comes from the truth" (1 John 2:21)

Jesus said:- "Everyone on the side of truth listens to me....I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 8:32,John 18:37,John 14:6)

 

Many Christians offer the truth. Evangelists are doing it all the time 

Proves talk is cheap  wouldn't you say?

 

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Xeno-Fish
Just now, Sherapy said:

You do seem chill, the only thing to me is that you are content.

I will always be interested in your journey, it’s not boring to say the least. 
 

How is the cabin coming?

I won't be starting the cabin till April or May. Doubt you'll be hearing all that much from me. I'm kinda disinterested in the petty arguments that pop up from time to time. 

Someone once told me that life is a story, we write it. We can make it any genre that we wish. But it's always based on the stories we tell ourselves. I've decided to write a better story, one that's more relaxed. Life's too short to stress myself out over things that really don't affect my life. 

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Sherapy
33 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

lol

it is the reverse

The world is as it is, and i just proved it with statistical facts. 

However I am as I am, despite the world being as it is.

This requires supreme optimism

I see ways forward and hope for humanity 

I do not get depressed, worried, or anxious. i do not get afraid lonely or suicidal

I think its more delusion than optimism if you can not see or appreciate the way the world is and why it has become so.

And perhaps because you live in one of the richest parts of the richest country in the world  and really only think about yourself and maintaining control in your own world

If so, you really don't have to know or think about the state of the rest of the world and thus don't have to be optimistic or pessimistic about it .

Your last statements are contradictory 

I know precisely how much you can do with money. I am the one who has given away over a million dollars during my working life to help others. i am the one who has used my own prosperity to care for many others who were homeless or could not care for themselves  (and in both i include my wife as my partner) 

That is my point.

Its not money or wealth but how you spend it  This is one of the true wisdoms of the bible.

You can spend your wealth on material things which, in the end,  after providing your basic needs, gain you nothing, or you can spend it on spiritual things like helping others, which, in the end, actually mean something and give you more happiness mental health  and satisfaction than material possessions 

It is not money but the LOVE of money which is described as a limiting evil in the world 

Not belittling just giving a different perspective  If  you  are lucky, and or you work hard, does that mean you are entitled to every thing you can buy. own or possess. and why do you feel you need all tha t ? 

After providing for material well being and comfort, so you are not hungry  cold wet or ill and your children are educated , no one NEEDS more to be happy and content. They just learn to WANT more 

If the people in  wealthy nations gave about 5% of their income/wealth then all poverty starvation and most curable illnesses could be eliminated right round the world.

it s not much to ask and anyone who refuses to must look carefully and carefully into what sort of person the y are and what their values are.

Maybe they don't care. Maybe it even gives them an excuse to blame god (even a god the y don't believe exists)  for the world's woes, and question believers as to why god would allow suffering to exist, when it was actually in their power to prevent most of it    

 


WTF.

This sounds like one of your preachy judgmental negative posts.

From just reading this it just sounds like you have some hostility towards those that live well.

I guess you needed to rant.

Geez, hope you feel better Walls. Maybe have Red Bull.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

She did and she had a little notebook of her most private thoughts. The Bible is  in one of those leather bound zippered book covers, where you can store things in the inner pockets. I also wear her cross. 
 

We prayed together before she lost consciousness and died, her favorite prayer was Hail Mary. 
 

 

 

Know it by heart from all the time my mother was in Saint Mary's Hospital. Despite everything and though she may have lost your respect for a time, she never lost your love. Blessed art thou among women, indeed.

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

People make up their own comprehension. That's what's being discussed. God can be a giant Charlton Heston in the sky. That's in the eye of the believer.

Precisely. They do not make up things they cannot comprehend. First it would be impossible; second what would be the point ? 

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Sherapy
16 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I won't be starting the cabin till April or May. Doubt you'll be hearing all that much from me. I'm kinda disinterested in the petty arguments that pop up from time to time. 

Someone once told me that life is a story, we write it. We can make it any genre that we wish. But it's always based on the stories we tell ourselves. I've decided to write a better story, one that's more relaxed. Life's too short to stress myself out over things that really don't affect my life. 

Excellent to hear, this is exactly the place I am at too. It is all about self care and I stay out of the things that bring the unwanteds. Your right life is to short.

It sounds like we both are at great places in our lives. 
 

As always love our conversations. :wub:

 

Edited by Sherapy
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psyche101
15 hours ago, Crikey said:

Think POLITICS mate..:D

When Christianity began snowballing in popularity after Jesus's execution, the snooty Jewish priests and the goofball Romans said - "Oops better not let on it was us who killed him, quick shred all the documents implicating us or we'll have a Jesusgate scandal on our hands. Let's airbrush him out of history and start hassling Christians, and people will soon quickly forget about him"..

But they didn't do that for other agitators who did what the biblical Jesus allegedly did? 

I don't think so 

Look, your really not thinking your answers through before you type them. Give it a go. 

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psyche101
15 hours ago, Crikey said:

For Christians, not a thing mate..:D

Oh wait...

Term-Crikey.jpg

I wasn't talking about Christians. 

Pull your head out of your religion for a moment and read what you are responding to please. 

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Sherapy
3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Know it by heart from all the time my mother was in Saint Mary's Hospital. Despite everything and though she may have lost your respect for a time, she never lost your love. Blessed art thou among women, indeed.

No, she never lost my love, she just could have made better choices and I had boundaries with her, which she honored.

The last 4 years of her life, she really stepped up as a mother and I have nothin but pride for her. 
 

Thank you for your kind words, John.:wub:

I know you sure loved your momma heart and soul, you were a son like no other. 

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Mr Walker
5 minutes ago, Sherapy said:


WTF.

This sounds like one of your preachy judgmental negative posts.

From just reading this it just sounds like you have some hostility towards those that live well.

I guess you needed to rant.

Geez, hope you feel better Walls. Maybe have Red Bull.

lol that is your perspective and your biases speaking, not mine  Prove that a single thing i said is incorrect. 

And  the derisive comments based on knowledge i gave you about my ( non) drinking habits :)  only reveals more of your own  nature.

  What are the y mean to do? make me angry or annoy me?  The y don't they just further my disappointment in you

The y are as pointless and impolite as if I called you  a "Chardonay Socialist "  

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psyche101
15 hours ago, Crikey said:

Think POLITICS mate..:D

When Christianity began snowballing in popularity after Jesus's execution, the snooty Jewish priests and the goofball Romans said - "Oops better not let on it was us who killed him, quick shred all the documents implicating us or we'll have a Jesusgate scandal on our hands. Let's airbrush him out of history and start hassling Christians, and people will soon quickly forget about him"..

You are kidding me right 

Try thinking. 

That has to be the poorest excuse for lack of evidence in this thread. Considering Walker is posting here, that's quite an accomplishment!!!

There is no reason they would do that. They killed him. They won according to the story 

Now your just being very silly 

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Hammerclaw
11 minutes ago, Sherapy said:


WTF.

This sounds like one of your preachy judgmental negative posts.

From just reading this it just sounds like you have some hostility towards those that live well.

I guess you needed to rant.

Geez, hope you feel better Walls. Maybe have Red Bull.

No! No more bull!

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Sherapy
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

lol that is your perspective and your biases speaking, not mine  Prove that a single thing i said is incorrect. 

And  the derisive comments based on knowledge i gave you about my ( non) drinking habits :)  only reveals more of your own  nature.

  What are the y mean to do? make me angry or annoy me?  The y don't they just further my disappointment in you

The y are as pointless and impolite as if I called you  a "Chardonay Socialist "  

Don’t you like Red Bull’s? Isn’t it something you treat yourself and enjoy, get delight from?
 

I truly hope as your day progresses you feel better.


All the best. :wub:

 

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