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Did Jesus Exist?

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eight bits
2 hours ago, Festina Lente said:

But it must not be forgotten that Justin Martyr often speaks of Apollonius, and the character and truthfulness of this good man are unimpeachable, the more in that he had good reasons to feel bewildered.

Please refresh my recollection of where Justin mentioned Apollonius of Tyana.

(Saving a step, possibly: Justin didn't write Questions and Answers to the Orthodox, and even if he had, that's not "often.")

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Festina

 

 

1 hour ago, Piney said:

My grandfather, a ancient history professor and Greek and Hebrew translator (Valentine Noel Jowett) theorized Moses never existed and the Exodus never happened in the 1950s.

Most Rabbinical Scholars and Israeli archaeologists agree with this. The Jewish ethnic identity developed "in situ" in the Hills of Canaan.

After many conversations with Israeli archaeologists and Rabbis at Princeton and Penn. I also agree with this.

A mythological cultural hero thrown over the distant memory of the Egyptian occupation of Palestine.

Which was written or amended during Ptolemaic rule. Yahweh came later.

In the era of Moses they would of still worshipped El like all the other Canaanites

I'm not a big fan of Josephus. I take from him what appears to be truth, but as a member of my people's Warrior-Religious caste, he disgusts me as a person. :lol:

I believe there was an Egyptian priest who called himself Moses.  I’m not the least bit surprised the rabbis are denying his existence.  

 

Edited by Festina Lente

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Piney
51 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

I believe there was an Egyptian priest who called himself Moses.  I’m not the least bit surprised the rabbis are denying his existence.  

Do you have any sources? As for Rabbis denying anything. I find them very open. American Evangelicals do get them a bit bent though.

I run on historical and archaeological facts. There are several members here who are extremely knowledgeable in Egyptology they can call on sources from their universities if you only have the names or references of the documents. 

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Festina
15 hours ago, Piney said:

Do you have any sources? As for Rabbis denying anything. I find them very open. American Evangelicals do get them a bit bent though.

I run on historical and archaeological facts. There are several members here who are extremely knowledgeable in Egyptology they can call on sources from their universities if you only have the names or references of the documents. 

Yes but there are several puzzle pieces and then one has to put them together.

Start here — do not judge.  Read like you know nothing on the matter. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osarseph

One most useful in setting the stage is to be found Josephus Against Apion Book two IIRC where he comments on Manetho the Egyptian historian who he criticizes.  It appears Jo was working with the original manuscript of which is now “Lost”.  Who lost it? :( I’ll see if I can find the excerpts without the authors commentary, It’s much easier to follow.  Give me some time, I think I saved it to notes.  

Make haste slowly.

Edited by Festina Lente

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Piney
27 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

the original manuscript of which is now “Lost”.  Who lost it? :( 

Do  you have any idead how many thousands of books were 'lost" since the First Century?  Burnt by Christians and Muslims? Destroyed in wars or accidental fires? 

There was probably around 200 Gospels alone belonging to the various sects of Christianity. 

31 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Start here — do not judge.  Read like you know nothing on the matter. 

In my personal opinion, I agree with this.

Quote

It is possible that Osarseph story, or at least the point at which Osarseph changes his name to Moses, is an alteration to Manetho's original history made in the 1st century BC when anti-Jewish sentiment was running high in Egypt, since without this Manetho's history has no mention of the Jews at all

 

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Festina
1 hour ago, Piney said:

Do  you have any idead how many thousands of books were 'lost" since the First Century?  Burnt by Christians and Muslims? Destroyed in wars or accidental fires? 

There was probably around 200 Gospels alone belonging to the various sects of Christianity. 

In my personal opinion, I agree with this.

 

 

I am well aware of the Incalculable number of books that were destroyed.  Everyone of great interest seems to have had their works “lost”, code for destroyed by some one.  What were they trying to hide and who were THEY in reality.  

Manetho’s story fits nicely into the Bible narrative as I will demonstrate later.

Who do you think created Judeo Christianity with its Jewish savior and so called Jewish apostles and so called Jewish Paul?  It was an idea that was created by some group with an agenda as nothing of this magnitude comes from nothing proportional.   It wasn’t pagans I can assure you of that.  The early Christian leaders were Jews, this we know, hence the Jewishness of the NT and it’s typology. So they had a daring idea —  “The pagans are getting out of hand,  let’s make a new religion with a Jewish savior that will appeal to them, to some extent, and force them worship our God by threat of the sword”.  Why?  More on this  later. 

This is is an interesting video.  As in all things I do not agree with all he states be he makes some excellent and useful points with regards to Flavius Josephus and how the NT was created using his works at a later date.  

https://youtu.be/4UqG8w7ezUQ

 

Edited by Festina Lente

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Piney
4 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

So they had a daring idea —  “The pagans are getting out of hand,  let’s make a new religion with a Jewish savior that will appeal to them, to some extent, and force them worship our God by threat of the sword”.  Why?  More on this  later. 

Nope, it was completely random. A group of teachings that became a "easy out" for bad actions and ideas and a way to gain personal power. Then a tool of control for the crumbling Roman Empire. 

 

12 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

I'm more than familiar with No Show (credentials) Joe.

Here's a blog from a former professor of mine.

https://ehrmanblog.org/conspiracy-nonsense-members/

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Festina
59 minutes ago, Piney said:

Nope, it was completely random. A group of teachings that became a "easy out" for bad actions and ideas and a way to gain personal power. Then a tool of control for the crumbling Roman Empire. 

 

I'm more than familiar with No Show (credentials) Joe.

Here's a blog from a former professor of mine.

https://ehrmanblog.org/conspiracy-nonsense-members/

Attwell's theses had no influence on my theory of conspiracy. I arrived at this on my own through long and careful unbiased study of observing past history with an emphasis on religions and cults, politics, the occult and current events via written material and inner guidance.  Information must be consumed and digested and not just memorized.  Complete agreement with anyone is dangerous, intuition is necessary.  I had no knowledge of Attwell or his work until I viewed the linked video.  It was forwarded to me by a friend two weeks ago. 

Bart Ehrman is an paid academic who likes to be noticed, I asked him a simple question to test his knowledge.  He could not answer, therefore he is either ignorant or a liar.  I’ll go with ignorance.  He is controlled opposition and teaches within the limits he has been placed by the institution that employees him.  I do not believe him to be a man who thinks for himself, he does what he told and collects his paycheck.  He wouldn’t dare rock their very unstable boat.  New York Times bestsellers in general are not useful when when one is seeking truth.  Not only are they moneymakers but their influence bodes well for the programmers of  the masses.  

I found  my notes on Manetho with Whistons notes as well.  I will make a few comments and post them later. 

There seems to have been a cosmic disturbance, one  than can be seen as an arbitrary substitution of an electron, which changed the spiritual nucleus of the earth and  Moses/Osarseph provided the catalyst.  

An Unexplained Mystery. To be sure.  

Edited by Festina Lente

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Festina
1 hour ago, Piney said:

Nope, it was completely random. A group of teachings that became a "easy out" for bad actions and ideas and a way to gain personal power. Then a tool of control for the crumbling Roman Empire. 

 

I'm more than familiar with No Show (credentials) Joe.

Here's a blog from a former professor of mine.

https://ehrmanblog.org/conspiracy-nonsense-members/

Do you believe in Magic?

Egypt, The Land Of Magic.  

:yes:

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Piney
9 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Attwell's theses had no influence on my theory of conspiracy. I arrived at this on my own through long and careful unbiased study of observing past history with an emphasis on religions and cults, politics, the occult and current events via written material and inner guidance.  Information must be consumed and digested and not just memorized.  Complete agreement with anyone is dangerous, intuition is necessary.  I had no knowledge of Attwell or his work until I viewed the linked video.  It was forwarded to me by a friend two weeks ago. 

Except neither of you not taking in account of the 200 plus Gospels and up to around 100 sects of Christianity that existed before Rome grabbed Paul's version and twisted it into it's own thing. 

13 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Bart Ehrman is an paid academic who likes to be noticed, I asked him a simple question to test his knowledge.  He could not answer, therefore he is either ignorant or a liar.  I’ll go with ignorance.

You have no proof of that. That pious fraud John Oakes claims the same thing yet he's the proven liar. Bart has no reason to lie either. 

14 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Information must be consumed and digested and not just memorized.  Complete agreement with anyone is dangerous, intuition is necessary.

I am a high functioning autistic savant who's scans show twice as many neuroreceptors firing twice as fast and like all autistic savants I have a built in BS detector.

Your starting to set it off

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Piney
4 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Do you believe in Magic?

I'm a multi-generational trained Shaman and Monk. 

I don't believe in it. I know how it works. 

5 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Egypt, The Land Of Magic.  

Pretty backwards bunch, even after the Greeks took it. 

The dummies couldn't even cure fungus's and stomach worms......

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XenoFish

Magic:lol:

No one around know anything about that.:whistle:

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cormac mac airt

I have to question, for a start, the name "Osarseph" since it's Koine Greek which only exisited from the 4th century BC and obviously ISN'T Egyptian placing its usage and likely its origin during the Alexandrian Period of Ancient Egypt and no earlier, all of which makes it irrelevant to the timeframe of the pharoah's Amenhotep.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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Piney
6 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I have to question, for a start, the name "Osarseph" since it's Koine Greek which only exisited from the 4th century BC and obviously ISN'T Egyptian placing its usage and likely its origin during the Alexandrian Period of Ancient Egypt and no earlier, all of which makes it irrelevant to the timeframe of the pharoah's Amenophis.

cormac

The OP is also placing Yahweh in the wrong time period.........I should of tagged you on this. :yes:

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Festina
20 minutes ago, Piney said:

I'm a multi-generational trained Shaman and Monk. 

I don't believe in it. I know how it works. 

Pretty backwards bunch, even after the Greeks took it. 

The dummies couldn't even cure fungus's and stomach worms......

Good.

Then you know magic can be used for evil purposes as well as good.

Do you have  contempt for ancient Egyptians?  

Todays medical industry can’t or refuses to cure the major ailments of humanity — cancer, arthritis, diabetes, hepatitis, kidney disease.  The psychiatric industry of mind shrinking does only that — Shrinks Minds — and is very profitable.  

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cormac mac airt
26 minutes ago, Piney said:

The OP is also placing Yahweh in the wrong time period.........I should of tagged you on this. :yes:

True since whether one tries to place Moses within the timeframe of Ramesses II or the earlier Amenhotep kings, which includes Akhenaten, they ALL predate the Biblical Yahweh. El would have been predominant in the land which was to become Israel and the Midianite Yahweh WOULD NOT have been merged with El at that earlier time. There's an awful lot of anachronism going on in the Biblical texts which really isn't unusual. 

cormac

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Piney
1 minute ago, Festina Lente said:

Then you know magic can be used for evil purposes as well as good.

Magic is about......

The Power of Intention

The Power of Suggestion

The Power of Deception

It can be used any way you want it.

3 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Todays medical industry can’t or refuses to cure the major ailments of humanity — cancer, arthritis, diabetes, hepatitis, kidney disease. 

:rolleyes:  Here we go. I'm linked up with the Harvard Center on Traditional Medicine. I know exactly why we can't.

6 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Do you have  contempt for ancient Egyptians?  

No, they just weren't that advanced as the woo slingers would leave you believe. 

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XenoFish
35 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Then you know magic can be used for evil purposes as well as good.

Magic is about language and symbolism, whatever might change a person's consciousness. A wizard gives his apprentice a magic stone that will protect him on his quest for grave dirt gathered at midnight. The rock is just a rock, but the belief in the effect of its "power" is solely within the mind of his student. It's a placebo effect. In a superstitious culture some thrown together artifact can trigger a nocebo effect cause a person to make themselves psychosomatically ill. Even a rumor of being cursed can create a nocebo effect. 

Belief is a tool. 

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Festina
17 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Magic is about language and symbolism, whatever might change a person's consciousness. A wizard gives his apprentice a magic stone that will protect him on his quest for grave dirt gathered at midnight. The rock is just a rock, but the belief in the effect of its "power" is solely within the mind of his student. It's a placebo effect. In a superstitious culture some thrown together artifact can trigger a nocebo effect cause a person to make themselves psychosomatically ill. Even a rumor of being cursed can create a nocebo effect. 

Belief is a tool. 

And gematria magic? Abc’s and  123’s?

The Bible seems to me a book of black magic.  Numbers and letters.  

 

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XenoFish
Just now, Festina Lente said:

And gematria magic? Abc’s and  123’s?

The Bible seems to me a book of black magic.  Numbers and letters.  

 

The bible is a frankenstein'd patchwork of various systems. The only "magic" in the bible save for lambs blood and magic staffs is prayer. 

A bit more on gematria so that you understand it better.https://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2013/06/on-gematria/

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Festina
52 minutes ago, Piney said:

Magic is about......

The Power of Intention

The Power of Suggestion

The Power of Deception

It can be used any way you want it.

:rolleyes:  Here we go. I'm linked up with the Harvard Center on Traditional Medicine. I know exactly why we can’t.

No, they just weren’t that advanced as the woo slingers would have lead you to believe.

Says who?  Be specific.

 

Osarseph/Moses was  a high priest and would have been trained in magic.  Yes? 

Edited by Festina Lente

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Piney
Just now, Festina Lente said:

Osarseph/Moses was  a high priest and would have been trained in magic.  Yes? 

Cormac just pointed out the name Osarseph was Koine and would date to the Ptolemaic Era and not before. 

2 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Says who?  Be specific.

Says me.

Bronze, the spoke wheeled chariot, advanced medical practices were all developed by Nomads and introduced to Egypt.

Stacking stones the way they did was just "common sense" architecture. They used a pit full of water to find "level". 

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Festina
8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

The bible is a frankenstein'd patchwork of various systems. The only "magic" in the bible save for lambs blood and magic staffs is prayer. 

A bit more on gematria so that you understand it better.https://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2013/06/on-gematria/

Thank you.

 

what do you make of this?

Was 9/11 a magic ritual?  23 Elul = 11 September.

 

 

“You have to understand there is a connection between the number 23 and the September 11th attacks. See here and herefor more about this.  The September 11th attacks = 23, add it up: 9+11+2+0+0+1=23. World Trade Center = WTC. W is the 23rd letter of the Alphabet, T is the 20th letter of the Alphabet, C is the 3rd letter of the Alphabet. So, WTC = 46 (Twin Towers.) 46-23= 23.

 

The Twin Towers were like the number 11 as they were standing side by side. The date of the attack: 11/9= 1+1+9=11. The sentence "September 11" consists of 9 letters and 2 numbers = 9+2=11. September 11th is the 254th day of the year= 2+5+4=11. After September 11 there are 111 days left to the end of the year.”

Is this a Sigil?

 

 

 

 

2BB1BDF7-C631-42BF-9E68-07C89E3428B4.jpeg

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Piney
2 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Is this a Sigil?

No, but the idea comes off as anti-Semitic.  

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onlookerofmayhem

giphy.webp

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